First let me say what I'm trying to accomplish. I have a old Contender frame I don't use any more and I would like to turn it into a bug out set up in the rifle configuration. Barrel #1 in 30-30 as I already load for it, and have a bullet mold for it. Barrel #2 .22 long rifle. Barrel #3would be a vent ribbed .410 barrel if I can find one.
Barrel #4 Is where I want advice I'm wanting a small case .22 centerfire round That could be hand loaded with 35-40 gr. cast bullets to sub .22 LR. velocities say 800-950 FPS. My reasoning is if .22LR becomes unavailable again I would have quiet soft shooting reloadable alternative available. I'm thinking .22 Hornet/K-Hornet or maybe .221 fireball. What say you.

Richard

Any of those 3, Mr Barsness wrote an article recently about doing just what you are thinking of. Light cast bullets and also round ball. He used .22 Hornet and .223.

if you are thinking bug-out and 22LR not available, then 223 that you can load down, or 222 and some forming dies/cutter.

Wouldn't it be easier to bug out with 5000 rounds of .22 reloads than with lead, powder, reloading equipment, ladles, etc?

That was more or less my idea as well, with the .25-20. Then ran into a brass availability problem. And also discovered that really small cast bullets can be a little fussy to get to shoot well.

Others have made the point the .25-20 is considerably more effective on game that the .22, and I suspect that would be true even with subsonic loads.

The Hornet is popular, but can be a little fussy to get to shoot. Brass has decent availability. The Fireball is very unfussy, and can be made from .222 or .223 brass. The Bee is unfussy, but brass is not available at the moment, except at scalper prices.

I think there is a wildcat named the .22 Flea, which could be described as a shortened .22 K-Hornet, designed to use very small powder charges.

The project is interesting, and may prove a challenge.

Tex, Have you tried to find Hornet brass recently?-Muddy

Bingo. Much as I like my Hornet, a .223 is way easier to feed, with tons of cheap military brass and barrel twist that will support more cast bullet designs than the typical Hornet barrel.

Also, instead of cast, consider buying blems and closeout bullets. Unless you have molds, furnace, and lead in hand, the cost and time involved may make jacketed pretty competitive. I've bought a bunch lately for about .12 a pop or so and could probably do better if I tried. Speer makes a 46gr flat point for the .218 Bee that should thump small game pretty well even without expanding.

Pappy, I want to be as self reliant as possible that means hopefully powder and primers only. And as far as lead I'm sitting on just shy of a ton and adding more every month.

Richard

Have you looked are replacing the 30/30 barrel with a 357 magnum? The 38/357 brass is easy to come by and the 357 will do anything the 30/30 will, out to 250 yards, using less powder. Casting bullets for them is as easy as it can be and you can make very quite loads with a lot more punch than the .22 cals.

Enjoy the search and good luck!

no - don't have one at the moment.

I do have a #1 in .218 Bee and brass is problematic.

This sounds more like a prepper situation than a bug-out. If you bug out, it's not likely you'll pack 4 barrels; one extra max is more likely.

At any rate, the .357 idea is a good one, especially if you have a handgun so chambered. The .221 would be nice, but brass, if available, ain't cheap unless you make it from .223 and it's probably better to just stick with the .223.

Also, don't neglect to look into chamber inserts. With the Contender, you can shoot .22 rimfires in an insert-equipped .223 barrel and pick from several .32 rounds to fire in your .30/30.

Come to think of it, a .32 Fed or H&R barrel would be a good small game caliber as well, cheap on powder and lead. Brass is not too bad either.

Interesting project.

You could drop the 30-30 from the lineup have a lot of versatility with 22rimfire, 223, 410.

The 223 with proper loads is proven on deer etc. It could double as your light load 22 if it ever came to that.

I'd use the .223 rather than the .221, because I don't want to spend time by the fire trimming cases and reaming case necks, a necessity when making .221 from .223.

BTW 223, hands down!-Muddy

Armscor 22 TCM ... new and wild!
Gotta wait to see if this one pans out.

I have a Fireball and it is one of my favorites. Brass hasn't been a problem but I've never considered loading it down.




DMc

For the cost of a 22 cf barrel, brass, reloading dies and bullet molds, you could hermetically seal 5,000 rds of 22 rf and have money left over.

22rf is available again, get a case and put it away for a rainy day.

I would use the straight Hornet with a load of Trailboss, probably around 6-700fps with a 40gr lead bullet. Don't have to measure it, just fill up the case, seat a bullet and shoot. Load it with hand dies and go. You can't get enough into a case to create a pressure issue. Also factor in the Traiboss will work in just about any chambering you've mentioned for a reduced load. If your talking about a bug out rig for a centerfire, having a single powder that will work for all situations is ideal.

If this is something YOU want to do, then I'd look into the .22 Squirrel, based on the shortened .22 Hornet case. It should work well for down loading as you describe, and equal or slightly exceed the .22 WMR when loaded up. However, for a "bug out" gun, I am not sure why you want a single shot? That situation would be conducive to MUCH disorder, where single shots COULD get you killed. Just MHO, though.

As much as I'm an advocate of the .22 Hornet (and a couple other oddball .22CF's), I would have to say in the event of an apocalyptic collapse a .223/5.56 anything would be my choice. With a gov't collapsed out of the way or trying to restore order there's bound to be tons of those cartridges laying around. I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time. But I would lean toward arming myself with some kind of really popular caliber that I stood a chance of finding anywhere, even though I would certainly take pains to provide myself with the "fixin's" to load my own, with cast bullets probably.

If I were "bugging out" (fat chance with my gimpy butt, and whereinhell am I gonna find heart meds out in the sticks anyway), I would probably just grab a .22 rimfire and a couple bricks of ammo and hope for the best.

It's not a bad idea, but since you already have a rimfire bbl, I'm not sure what you gain. I have a Bullberry Bee barrel, and I wouldn't trade it. But I also wouldn't seek one out.

Faster twist than 1:14 not required with cast bullets. I have Lee Bator mould that casts 55's, and they stabilize just fine in the Bee at rimfire speed, sans gas check, in re-smelted range scrap alloy. In fact, they shoot more accurately than my rimfire. Since I have the stuff already, they are cheaper to shoot than rimfire, and I get about 12-1250 out of a 55gr slug. Titegroup, Unique, Red dot, Blue dot, Clays, all work slicker than cowshiit for what I've described. Charges 3-5 gr w/o gas check.

I only have the Lee mould in 22 cal, but with a gas check and harder alloy, like coww, you can step on it a bit. Quench them, and step harder. So far, accurate loads have barely gotten to 2k with Unique and BD, but I've not experimented much, and haven't hardened the alloy further.

This is not a bad bugout set-up, as 5000 cast up and tumble lubed is about 40 lbs. Still have to have powder, dipper, priming setup, minimal sizing, etc. Casting equipment and a couple hundred lbs of lead feels good to own when I ponder the future availability of components.

Don't see the logic in replicating what you already have, ie the .22 LR. If you want to simplify the project, try some .310 diameter round balls in the .30-30. Start with 3.0 grains of Bullseye and work down. Put a card wad under the ball, straighten the case neck but do not crimp. LR primer or LP if you prefer. Tumble lube with ALOX cut with mineral spirits about 10% by volume. I get about 750 fps with that load using a 180 cast 311041, you'll probably see somewhere around 1100 fps +/- with the start load and round balls.

Use caution, check the bore before shooting the second round if the previous report seems the least bit unusual. Mouse fart loads have been known to leave a bullet in the barrel.

Yeah the RB loads in 30/30 are a kick in the pants. Really ideal for kids, or just the kid in you. I followed Digital Dan's outline there except for the powder. I tried Unique, 5gr, and then Titegroup, 5 gr. The Titegroup load shoots them a bit faster. Both are accurate enough for small game at 20 paces out of 14" Contender.

I shoot a lot of cast bullets ranging from .22 cal fiber to .375 H&H. Getting decent .22 cast bullets is a royal PITA. The only alloy that gave decent casts was with pure linotype and even then the reject rate was quite high. Sometimes, over 50 percent ended back up in the pot. The very slightest flaw was reason for rejection and the slightest difference in weight was enough to reject. My loads FWIW was more in the range of a hot .22 WRF.
What I would consider regarding your specs would be the round ball as mentioned of a gallery load for the 30-30. Feeding would not be a problem in your single shot and something in the 100 to 120 gr. range with a light load of Unique. I use 5.0 gr. on my M94 Winchester but at that level is still supersonic. Feeding in lever actions is fussy at best with the lighter bullets borderline in a Marlin and no go in the M94, The 100 to 115 gr. bullets won't deed in the 94 but are borderline in the Marlin. The 120 gr. bullets will feed in the M94 if seated as far out as practical. At least they do in my rifle. None of that is a problem in a single loader. Gallery loads in a 30-30 or any .30 caliber rifle are a lot of fun as plinkers and with a bit of tweaking for your particular rifle make great small game loads.
Paul B.

Pick a caliber you desire.. pick up a 5lb keg of Trail Boss and you are off to the races...

For whatever it might be worth I have shot round balls from a number of different calibers with success. .25, .30, .35 and .44. I like to paper patch my balls for the .44, otherwise it has been Alox lube for the smaller calibers. I shot some loads with the .44 that had two balls and you can probably shoot both your balls thru any caliber with a straight wall cartridge. Maybe you could shoot 3 in a long case like the .45-70 or .38-55 if you have three balls. Some folk use different lubes, it really doesn't matter much with MF loads. Load whatever you got and send your balls downrange I say.

Accuracy will be better than you might expect, particularly with slow twist barrels that are typical of straight wall chambered barrels. Little bit of common sense and a little powder will go a long way to providing precision far beyond what you might expect. It helps if your balls are truly round. Not all balls are created equal. Swagged balls from Hornady are round, but geeze if that doesn't make me squirm a little.

Best of luck,

D

I disagree with that to a fairly large degree. 50/50 WW/Lino is a good mix for .22 bullets if one seeks a bit of snap on the velocity. Softer alloy works quite well in the general vicinity of 1100 fps. Trick to doing that is having your mould and alloy hot enough for say, 30:1 alloy. About 750* will do the trick.

Lyman 225438 44 gr w/#2 alloy. Actually kinda boring to cast.

My role in engineering was mostly waving my hands, talking, drawing sketches, and sitting in meetings.

I had to have an airtight explanation for why everything a team did could not be done simpler and cheaper.

Now that I am retired, I can do stuff just because i feel like it.





How does that round lead ball get a flat nose and get a meplat that seals the gas at the lands?

I mades some dies and put two presses end on end and I squish lead ball into shape.

With 2 grains of Red Dot it pushes a 186 gr 50 cal round ball 600 fps and sounds like a BB gun. It will kill a coon with a body shot. That is 56-50 brass cut down to 0.45" long.

Flyin' ashtray strikes yet again!

Smilin' I am. Minds without guardrails are the mothers of all pearls.

I love it!

As for casting .22 bullets- 'taint no particular trick. I do it exactly like Dangerous Dog Digital Dan does, but I run my pot up around 800º with WW alloy, and switch to a different mold when bullets start looking too frosty, and back again, etc. Very, very few rejects.

I have a .17 mould. Plain base round nose that casts about 9-10 grains. Is that bizarre or what?

DD, That is disturbing.
You could just buy 17 cal pellets.

They are the wrong size. Sad state of affairs, no?

4mm?

Aye. 800 fps +/-

12 grooves, ~7.5" twist. Them Germans were crafty rascals back before the first great war. Maybe still....

A source for ammo etc.

http://www.iss-internationalshootersservice.com/ammunition.html

That looks like the Shire.

Shire? Whazzat?

The place where Samwise is mayor.

Was made in Munderkingen, Germany. Small river town near the Baltic coast. May have misspelled the town but it's close.

Dan, I don't know who is more evil, you or Jim (EvilTwin). That's all I needed to see, a shop, that close, that carries really neat toys.

Ed

Ed, I'm not evil. Please review my sig line. I have standards you know.

Thanks,

D

PS: By the way...



Is my bluritude up to standards?

It has an interesting action. Is a falling block with two triggers. It does not cock when the action is cycled. The rear trigger does that. Hard pull to cock, then I dare you to breath on the front trigger. There is a German name for that, but it eludes me at the moment.

An answer to the OP's problem actually dawned on me a little while ago...

5.7x28

It's about the same capacity as a Hornet, but has the advantage of being a more modern shape with sharper shoulder. And being a military/LE cartridge, there is plenty of surplus brass around:

surplus 5.7x28 brass

I've heard the cartridge is fussy to handload, and you have to be very careful if trying to reach max loads. But light loads are the topic of this thread...

Bullberry lists the caliber for custom Contender barrels:

Bullberry Contender barrels

There are of course FN pistols & rifles, and AR uppers that run the 5.7x28, but a Contender barrel seems more versatile.

Thanks lots of great thoughts I like the looks of the little 5.7. Can you use regular .224 bullets in it or do you need the 5.7mm version. 458 lott I have a lot of .22 saved up for a "rainy day" I looking for a replacement for it when none is available.

Richard

That press setup looks kinda kinky. Might be illegal in some Southern states.😛

yes, .224 bullets, see here:

http://www.fivesevenforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=8520&sid=ba6173363c29dd7391cb7177aa764a97

And some published data online, here:

http://www.ramshot.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/WP_LoadSpec_1-23-14.pdf

OK, I apologize, you are disturbed. Your "bluritude" is acceptable as I can still read the script.

I believe the German word for that type of action is 'Ach, scheisse'.

Ed

Well, not edzachery.

Ed, two shots of whiskey and an acid chaser and it came back to me.

Stecherspanner is the proper name of that trigger concept. It is an invaluable piece of info. You are one of 15 in the planet that know this.

Excellent, Dan! I like being one of the 'enlightened few'.

Ed