I shoot various types of M855 a fair bit in my ARs, and typically it will hold around 2" or so at 100 yards. Here's an example what I typically see. This is some PMC XTAC 62gr LAP, center target.





So recently I picked up some of those Federal American Eagle from Midway, the 120-round plastic box that resembles a small ammo can. This stuff is absolute dog-s h I t. It was so bad I initially thought my optic had puked, but shooting some handloads proved the glass was OK.

Here are two 10-shot groups at 100 yards, with two separate ARs that shoot generally well. The 16" HBar, floated, with a 1-6x24 with ACSS reticle, and the other is my new BCM 14.5" SOCOM upper, not floated, with a 5X prism with the ACSS reticle. Both shot from the bench.

The 16" HBar put 9 shots into 5 inches, one shot missed paper.

The 14.5" BCM put 10 shots into 4 inches.



I have to think this 'M855' must be loaded with bullets that failed QC or something. Anyway, just a heads-up.

Minute of barricaded bad guy.

Here's an article I found where different M855 is compared for velocity/accuracy. It's definitely not all the same. In this test, S&B and PMC came out ahead of the rest.

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2012/9/4/green-tip-accuracy-test/

Here's the meat and potatoes,

Interesting data here.

I'm curious as to the draw of green tip ammo though.

It doesn't seem particularly accurate. And it's not a hunting bullet per se... And anytime I engage someone with deadly force, I would probably want an expanding bullet.

Is it the steel core ?? That sounds typical for the steel core ammo. It was all about being environmentally safe since it did not have lead in it.

kwg

Try some of the IMI Israeli stuff.
Its accurate .
Their 67 gr razor core load is accurate also.

Kwg020
855 has a tungsten penetrator inside the tip of the bullet jacket.
Shaped like a tiny ice cream cone.
The rest of the jacket of the bullet is lead filled.
Not a bimetal jacket round with an actual steel core like the Soviet 5.45x 39 7n6.
If you cut the 855 about 1/4th" to 3/8ths" from the tip you can remove the penetrator.
Some nato countries use hard steel insted for the penetrator.

855 was designed as" humane" stable round for fast twist due to nato crap...

Much of the "killing and wounding" power of the m16 series of rifles has been neutered due to heavier bullets and faster twist rates and bullet design.


The AM EAGLE 855 120 and 150 plastic box stuff is grade 2 and 3 mostly 3.
It is 2 moa stuff even in grade 1.

IIRC it has powder weight variance of + or - 2grs on the start of
and end of runs on lots.
So you could have that amount of variance in powder charge in a lot run alone from start to finish.

Then throw into it am eagle is grade 2 and 3 stuff from various runs
And sold to the civilian market even though it is LC ammo.
Kinda like a box of chocolates espically with the 120 and 150 plastic boxes they can be a mix of various lots of mixed grade 2 and 3 stuff.

The 420 cans are the same lot number and grade 2 ammo.
That have been " rejected " for some reason...
Usually cosmetic issues or low end powder charge.

If I recall, that stuff really yaws in gelatin after several inches of penetration. Brassfetcher?

Keep in mind, "XM" mil surplus ammo is from lots that did meet spec for some reason and could not be delivered to military.

Well that kind of makes sense I suppose.

I like it because it's reasonably priced, and has a higher BC than the 55gr FMJ. Since I have a lot of opportunity to shoot past 500, I lean toward the M855 for the 'blasting ammo'.

If things go sideways, it's still ammo. Jack of all trades compromise round. No cool factor, but still nobody wants to get hit in the vitals with it.

I have tested dozens of lot #’s of military issued M855 “green tip”. Issued green tip averages between 4.5 and 6 MOA for ten round groups. The two most accurate lots of M855 I have seen has been TAA, and they averaged just over 3 MOA. Spec is 6.8 MOA Mean Radious.


The FBI’s ballistic research facility, Navel Crane, and Picatinny all have found the same.











To correct quite a bit of this-



No version of M855 has a tungsten penetrator. It is a copper jacketed, lead cored bullet with a mild steel penetrator.


M855 was not designed as a “humane stable round”. It was designed to penetrate a helmet at 600m from a M249 SAW.



The “killing and wounding power” of the M16 has not been neutered by heavier bullets and faster twists. Quite the opposite actually. The most terminally effective military issued 5.56mm round in history is M855A1. A lead free 62gr projectile that requires a faster twist to stabilize.

The M855A1 looks like a great round for the 5.56. Is there any truth to the tips damaging feed ramps?

Down to 1900 fps range still performing well on gel.

I can eat humble pie and stand corrected on points

Espeically coming from you Formadilous.

I respect your knowledge and experience.
And that is saying something coming from me
You are one of the very few on here I can honestly say that about.
And I ain't trying to flatter you.
We was told it was tungsten penetrators in 86 in Germany when we stated fielding A2,s.
I kinda disagree about your moa statement with lc 855
I have shot alot of it also I have never seen downrange feedback on Kd ranges larger than 3 moa at 100 with a good shooter 2 to 2.5 with excellent shooters
Average to poor shooters of course it can go up.

Are you basing that 6.8 moa acceptability on average strac standards service wide for accepted min standard of a 50% chance of a hit in a 19 inch circle at 300m?
My killing and wounding statement is based on the 193 tumbling and fragmenting and depositing its energy way easier versus the 855
Twist rates also have effect on driving force and stability in straight line and angles with path travel thru on impact. im sure you have ran 193 thru a m4 or a2 in ballistic gel and seen the results.
Those are straight line results into ballistic gel though.
Unless you have bone in the gel for additional results the test can be misleading.
Animal carcass test can yield the differences that cannot be seen in clear gel also.
Then throw gear on a body in what takes intial impact.
Ballistic gel can be misleading is what I am saying.
It is a intial base line that is about it.
Personally I have caused and seen the results 1st hand of both rounds on deployments
I would not want ta get hit with a 193 round versus a 855 especially on bone.
The 193 round will explode and deflect and tumble
855 rd will usually bust thru on its path and not deposit alot of shocking power or deposit all its energy into the enemy and keep on going.
shoot someone 3 or 4 times center mass spinal line they die, but not like with 193 that will fragment on bone with 1 or 2 shots in the same spot.
I know this 1st hand.
Then let's throw this out also
I would rather get hit with a 193 rd wearing body armour than an 855 also.

I retired in 08
Was outta the fight in 04.
Have no experience with the 855AI
But I have heard bad about it from guys I know still in up on Post
Heard it fragments to early penetration wise and loses energy fast in a body and still taking 3 to 4 shots to put the enemy down at times.
And have also heard "green" reasons drove the pony behind that round.

To be honest soldiers say they hate the 855AI bullet

That is just what I have heard.....

I have always thought a 67 to 72 grain bullet at 2750 to 2800 ish would be much better along the lines of a tipped barnes or Tipped Israeli Razor core.
A heavier well constructed expanding round would increase the killing / hitting power of the m4.
That is the solution.
And to be really honest a 243 platform with 90 gr would be better and the weight difference would be insignificant for same basic load.
Jmo.

But ya gotta remember in all of this you have Congress creatures with vested interest in their districts and retired officers and the defense industry involved in all of this.
Side note
We all heard the stamped mild steel Russian helmet at 600 back in the day also. Not being snarky saying that.

Aside from your points you brought up and I'm sure they are based on hard data .


But a test enviorment versus a real world enviorment and conditions are 2 different things.








Heard alot of stuff in my 24 yrs in the Infantry also I geuss.
Heard alot of stuff in ammo67 also I geuss.

I can vouch for the fact that M855 penetrators are steel. I have a cup full of them somewhere on my desk. Pickups from the pits. I believe it's M855A1 that utilizes a tungsten alloy penetrator.

M855 and precision rifle fire are not used in the same sentence very often, but I've participated in the USMC CIAP where issued A2's and issued LC M855 was shot in competition. I can tell you that there were a couple of hard holding Marines that were cleaning the 5-V Baker targets at 500 yards with that combo. That would be a 20" 5 ring, 20 shots, slung up, slow fire prone through the irons, in the wind. Vee counts weren't anything to write home about, but it showed me that if you could find the center of your group, stay ahead of the wind, and execute good marksmanship, you could stay clean on a 4 MOA bull. I'd guess the ammo/gun combo was holding 3 to 3-1/2 MOA for 20 shot strings. These guys spanked some civilian Master Class shooters running 80's at 500 on the same target on a practice day. I was running the line. I'll let ya'll debate what that converts to for 10 shot strings, or if you had the opportunity to scope and bench the M16's. ...but Green Tip ain't super terrible. That said, I'll take Mk262, Mk318 or M855A1 any day given a choice.

Oh yeah, I think Fackler will tell you that M855 at high velocity will bend and fracture at the canneleure and fragment after that. For the number of penetrators and jacket fragments that I found in the pits (from berm shots etc) I would tend to believe it.

We have a guard fella shooting service rifle. The first shoots of the year were at 600yds and he was using M855 stuff he got from his unit. He was making it work but barely. I told him to buy some CBC/mag tech ammo loaded with 77 Sierra's. His scores improved dramatically.

Yes. The hardened steel tip chatters feed ramps and the “chamber face” in HK 416’s. It also wears barrels and bolts out twice as fast as legacy ammo. Magpul Gen 3 Pmags (only them) solved the reliability and feed ramp issue mostly, but barrel and bolt wear is a thing.







Nothing meant by my post either. Just trying to make sure correct information gets passed.



All rounds 5.56, 7.62, 300WM, 50 cal- all of them can and will take multiple lethal rounds to incapacitate someone unless the CNS is sufficiently damaged. Some people drop from on 22LR to the foot, others takes multiple 50 cal rounds to the torso and are still fighting. Unless you disrupt the CNS- it’s nothing but a timer and you don’t know what that time is. The more tissue that is damaged, all else being equal, the faster incapacitation occurs.


M855A1 has issues, but terminal ballistics isn’t one of them. It features zero neck length, fragments early and exceptionally for 4-6 inches, has a massive operational velocity window, the tip penetrates 9-13 inches, the plug generally between 18-22 inches straight line. If you have a gun that shoot M855A1 well (there is one) then it is one of the best soft tissue projectiles available on the market.




Without going in-depth the short version is the both M193 and M855 are extremely velocity dependent. Both were made to work from 20” barrels and when you use them from 14.5” barrels they are both on the edge of being below required velocity to fragment when they tumble.


As for ballistics gel- since 2001 there has been more actual true study on terminal ballistics by working groups led by surgeons, agencies, terminal ballistitions, and operational personel. In more than 30,000 shootings, properly calibrated 10% Ballistic gel using FBI protocol has repeatedly shown to have a high correlation to actual shootings.




Precision of M855- the required spec for M855 and A1 is 6.8 MOA MR. That means when tested each Lot # must meet that spec. Most are better- again on the order of 4-6 MOA extreme spread. I don’t know what to tell you on the accuracy that you’ve seen. Every single test done by credible sources has shown the M855 is 4-6 MOA ammunition when shooting statistically relevant shot group sizes, and when NOT throwing any shots out. The FBI Ballostic Research Facility conducted a test on two Lot #’s of M855A1. Group sizes from multiple barrels ranged between 5.72” to 6.99” for 3x10 round groups.











Issued M855A1 uses a hardened steel arrow head tip, not tungsten.


I would be hesitant to try and decipher precision from field shoots with the variability inherent. I too have cleaned the 500 with green tip in a match, the 20 round group was about 12-13 inches. Thing was, on a bench that exact same lot of Greentip was 4.5 MOA from my gun consistently. Variables and random chance is what that group was. Early lots of M855A1 loaded on the old machines were 2.5-3 MOA ammo for 9 shots out of 10. Current ammo loaded on the real machines is 4-6 MOA just like M855.

Well if 4-6 moa is typical, that would put my groups right in that window.

I'm out of PMC XTAC 62gr LAP right now, but it has always done 2-3 moa, with 80% under 2 moa.I'm going have to get some more of the PMC stuff and do some side-by-side tests with the Federal AE XM855.

Back in my USMC days we transitioned from the M16A1/M193, to the M16A2/M855.

After the transition, requal scores took a significant increase across the board. So much so, that the scores for the ratings of Expert/Sharpshooter/Marksman were raised.

With the A2/M855, I have clear memories of the good shooters putting all ten rounds in a sub-10 inch group at the 300 Rapid Fire stage, prone/loop sling. Down in the butts, those groups were often covered with the 10-inch spotter meant for the 500 line.

It was my understanding that one round went all steel with a copper jacket. Could that be the M-855A1 ?

kwg

Early lots of M855 was more accurate as the TAA ammo attests. After 9/11 precision requirements we’re loosened to keep up with demand.









M855A1 is a copper jacketed bullet with a solid copper plug in the base, and a steel arrowhead tip. It’s a three part projectile.

Ah, ok that makes sense then.

So it seems the current accuracy standards on the M855/XM855 is really no better than Russian steel-case blaster ammo in 5.56 or 7.62x39.

Just for the sake of the audience - a 6.8 MOA Mean Radius is a HELL of a lot bigger than a 6 or even 6.8 MOA extreme spread. Imagine a target where every shot was exactly 6.8 MOA from the group center. What you would see is a circle of shots 13.6 minutes in diameter, a group with an extreme spread of 13.6 MOA.

Formidolosus,
You're the guy in the know and I appreciate the sharing. I agree that my anecdote about M855 scoring well is a statistical artifact. ...it was interesting nonetheless that the experienced riflemen were able to center up and still put them down the middle where everyone else was complaining about poor accuracy.

Questions about A1; The early press releases were about M855A1 utilizing a composite tungsten slug behind the steel penetrator. Not true? There were also later bits about the hazards of tungsten potentially dooming 855A1. On the match accuracy front, there was a bit of hoopla about 7 or 8 years back where Rob Harbison, former AMU Olympic shooter was drafted out of his retirement by Picatinny to shoot at Camp Perry across the course with M855A1 and turned in some very respectable scores. More than respectable for someone shooting a mag length round all the way across to 600 yards. Hand picked lot? Pre production with high QC?

Form, I have a question. Knowing that M855A1 is so hard on guns, why do they continue to load it so hot?

Probably trying to get rifle velocity out of the M4.

I too seen the same jump in accuracy from a1,s to a2,s from entry in july 83 then going to Carson till early 86 and getting an A2 in germany.
In summer of 96 they started fielding m4,s to sqd leaders and above when I was a wpn sqd leader in the 187th
It pissed me off actually cause I had reach out and touch someone with a A2 and also designate targets long range with it with a nice long sight lenght/ radius.
Big difference in a 20 versus 14 inch barrel .
Eventually by early 98 every infantryman had a m4 in the 101st.


I prefer the A2 till this day.
But i also wanna put together ( notice how I didnt say build) a m4 w/socom Barrel for it stiffness just ta see how it runs.

We was actually getting ammunition at times in oif 1
Canadian and Israeli 855.
Pita retweaking zero,s on the fly during down time.

Haji set a huge fire in the brush by the division asp up by the airfeild in Mosul in early June 03
Schit was cooking off for about 7 hrs
Everything from small arms to 105,s
We had to redistribute ammo across the board division wide to even everyone out or prioritize for need based on unit mission.
Going from double basic load for each wpn system on hand and turning "extra" in really was a gut punch.
At times we was down to 90 rds of 5.56 per man
Saw and 240 ammo got real critical being used up for about a week.
They had ta ass rape the rear echelon units for ammo for the 3 Inf bde,s even after the initial redistribution.

It was a relief to resupplied after about 10 days.

Fortunately during that time no one was killed or wounded in my company due to lack of ammo.

I was in on OIF1 also. 2d Marine Expeditionary Brigade, aka TASK FORCE TARAWA. We went in on the first day of the invasion. An Nasiriyah, Al Amarah, Al Kut, and some other places along the way.

Lots of shortages. Low ammo, water, food. For a while we were only getting 1 MRE per day. My stomach was already tight, so I didn't notice the lack of food…..grin.

Great memories.

Shortly before D-Day, at a meeting, I suggested that those of us with pistols should swap them out with rifles of those staying in the rear party, in northern Kuwait. The officers looked at me like I had a dick growing out of my forehead.

Wasn't long before everyone was carrying an M4 in lieu of a pistol. I was out of there by then.

I got a hold of about 8 boxes of fmj 55 grain bullets made by Remington and they shot all over the place.

On a whim i weighted them and most were lighter than 55 grains.

Problem was one couldn't tell where the weight came from;nose side or what.

I think i have a box left just to look at,they sucked.

I have a buddy who is a tanker he talked about how he rat holed 10k rounds of 7.62 in his tank. I forget how much 50 cal that had on hand.

Yep .... wouldnt change any of em for anything.

My company got attached to C co 1/ 72nd armored.
Our battalion and theirs got broke down into double company task forces like that.
We went thru Najaf, Karbala, al hilla, we fugged up alot of haji,s/ fedeyeen .
Went to baghdad after you guys and the 3rd ID did all the thunder runs. Stayed their about 2 weeks.

Then we went to Mosul for 7 months .
My company was the city center armed goons/ vice cops 3 platoon combat out post.
Never got rotated out like the rest of battalion and brigade . power vacuum schit....
We took kia,s and wia,s but dished out 10x more on them mutha fugga,s


All for fugging nothing now..... looking back on it......
The Chinese have oil exploration rights in iraq....
Cock sukka,s got mineral exploration rights in Afghanistan also....

Dude whenever I needed 7.62 for my 240,s I just went to sgt Howell in "war pig" C3 and got as much as I needed.
They always wanted grenades.
They learned a lesson in Karbala
About haji wanting to hitch a ride and asking their buds in other tanks to hose fugga,s off em .
Hahahaha!!!

Looking at ya like ya had a cock growing outta your forehead.


Lmfao!!!

I was a platoon sgt
Carried an m4 , 9mm in an underarm holster with 6 mags for it.
12 mags between my pouches and buttpack for the m4.
4 pds C4 , 6 grenades, belt of 240 cause I was with the tail gun in movement which most times came forward to maneuver with assualt element sqd or sqds.
All your fighting load schitt chow water clotting bandages , 3 iv,s
With starters.
My fugging pl and sqd ldrs,s and Joe's knew I would do anything they had to do.
I ran that platoon , raised up a 2lt under fire to be an excellent officer and leader.
He has a battalion command at ft drum last I heard.
I'm sure he tells real world stories about his platoon,s actions and people he had.

Which is good, cause experience needs to be passed on.
Been that way since valley forge.
Happened for me as a private at Carson with my 1st sqd ldr ssg earl Dunn black dude from NYC
173rd vet. He seen something in me .
I learned alot from that man.
To this day I will never forget how to set up a mechanical ambush with a claymore, commo wire, mre spoon and a 9v battery.
Also told me to read 7- 70 manual while taking my morning schit and you learn and not even know it till you need it.

I loved my platoon like kid brothers and sons.
We took 4 Kia and 11 wia during our year.
But dished out way fugging more than what we got.

I live a peaceful life now.

I fired 4 rds during desert storm.
Oif 1 probably upwards of 1500.

Another bud was a tanker in 3ID he would tell this story when they were taking small arms fire from this house in some chit hole village. He said they spun the turret put a cannister round and let her go. Then he starts laughing like a deviant kind of laugh and said that whole ph ucking house was gone leveled. And he just kept on laughing.. good ol Iraq 2003 was the wild ph ucking west.

We went in Najaf with 72nd tank behind a ww1 style rolling artillery barrage about 650m behind the rounds.
ROE was kill any adult Male wearing black.
I shot 2 dikheads using cell phones on roofs calling in 82,s on us in a school house the m1,s breached for us with the main gun.
Rounds stopped after that.
My mg team was pissed at me cause I didn't let them engage the dikheads.

North west side of Karbala when our other 2 battalions flushed the toliet bowl in that place after a week of us all "clearing" the place.
Our battalion and all of the brigades Dco/ tow companies set up blocking positions out of the city.

Fugging Turkey shoot.
It was basically a calfax
Apaches, tows, 50 cal, mk 19, line dog IN plt systems.
My javelin crews got in some shots on toyota,s filled up with haji,s.
Probably 250 300 dead trying to leave that place that day.

Iraqi army was fugging nonexistent ....
They fugging changed clothes and went home.
These were mostly fedeyeen foriegn types.

I gotta take a picture of a picture from Karbala

Hahaha!!!

Thinking about karbala.
I had ta dig this picture out.
We assualted this fortified school house the day prior.
Bradley's pretty much did it with the 25,s.
We went in cleared the building found 3 Kia pretty well chewed up.
Had some down time the next day.
I went and took a dump in a room .
Found some fugged up helmet in a corner
Went and told spc shields a javelin gunner to get his camera and just be ready and stand right their
Grabbed my pro mask went inside put my sand filled dusty as fugg pro mask on and the fugged up Darth Vader looking helmet and made my appearance.

Lmfao!!!
My company commander and pl, Cpt Stanton and Lt Hobbs
Are behind shields dying laughing
SPC Evan's is on the right, my rear 240 gunner
One of my sqd ldrs ssg howdakowski on left.

Good times!!!!!

Then 1st Armor Division was coming to Iraq late 2003 to save it, from itself. The division at the time with the most experience at peace keeping (bosnia). Then chit spiraled out of control soon after, roe went to shoot at anyone that looks like a threat etc. we had to my log pac runs from Baghdad to Kuwait every month. We roll into camp Doha at 2300 hit the midnight chow hall. Looking like refugees, dcus faded, nasty. Meanwhile camp Doha finest in pressed uniforms setting next to us. We start talking about the run down from Baghdad. They would always get and move somewhere else. I remember msr Tampa when the 82d airborne showed up roms (refuel on the move sights) set up connex with the 82d logo. Then 4th ID finally showed the Ivy in full display. It was truly an eye opening experience to see the worlds most powerful army storied divisions show up in one big ol chitty chit hole. For the party

I recall on our way out of there we got a ride from Al Kut to Kuwait on a Marine Corps C-130, then after some delay, we took Marine CH-53's back out to the mother ship (LHD3 USS Kearsearge).

We were filthy of course, and during our few hour delay in Kuwait the USAF invited us to eat in their chow hall. It was awesome, like a stateside buffet or something. Really clean and classy. I'm surprised they even wanted us in there, but I have to say they were really giving us good hospitality. The USAF were clean and tidy...I think they felt we were some kind of savages they were not accustomed to...….kinda funny.

Incorrect. "XM" is just a designation that Federal uses for some ammunition. All CBP ammo is marked XM40. It's not that XM855 doesn't meet spec, it's just that it was never inspected by the govt because when the military has enough, Federal/LC just keeps running the line and packaging it for civilians.

This is what I've seen as well, it wasn't loaded to spec to begin with..usually it isn't as hot nor does it have the black sealant on the bullet, some of it doesn't even have sealed primers. Why they bother to crimp it is beyond me.

Sounds like you guys were at Ali al Saleem air base, for your short visit. Later on in the war in Iraq all service member going on R&R went through Ali al Saleem.

Hey Montana Marine, in case I missed you before, thanks for your service.

W. Bill
United States Navy

And same back to you!

No, real current Russian ammo is good for about 90% of rounds going into 7-9 MOA extreme spread. Most M855A1 is good for 90% going into half that.

Out of certain a certain URG it’s damn near MK262 precision.






That is correct. That is “allowable”. But, the worst I’ve seen is 7-8 MOA extreme spread for 3x10 round groups.






Since inception the EPR project (Enhanced Performance Round) has had at least three major design revisions. The final, and issued round is copper jacket, solid copper plug, exposed steel tip.


Early lots of M855A1 were around 2.5 MOA ES from rack grade guns. From 1-9” twist NM service rifles it would do about 90% of rounds sub 2 MOA. The army and military as a whole are still BS’ing everyone with what the pre mass production ammo did. Issued ammo does not do that from either one of those setups.






M855A1 is a long and complicated road. Rest assured it had nothing/very little to do with finding an improved anti personnel round, and everything to do with politics, cronyism from military engineers, and poor ignorance. Penetration of mild steel was the military’s “ballistic” engineers goal. Well that and not adopting the superb joint SOCOM/USMC SOST 62gr Barrier Round. They needed the high velocities (high pressures followed) to meet the steel penetration “requirement”. Of course the fact that mild steel penetration is not, and never has been a requirement or request from end users didn’t stop the kinetic energy idiots from pushing only that.


That it actually features significantly increased terminal ballistics was a total accident.


As to why they continue to issue it inspite of it’s MANY significant issues is pure politics. The army strong armed the USMC into accepting it and dropping SOST using Congress. They have consistently mislead everyone as to its real capabilities. There is no way they will admit all the fraud waste and abuse that happened with EPR.





If you’re in a conventional or General SOF unit:

1). The good news is that if you hit, it has very good terminal ballistics. Far and away better than any issued 7.62mm except M80A1.

2). It’s working pulically known velocity range is unlimited to 1,900fps.

3. It is generally slightly more consistent than M855.



The bad news for those people-

1). Precision is quite poor in ALL normal barrels and uppers. Hitting vital organs past 100-120 meters is not consistent.

2). It is exceedingly hard on barrels and bolts- 4-6,000 rounds on average max.

3. In any magazine but Gen 3 Pmags, reliability is compromised.

4). Still lot to lot inconsistent.





There was not a bigger critic of A1 than I for years because it fails on so many points. However, there is a single system that addresses all of the issues, and allows A1 to produce extremely good precision- like 3 MOA for 100 round groups good. That combined with its excellent terminal ballistics makes it a formidable loading. Unfortunately very few will be able to use that system, and therefore it still has significant problems as a general purpose load.

Sarcasm= It shouldn’t hurt the Mini 14’s accuracy then.

Politics in the DOD procurement system......
No way............


What wpn are you talking about?

Buncha post back you seemed to be speaking of a specific wpn system also.


????
Inquiring minds wanna know.

Yet, instead of improving the accuracy of the load to make it "longer range", they want to go to a whole new round...

Lewis Machine & Tool Monolithic Rail Platform.



New Colt M4A1 Barrel in a return to battery rest-






LMT MRP-

I remember that change fondly. Really liked the A2 and the heavier bullets.

Regards, Guy

How do the various 556’s compare in terminal performance in the M4? Just curious if anyone has heard from guys in the know?

16" CL put into the lmt???
Chrome lined barrel? What brand????


The Lmt Mrp
Is it a
Forged billet and then Machined
Or cast billet and then machined


I can see why unca suga dont wanna adopt it full blown.

Average Joe proof, average Joe maintenance
and cost...
Probably can get 3 or 4 m4,s vs the cost of a lmt wpn.

That was just one. 10.5”, 11.5”, 14.5” and 16” have all been tested. Multiples of each. The all shoot like that.


LMT makes their own barrels. The MRP is a monolithic upper and hand guard. It requires a different barrel extension. Their barrels are very good, the most consistently accurate barrel/upper that I have seen in lots of testing, have an angled gas port,stress relieved, and user level quick change barrels.

They make an enhanced bolt and carrier that greatly extends the bolt life. Don’t know what it is yet, as the most I have on one is 40,000+ M855A1 rounds on it and is still fine.

The MRP is without question the most durable M4 upper reciever group on the market.


Price is about like all other top tier offerings- around $1,200-1,400 an upper.

LMT 10.5” barrel. 30 rounds of M855A1, 100 yards mag monopoded prone. Fired in 60 seconds.

Gawt damm dude !!!
I thought I had a good job as a contractor running small arms ranges on ftcky after I retired and being around Joe's still.
Never boring , always new.


You got the dream job man!!!!
Where are you at?
Anniston
Aberdeen
Tobyhanna
LC
Dugway ( still exist???)

Formidilous
I gotta mess with ya a little man....

100m /109yds
20 shots, open sights
Bench and bag
Less than a minute ( actually around 45 or 50 seconds)
Last 6 to 7rds heat mirage and fuzzy front sight.



Done with this
Gordon Tech assembled
Arsenal SLR 100H
wolf polyformance 123gr hp ( barnual actually)
And I ain't bullschitting one bit.

Same here. My rifle qual scores went from the 220's to the 240's.....from low Expert to high Expert.

That might be it. I couldn't remember the name of the place, but that sounds vaguely familiar.

My 7.62x39 is the AR upper. It's not bad either. TulaAmmo 122gr FMJ, 81 yards, 3X optic. I was sitting on my butt leaning against the truck tire, sending them at a fairly quick cadence.

I saw some of the m855a1 for sale at $2.00 a round. I guess I will have to suffer through with 90 cents a round 62 grain fusion or .70 cents a round 62 grain gold dot.

Any idea what makes it so much more accurate than an M4? Usually, those Colt CL barrels shoot pretty good, often under 1 MOA for 5 or even 10 rounds of match ammo.

Just for a general throw it out their.
I wish I had kept pics of targets i shot with the C39V2 I had when they 1st came out.
( had ta have one)
Very accurate rifles.
Problem is soft and hard metal issues not playing well with each other.
Rak1 hammer is extremely hard , but overall the trigger is excellent.
It mushrooms the bolt tail and also does the same to the tail on the carrier.
The lugs on the bolt wear and shave edges also.
The green mountain barrel is excellent but ya cant run it hot for long
sessions or else the rifling will erode and literally sections of lands will cease to exist.
By hot I mean 3 to 5 30 rdmag dumps back to back for several shooting sessions when your having fun with it.

I sold mine off fast once these issues started showing from peoples reveiws and postings on other sites before the mad rush to get rid of em started.
Mine had way too premature wear on the bolt tail ,carrier tail and bolt lug wear.
Barrel was fine.
And that was with around 750 rds thru it.
It was time for it to go. Unacceptable......
The market is full of used C39V2,s people are trying to dump now.
However there is a fix if anyone is interested in a new one/ lightly used at reasonable price,dont pay more than 500 used or 625 new.
Most people selling em know exactly why they need to get rid of em.
Inspect the barrel very close and pay attention to the intial area of the leade and 1st couple inches of rifling.
Any grotesque erosion in that area in a used one.
Dont buy it....

Random/ circle 10 has a properly forged heat treated carrier and bolt with telescoping rod and spring kit out their now for a little over 225ish for the C39V2.
Go figure.......
But ya still have that green mountain barrel on the gun.
Just dont go batschyt crazy on back to back mag dumps and the gun will be fine.

Just an FYI for anyone looking at em or contemplating one.

Anyone looking at a upgradeable entry level AKM platform
Look at the wasr 10 with synthetic or laminate stock
Or the PSA GF3.
The wasr 10 ain't the old crooked everything wpn it was prior to 2013ish era gun.
If you can hands on select the best one out of 3 or 4. They are a gun to get with all the proper components that count.
Forged trunnions, forged carrier and bolt ,chromelined hammer forged barrel.
700ish nib
575 625 ish used in vg

PSA Gf3 syn stock for 559 nib is gtg
475 in vg used
Ain't got a chf barrel but is still gtg

My AK is a type 3 milled, ain't got a mount on L/S of receiver like AKM,s.
Been contemplating a rear sight replacement block mount for a optic.
Something like a 2 moa dot and use a crisp setting 12 oclock dead on hold zero (top of the dot) on it for 100m.

Dunno...........

I'm afraid I don't speak AK47 with any fluency, but I did note you had a milled receiver there.

I've shot them here and there along the way. Been tempted to dive in, but it hasn't happened just yet.

If ya ever gotta scratch the itch
New or used
Shoot me a pm.
I will give ya some input.
You would be GTG with a new wasr10 lam or syn or a VG older wasr 10/63 with threaded barrel.

If ya hear someone knows someone who needs cash and has one of those.
Time ta jump on it.
Benjamin's speak to people who need em.

I'm always keeping my ears open and talking to people in pawnshops , gunshops , sporting goods stores, keeping my eye on TN armslist daily.
Ready to buy at any time.
Espically state resident to resident and no 4473 involved.

Only ever shot an AK once. A former cp-worker had one at the range when
my girls were with me, he offered to let them shoot a mag. I shot a couple.
No idea on grouping ability, but claybirds at 100 yards were pretty easy offhand.
I didn't expect to hit any, from what you hear they are like shotguns.

That one wasn't.

I thought any off the shelf AR style was/is the most accurate platform ever made for delivering 5.56 to the enemy. With ant bullet weights and or style. Sarcasm.

I flew over a very large copper mine in southern Ghazni provence in 09 owned by the Chinese

kwg

So, YOU are the guy that gave away our position...

Which position ??

kwg