This rifle is maybe 20 years old. (Feels funny saying that, time does fly)

colt hbar and it has worn many different optics/options over the years

I have left it this way for maybe 7 years now and will keep it.

Redfield Olympic, adjustable diopter with Redfield x-tube and Redfield international front sight with orange insert

Enjoyable to shoot this way. Scopes are fun but I really enjoy these types of optics a bit more

Neat. How did you sort the mounting out?

Front uses a barrel clamp set up with a dovetail mount that is vertically adjustable . Xtube and rear sight use a rail to dovetail adapter.

those hand grips hurt our hands. Never saw anyone use em much after the first flurry came out.

Love the sights.

We never were allowed fancy like that, in service rifle, just some tweaking to a standard rear sight and front post use. Those sights almost seem like cheating. Scopes really seem like cheating. LOL

Definitely if the target is round, it is like cheating

To me, even if its not round, circles line up and you put what you are after center of circle. Eye wants to do that automatically. AND you get to see all around the target too, you aren't blocking part of the view with a big post.

I will have to try it
Generally I’m just shooting circles and enjoy the Redfield type sites and concentrically smaller circles. Frankly I like shooting that way better than with a scope from a fun standpoint

I like it, thanks for sharing. The front has interchangeable inserts, which makes it cool. Like rost said, its kind of "like cheating", not allowed in service rifle matches, I bet. But, I'm sure at my club, when we have our "ar rifle shoots", it might pass. I also like the front sights and use the circle inserts in my 22 match rifles. Everyone else at my club uses those sights on their 22 target rifles and its hard to compete against those guys without them.



I might just have to see if I can work up some sights like those since I don't have an iron sighted AR for my clubs shoots...Thanks for the idea there..

L-train Most folks in service rifle are dumping irons and going to scope we can use up to 4.5x for service rifle.

Yeah, I figured that. I'm glad you commented, since you shoot service rifle. In todays matches, would an iron sight, such as the op's, be allowed in service rifle matches?...

Before scopes, the Right Sight was set to take over the match rifle world.

Yep, still allowed as far as I've heard. You simply won't be as competitive though so you are kinda forced into a 2500 dollar scope if you want to compete at the top levels. Would have cost me around 5K since the wife shot with me. But we'd have figured it out and carried on.

Have you tried the clear front apertures? I like them MUCH more than the metal ones for some reason.

I have, i have more experience w metal. I should try more of the clear. This is the only orange one that I have and I like it

Looks like you've been messing around with time jumping, made yourself a loop and wound up filching an AR from a Victorian gentleman's gun room.

Man, I bet thats a blast to shoot. Very cool.

I bought some iron sights because of this thread. Ill post results in the black rifle challenge here. Im hoping they work out well.

Cheap irons often don't track...

That said cheap irons can be used like Leupolds. Set and forget. Shoot for group not accuracy.

I don't need anything too fancy, just something to beat the other guys at my club with... A couple of them have some pretty damn fine H Bar's, but their antiquated military sights are just that. We will see how well these "cheap" sights do after I get them.. I'm going to be putting them on my Noveske, and it is probably my least accurate ar, besides my Armalite AR10T 308w. These ar's are still a learning experience for me and it will be interesting to see how these new sights do. I'll post up results, but don't worry rost, I'm likely not going to touch your score, unless you piss me off.

my score. Whoopee doopee... it sucked anyway. LOL

SO lets see some real [bleep]. What does it take to piss you off?

Just a scope lackey, no clue how to shoot with irons you are. I bet you can't even break 1.5 moa with irons much less. MOA. Sure can't do it out to 600. Heck anyone that uses a scope just sucks anyway. You aint' a REAL shooter.

LMAO.

So silent I had to put my earplugs in.... crickets are loud...

I use a scope and will gladly admit I suck.. Hell iron sight shooters are going the way of the dinosaur. When i started shooting last year, majority of service rifle guys were shooting irons. By the end of the season all of them switched to a scope. That 4.5x scope out to
600yds does help, but you still need to do your part. I need find my score when I shot service rifle last year. Found it shot a 176.. I hope we can get our season going this year

Oh, were you talking to me

score wise, it should be much easier to shoot 200s with that 4.5x scope for two reasons. One you are same focal plane so no aiming errors. Two you SHOULD be able to see more of the wind shifts/changes etc.... instead of praying to find a flag to watch thats accurate. I find mirage is ok, but if the wind is slow enough that mirage is good to read, then there really is not that much wind to worry about. Plus mirage can be a bit late too... thats why if I have my pick I want a flag showing the wind before it gets to my bullet... not after or at.

You would think it would easier.. we have flags all the way down the line for our shoots 100yd line, 300yd, 500 and 600yd. I watch mirage but I pay more attention to the flags. When you get back to Alaska you are more than welcomed to hit one our club shoots and give it whirl with my set up.. well if we ever get a season going..

That would be easier on me for sure. I don't have one setup.

Dang thing is this year it will be balls to the wall like last I think. But you never know. Though when fishing we fish 7 days a week...Will just have to see. I would love to shoot again for the heck of it.

Just being able to see clearly even with low X will be a plus to eyes I think. And should be able to see changes a bit while on the sight, which is tough on irons.

That said I've always tried to shoot flags, but then again you don't always have the flags you need, but if you have flags to 600 on EACH side of the range you can usually find one that tells the truth.

I suspect I would have to start all over on wind knowledge and shooting skills, but doesn't bother me. I'm used to starting at the bottom.

Rost, I've heard the saying that mirage is "wind in real time". Generally you can use mirage with a higher power scope, but a 4.5 won't pick up on it as much.. True? Hey, you will get a kick out of those sights I bought. Can't wait to get them on my Noveske and test them out. Waiting for them to be delivered... You are a good guy to have around, so we can pick your brain a little on this competitive shooting jazz... I was with the girlfriend today, shooting a long anticipated dueling tree that I was dragging my feet on making. I don't know why? Only 2 hours extra time at the shop lastnight, while the GF watched me weld and cut... We had a blast with our pistolas today..


Did a little rifle shooting too, while we were at the range. You know what I'd love to see is how well the OP's rifle shoots with those sights. I think they are pretty cool...

J, my club is going to have a shoot next saturday. Then we will have a rimfire shoot on the following saturday. Looks like they may be lifting some of the bans coming up here in May... Hopefully they open up your range soon too...

I don't like mirage as much as flags. It can be real time, but its so finicky, all the changes I can see in it, getting thicker, thinner etc... in a spotting scope drive me nuts thinking its something changing and its not really. I trust the RIGHT flag much more. I trust the feel on my face and what I see in dust/impacts, grass and so on much more.

Just me anyway.

Dueling trees can be fun. Haven't shot one in a couple of years though.

Can't wait to see the sights and the shooting on that too.

Thanks buddy. They are steel sights. A little different than anything else out there. Im a little concerned because they attach to the rail and handguard. I can see what you were warning me about in an earlier post, as far as getting consistent accuracy. They are ultradyne C4 sights with an 8moa front aperature and .05 rear aperature. I like lining up circles better. It helps with that parallax issue you were telling 79s about. Regardless of how well they work, ill probably start a thread on them. Even if i shoot an 8moa group at 100 yards with them, ill post it up..

What’s crazy we used one flag at 600yds according to it no wind. But why were we adjusting for wind. We had an extra flag and pole so I hauled it to the other side and wow what a difference. So one side the flag be moving in the wind. Meanwhile other flag not doing anything. That was an eye opener for sure..

OP is the one that went totally quiet rost... Ha ha.. I'd like to see some target pics from the rifle in the OP. Please.. Thanks...

Don’t have an AR, but do have a Redfield Olympic sight on a Rem 513T. Great sight it is.

You have to have the right flag for sure for that wind. A few smokes out there some days will really open your eyes. Think of wind as water. You've been on water. Watch how the water flows around objects... wind does the same basically. Once you figure that out you kind of can what flags to toss out right away sometimes, others to try to see. Best if if you can see an upwind accurate flag WHILE on your sights... thats tough.. at least have to see the flag while in position or its going to give you data you dont' want to see AFTER you shoot... Another reason to learn to break shots quickly once you decide.

I've said before and will again, its hard for me to mentally follow things while waiting on target service or whatever. So I used to be constantly on the sights and adjust every time I felt the need even if I wasn't even in position to shoot so to speak. And if it was different after I shot, even before the target went down I corrected what I saw and kept on until time to shoot... target coming up with shot location I might tweak it one last time and bang. A lot easier once you learn it, than it is to simply type and read.

That said one thing we used to do a bit, shoot without adjusting for wind until you are done. If you aren't shooting an X ring size group vertically there are other things holding you back.

And remember, the 10 ring is half the size of the X ring. a 10 is a warning.

A wise shooter once told me "a 10 is a 9 waiting to happen"

Yes sir... a 10 means you better buckle down harder... Good stuff rost.

I talked to several folks about adjusting and not adjusting. Some say hold for the wind others say treat each shot likes it’s your first shot and adjust.. I tried both, I adjust for the most part. But my data I always set it for 2-4 mph wind.. use my sighters to see where I’m at.

Man I can’t wait to get shooting the club shoots, I have some loads I need to verify. Might do it this coming week.

a 10 is always an Oh [bleep] moment for me. Sometimes its from praying for a shot that broke bad.... most of the time its a WTF did that come from....

If you want to learn, then treat each shot as if its your first. But there comes a time you want to win. Then you go with the flow. Sometimes in a string, and unfortunately sometimes more than once, I have had to stop, go back to zero and wait out a weird condition, and then start over.

But how often is your first shot a pinwheel X in conditions? I don't want to do it that way 22 times.

That said you are discussing shading and adjusting. We call em favors. I will favor on a sight but only enough to favor one side or the other of the X. If the favor is going to be a 10 I'm going to adjust and trust my sights not my eyes to a SWAG.

In the middle of a rapid fire string though you often don't have an option. I generally had time to click in prone rapid, but sitting rapid I SUCK at and it takes me forever to get into position and the mag change and etc..that I"ll favor.

Yeah, its generally a weird flyer. Sometimes not, sometimes you know you fd up and called the shot. I remember last year I purposely shot a cold clean barrel with one of my hunting rifles at one of our centerfire shoots. That was after I felt bad for pulling my CTR out... So, 1 cold clean bore shot, the next one to verify if POI changed after a fouling shot, and it didn't, then the next 8 were adjusted shots...:


I know, it's a scope, its like cheating. I'm like 79s and can't wait for the clubs to start in with shooting matches again. The weather has been perfect over here for it..

I should clarify we are talking to different styles. I shoot mostly Mid range prone. In the AR tactical class, Which is all slow fire we start at 300, 500 and 600. Our fun shoots are all 600yds. I shoot occasional service rifle, our club host monthly reduced yardage service rifle. They do host one leg match a year, which is why I want to get better as a sling shooter.

Ok, so the OP is not responding to us anymore.. Ha ha. I guess we went way off track. Still talking service rifle matches and target shooting, but went too far off track. Just to make the OP happy, I will say that his thread got me motivated. I bought some irons, they are being shipped right now. These attach to a rail and are supposed to be pretty good sights. I'll be the judge of that, although they get some pretty good reviews. I started getting my Noveske ready for the new sights. Didn't take too much time, looked through my stash of parts and found a windham weaponry gas block that was supposed to go on my new WW varmint exterminator barrel I bought a few months ago. Didn't use it because the thing is a tank. I had to ream the holes out a bit to get it to fit my Noveske barrel, but that was easy, didn't cost anything, but about 15 minutes. Well, then I counter sunk some holes in my noveske barrel for the set screws to nestle in nice and tight. Loctited them in place and everything is solid. Much better than just throwing the new front sight on the end of the rail. Here's what I got so far:





I'll have approximately 24" of sight radius with the new sights attached.

I'm hoping these "cheap" sights as rost called them work a little better than he thinks.. He may be right, as I've never had a set of these Ultradyne C4 sights before...I think it will be something fun to experiment around with though, if they work good..

You can get great deals on Warner's these days. Or just about any of the match sights - PNW, Phoenix, etc.

If I had a mind to shoot iron-sighted match rifle, I'd darn sure be picking up a RightSight.

I'm going to be starting a new thread on these sights I just put on my rifle today:


I'll ask you what those sights you speak of are there... Thanks buddy...

Unfortunately, I don't know of any shooting supply shops selling the RightSight anymore, it looks like it has been discontinued. But here is a post where an old HP guy is selling his Warner rear sight and his (front) Rightsight.
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/th...ol-phoenix-precision-rightsight.3926369/

You think its different, but its still basically the same. All of the ones you mention anyway. FWIW

Prices have gone much higher on these match sights as almost all are no longer being made. There are some new ones coming in the pipeline, I saw an English rear sight on display at our State Palma Championship last December. As I recall it will sell for about $800-$850 which is pretty much what a used Warner No. 2 match direction will go for today assuming you can find one...

What happened to Warner? Yes I"m out of the loop. Those were kind of good sights from what I saw and heard over the years.

Oh yeah.. I THINK I shot the 99-3x with a sling.. not a dang rest off a bench. LOL.

He is still in business, just not making the sights. The switch to scopes on XC Match Rifles must have been a big impact and while they are still needed for long range sling shooters, we can't be a very big market and getting smaller. Not as many people like a challenge these days I guess (says the Luddite).

Wow.

Let me think... Kidd... thats the only part of the name I can think of. Was building GOOD 92s for service pistol. Really good guns. Not cheap. Finally got into so much other stuff and not much demand so he basically quit last time I heard..

I really should have bought one for the heck of it, but I had a loaner and thought I was going to go distignuished pistol in 3 matches. And I did. Except for the fact that one of my rapid fires... was on neighbors target.... LMAO.

I should have bought a Warner too just in case....

Whats the go to Palma sight these days then? old Warners?

I'd have to say Warner by a huge margin, particularly the later 32 TPI number 2s as they provide a crazy amount of windage and match up to 1/4 moa clicks with a 30" barrel. Second would be Phoenix and then a Centra or Moes. I have a Centra for back up.

You could get a PNW - Pretty Near Warner!

FWIU, they are good sights. I'm not into match rifles.

My mistake, PNW was what I was thinking when I posted Moes. I have a Warner and Centra, but would pick up a PNW if the price was good.

Yeah, Mike, with these high-end sights a lot of it comes down to what you like - knob size/placement, markings, etc., etc.

But Warner is the standard of comparison.

In your picture, the rifle is sitting on a front rest and bench.

You good. Maybe it was another postal type match then. Or maybe I shot with the sling and used the rest for photo. Not sure. LOL. Doesn't matter. One thing is sure it was rusty and piss poor shooting.

Were is that target stuff anyway, I might get a laugh out of seeing that picture again.

I’m sure your old crabby ass would say, AR tactical class are cheating with bipods, and 10x scopes shooting out to 600yds. We also don’t shoot rapid fire in mid range prone competition.

Go shoot that ol 458 a few times maybe it will jar your memory

It really is all the same, even with the bipods and 10X scopes. The gun has to be good. You have to be good and its all fun. The skills are the same. I've shot mid range and long range prone. Though not with a scope. I enjoy it all. I just like ribbing you cheating guys with scopes. LOL.
I just wanna see BSA come through on the non optical sights.

And yes, you are right the 458 jars me..... 510 WW Factory loads really just about suck... I don't shoot big bullets in it for that reason. LOL.

Any news on opening the matches yet? Sounds like I"m going to have to deal with quarantine here in a bit regardless according to my boss. AND we might even have weekends off for the first 2 months.... I might get my rusty butt out to play yet...already kind of thinking about sending some 80 jlks or 75 amax up just in case. If I ever get as far as I hope.

Back to work here. There is a door calling my name needing more re finish work.

Rost no doubt in order to compete the rifle has to be good. Even with that the guy or gal behind the rifle has to be good.. I’m just out their having fun. Like the match director says no world records are going to be set today so let’s just have some fun. Far as matches i ran into the fella that runs them and no word from post yet. He said the NRA has canceled all sanctioned matches through May though. He’s pissed, he almost has his high master just needs to 20 more shots something like that.

LOL. Thats the last 20 that you will fall on your face often... took me a few tries for HM XC and LR back in the day..

Having fun is a blast. I get wound up on trying to win at times. But anymore in my life I've decided its the next shot in the tube vs ME. Thats it. Once the wife and I die, all the medals on the wall and such will be tossed in the trash... won't matter to anyone.

I know I keep saying I am trying... but I really am, I just need things to work right, I'd LOVE to come shoot, but it has to work out when I'm in Talkeetna for your area or when a match is at Greely. Can't justify driving 7 hours or so one way to shoot.

You keep having fun, but in the meantime while having fun the best thing you can do is to try to learn WHY that 9 or 8 or 7 came from... seriously. Once you start understanding that its all better. Who cares about the overall score really.

Sorry, work got busy and I lost track of this posting
I will dig up some targets, still working on loads as the fore and aft of the rifle changed a bit ago and I can’t tell if my poi is off now or I am, likely me.
I cannot shoot as well on the bipod as I can on my viper rest. The rest weighs 50lbs or so and I’m on a 10lb restriction for about 2 more weeks (surgery)

I guess once “recovered” I have to start over w/o bipod

Heal up buddy. I was just interested to see how well that set-up shoots. But i can wait. Im glad you started this thread because it motivated me to get some iron sights on my rifle.

You talking coming from delta? Or talkeetna? There is a club up in North Pole that holds shoots as well. But this whole Covid thing has screwed things up far as shooting

Either or. Delta part of the year. 3 months give or take at Talkeetna. And a couple months in the bush.

It just has to work out timing wise. I shot at the Talkeetna range once on range day last year. Easy to hit the huge 1000 yard steel they had. So I tried the steel wolf at 600 and shot it in the head and made a good hit. That was fun. Loaner 6.5 creed.

North Pole is closer than your shoots, but further than Greely.

19 has screwed a lot of things. Wife and I wanted to go to one of our old matches while I was back in TX just to visit and watch. Nope once we finished deer season the matches shut down... ugh...

Our club was trying to get a 1000 yd shoot scheduled up at Greely this summer. Also apologize to the op for getting his thread so far off topic.

We all like ribbing each other, its all in fun. I respect what both of you guys bring to the table. I think part of the reason im wanting to run those irons is because you said using a scope is like cheating, and to a certain extent it is. However, shooting 600 yards with a 4 power scope isnt exactly easy. It still takes good equipment and shooter and ammo to score consistently. Back to the irons, if i can get to a point where im shooting 1 moa in the black rifle challenge, ill know ive rung just about all the accuracy out of that Noveske that i can. I'll be content with that, even if that means i'd be shooting something like a 100-8x average.

100-8x average would have been nuts to me with post front sight. Maybe with apertures. But thats getting close to what used to be a record, which was IIRC 200-17x at least with a service rifle anyway.

Optics make it easier period simply due to the sight picture being on one focal plane. Thats really huge for aging eyes and eyes period. Its not the magnification that helps so much as it is the focal plane IMHO. Though magnification usually up to a point doesn't hurt.

Getting bored with Ben Avery's 1000 yard being shut down for weeks so I headed to our open club's 500 yard range with a fellow campfire member this morning to do some load testing and socializing.
Trying out a new powder at a couple different weights and comparing to my baseline load with Varget. Not sure I'm good enough with a sling to see any definitive differences. Vertical may be the most telling as there were no usable flags and my mirage skills need improvement. Still fun to be shooting at midrange at least. Pretty sure Bill out shot me with his service rifle...







We were both using e targets which locate the shots using microphones on the target frame corners and provide a lot of data. No need to pull and paste which is great.

Nice. Looks like the majority of your groups are centered. If that is a mr 500 yard target, that 10 ring is 10" across. Basically 2 moa. What rifle were you using? Looks like a bolt gun laying there. Is it set up with irons. If so, what kind? You also dont say what bullet you are using. Must have been a pretty calm day, if you didnt have flags. Cool targets, thanks for posting.

You're correct, BSA that is a 500 yard center I stapled onto my larger LR target face. The rifle is a .308 Palma rifle built on a model 70 action, Warner rear, 22mm front sight, 155.5 fullbores and 155 Sierras. Barrel is a little tired at 4500 rounds, but a new Kreiger should be here in June.

Iron sights, prone with sling for the 60 shots on the target face.

The wind was forecast for 5-7 but don't think it made it that high. Think I went from 1/2 minute left to 1-1/4minute right total. No wind flags as it wasn't a match, one short, red, "range is hot" flag off to one side.

I'm thinking a 60 shot group composite of 3 different loads at 500 with no bipods or rests should be the new Campfire standard, to heck with 10 shots off a bench, grin.

Very nice buddy. Thanks for the info... I got rained out today and the wind came in like a bat out of hell. Forced me to call it. I was starting to get wet. Here's 4 shots from my Noveske, that I just put the flip up back up irons on:




The rain was coming down too hard to continue shooting and the wind knocked my target stand down... Even though I was on a bench that was covered, the wind was forcing the rain under the cover.. There will be better days to shoot...!!!

Good shooting. Wind is fun, rain and not being able to see, not so much...

Thanks mike. Yeah, i dont mind the wind much at 100 yards. The rain sure is a biotch though. I noticed the damn wind pushes those 69's around a bit. I shot yesterday and the wind was shifting. I managed to sloppily shoot a 100-7x. Score not too bad, but group size sucked..

As some of us know, sometimes its easier to get lucky and shoot a good score vs. shooting a super small group size, then again it could be vise versa. Here are a couple targets from yesterday:



Barely snuck that 100-6x in and lobbed that dang 100-7x in there. Wind was pushing those little bullets around, plus I'm learning those sights. They seem to be doing a great job though.. The funny thing about the 100-6x target, is the group size was pretty good (1.2 MOA):

Barely broke that 10 ring, got lucky....
... I need more practice behind the gun. Shooting right handed and all....