September 2014 hunt report
Days – 14/9/14 travel day 15/9-24/9/14 hunting days 25/9/14 travel day back to hotel
Outfitter – Vince and Lisa Cocciolo of Total Outdoor Adventures Ltd
Guide – Tyson Musil of More Musil guide service
Area - Total Outdoor Adventures Bull river north guide area southern British Columbia
Tags – Bull Elk, Mule deer, black bear and Wolf

Introduction
I’ve been hunting for over ten years in Australia and on several overseas guided hunts and have never had a more disappointing experience than dealing with Tyson Musil of More Musil guide service and Vince and Lisa Cocciolo of Total Outdoor Adventures Ltd. My reason for doing this is to hopefully stop anybody else having an experience like I have recently had. I’m utterly discussed with the way the majority of this hunt was conducted and the way I was treated after paying close to $9000.00 US dollars for a 10 day guided hunt.

Back round
In Mid 2013 I began researching booking a rocky mountain elk hunt after lots of research I decided that I wanted to hunt in the rut to experience the bugle in a wilderness area with the use of horses. The Kootenay region of BC seemed to be the area where this type of hunt could be conducted after contacting several outfitters and contacting their past clients I was told by several other Australians that I should get in contact with Tyson Musil of More Musil guide service. I contacted Tyson Musil of More Musil Guide service below is his description of his operation from his initial email to me.

I only book hunts I can personally guide myself, that way I can ensure you are going to have a good hunt. You can book a hunt with the best outfitter in the world but if you have a [bleep] guide you’re going to have a [bleep] hunt. I only book in areas that I have guided in for years and know well so you know you’re going to see game. Long story short I'm putting my personal name on the line every time so if the hunt didn't go well then I can make it right at the end of the day. I can't guarantee you’re going to kill but I can guarantee you'll be in great area with a lot of elk, you will see game every day and you'll be in a first class camp with exceptional gear and horses.

Booking
After talking to several references I decided to book a hunt for September 2014 Tyson recommended Vince and Lisa Cocciolo of Total Outdoor Adventures guide area. Tyson stated he knew the area like the back of his hand and had experienced an above average level of success it was described to me as 500 square KM area with a single access logging road that received little resident pressure and the residents that did hunt the area only hunted of the road usually using quad bikes. I was told that for the duration of my hunt I would be the only guided hunter in the area I was told by to expect plenty of elk action as well as seeing other game animals on a daily basis. I was sent a contract from Vince and Lisa Cocciolo of Total Outdoor Adventures that was paid in full by the dates in the contract.

Hunt itinerary
The plan and what unfolded were quiet different before leaving Sydney Australia I was told I would be picked up in the early morning from my hotel in Calgary on the 14/9/14 driven to Total Outdoor Adventures main south camp (3hr drive) where we would pick up the food and horses/horse float then drive to the north camp and pack for 3- 4 days in the mountains then spend the remainder of the day riding into a high basin set up camp for the night then hunt the following morning this way I would have 10 days of total hunt time with a day each side getting in and out of the area.

Ankle Concerns
Around 2 months before leaving Sydney for this hunt I started getting ankle problems from an injury that occurred 2 years ago after seeing a specialist and getting a MRI I was told I had severed a main ligament and had a fair amount of cartridge damage. I described the trip I had planned based on information from Tyson Musil the doctor said he was okay with me going as long as I was cautious and explained if I severed another ligament I would require surgery to be able to bare any weight on that foot. I quickly informed Tyson Musil via a phone call and communicated my concern he assured me we could ride the horses to all the elevations he planned to hunt and said I would just need to communicate with him during the hunt any limitations I had and he stated he could go as fast or as slow as I wanted.

Wasting the 1st day
I had arrived in Calgary the previous day and was expecting to be picked up at 8am from my hotel as discussed via text with Tyson Musil before me leaving Sydney. I bought a prepaid sim and called Tyson several times that day and night trying to confirm the pickup time every call went straight to his voice mail. At around 10 pm that night I received a call from Tyson he said one of Total Outdoor Adventures guides had quit the day beforehand leaving a client with 1 day left on his hunt and he had been in the bush all day filling in guiding the client. He then went on to describe the hunter as a typical useless fat unfit American this was the start of plenty of unprofessional behavior and bad attitudes that I was to witness over my time spent with Tyson Musil and Total Outdoor Adventures. I asked if he was still picking me up at 8am Tyson said he would be there at 11am as he had some things to do beforehand and to not worry as we had plenty of time to get up into the mountains before dark. Tyson Musil picked me up at 11am as we made our way to Sparwood he received a call on speaker phone from a work colleague from this call I found out that Tyson Musil had been sleeping with Lisa Cocciolo (the wife of the Outfitter who’s area we were hunting in) when he was finished with the call he spilled the beans and said that Vince Cocciolo had found out what was going on in the last week or so and that they had already had an altercation and that Vince Cocciolo had threatened his life so with me thinking to myself “what have I got myself into here” we drove to his father’s house in Sparewood where he picked up some gear we would need on our hunt then we picked up his personal gear from his house we then spent a good hour at a local workshop where he had to get a toe ball welded to his truck so that we could toe the horse float we were to pick up. By this time it was around 4 pm I was wondering how we would manage to get into the mountains before night fall as we were obviously wasting the day with things that should have been sorted out beforehand Tyson Musil assured me we had plenty of time and that all would be fine.

Meeting the Outfitter
Next we met Lisa Cocciolo of Total Outdoor Adventures at a super market when I was introduced to her (the Outfitter I had paid for this hunt) she barely said hello and continued shopping so the three of us casually wasted another good hour or more picking up food for our hunt as well as food for others in their south camp. Once the shopping was taken care of she pulled out some documents for me to sign and my tags.

Catching horses and south camp
By the time we had arrived at the horse float we were to use in Total Outdoor Adventures southern area it was late afternoon we then had to wait for Lisa Cocciolo for quite some time Tyson Musil explained to me that we would have to catch some horses as they had only caught enough for the hunters in the south camp before the season had started and Lisa Cocciolo knew where the free horse would be grazing. By the time she arrived and we had the horse float attached it was close to dark I was thoroughly disappointed by this stage by the care free attitudes and the in efficiency so far. We found the horses who took off at our first attempt to catch them Tyson Musil said to turn his truck around and drive back the way we came he would follow them on foot. Somehow I managed up driving! Lisa Cocciolo’s attitude through the whole time I spent in Total Outdoor Adventures area seemed to be “somebody else can take care of it” (this coming from one of the owners) a half hour later in the dark she had guided me to a dead end not big enough to turn around in due to the toe ball only being fitted that day we quickly found out that it was quiet easy to jack knife this truck/float combination and very difficult and time consuming to fix after fixing the issue Lisa Cocciolo managed to quickly jack knife the trailer again more time wasted. The end result was me and Lisa Cocciolo taking turns reversing the truck and float downhill on a logging road for the next hour. When we finally found Tyson Musil he had not found the horses he dropped me at a walk bridge at around 10.30pm and said I’ll keep looking until midnight walk over to camp see if they can feed you if I’m not back by midnight find a place to sleep. So I walked over to the main south camp with all my gear feeling greatly disappointed.

South Camp
When I walked in the door of the main cabin there was 5 or six clients sitting in one corner looking miserable and a similar number of guides on another side of the room I said hello and barley got a response there was a Australian couple and another Aussie guy that recognised my accent and asked me who I was and why I was there. I filled them in when I asked if they were hunting the couple said that they were guiding and the other Aussie guy was helping with a bit of everything I asked if they had much experience hunting elk they replied it was there first time hunting them (so Total Outdoor Adventures to the best of my knowledge had two virgin elk hunters guiding paying clients). Shortly after my arrival the clients went to bed some of the guides and the cook stayed awake I introduced myself and told them that I was hunting with Tyson Musil after they knew I was a paying customer they began to bring up the following topics regarding Total Outdoor Adventures operation

1. The fact that Lisa Cocciolo was having an affair with Tyson Musil and that her husband Cocciolo was un contactable and had left them to run his operation and so far the season was a disaster

2. They didn’t have a competent wrangle in camp only a girl in her late teens who had started that day without any experience working as the wrangler

3. The fact they had no hot water so far that season due to a fixable issue with the plumbing/water tank

4. The fact that the lady cooking was Vince Cocciolo’s mother who had planned on having a holiday at their camp and instead had been cooking full time for everyone to hold up the fort

5. That they had 5 or six clients in camp with a day or 2 left on their hunts and only one elk had been harvested

I sat in disbelief listening to all this made me sick after a while the Australian girl came back and told me which bunk to sleep in I waited till around 1am for Tyson Musil to come back which he never did so I went and laid down to a the first of many sleepless nights worrying what else could go wrong not the best start to what was supposed to be a hunt of a lifetime.

The Next 7 days
Below are some of the key points that made this a terrible experience I ended up leaving on the 7th day as I had no wish to spend another 3 days with Tyson Musil

1. Tyson Musils general bad attitude regarding me the hunt and that he felt he would get paid for the hunt due to sleeping with the outfitters wife.

2. Tyson Musil having an attitude of keep up or get left behind regarding most of the hunt

3. Tyson musil treating this hunt and me as a inconvenience rather that a paying customer

4. Tyson Musil Physically mistreating the horses eg kicking and punching them to get them to co operate

5. Tyson Musil trying to convince me on several occasions to take animals I did not have tags for if I gave him additional funds

6. Tyson Musil telling me if I want to shoot a goat/moose he would get resident tags and make out he took the animals at a later date for legal reasons

7. After 7 days of riding into high basins then calling, glassing and walking game trails I had not heard one single bugle or seen one mule deer only 2 cow elk and a 5 point immature bull as well as one immature black bear

8. On the nights we spiked out Tyson musil after stating he had top of the line camping gear never brought a tent or even a trap when it was requested

9. I’ve never seen so much hunting pressure plenty of locals camping with horse floats along the bull river road (I was told this area received little resident pressure)

10. The North camp which I told had running hot water did not it had been damaged by a flood several years ago and only party repaired

11. The horses had not been ridden since last year and had a bad temperament and were un fit

12. Tyson Musil claimed to know this area like the back of his hand, on the second day of hunting he took me to an area he admitted he had never been to before

13. Apart from the first trail we used the others seemed to have not been maintained in a few years with plenty of dead fall to negotiate

After the Hunt
After returning to Sydney I contacted Vince Cocciolo of Total Outdoor Adventures and said I had concerns regarding my hunt I was promptly contacted by Tyson Musil who begged to keep the matter to myself I asked for a refund which he agreed to then came back and threatened me with legal action if I was to post what happened. I then contacted Vince who after being informed of what I experienced has stopped replying to my emails.

This sort of situation is far more commonplace in BC than is admitted by many involved. We have an open GO situation where any foreigner can buy/own GO concessions and hire ANY foreigner who usually knows squat about BC hunting or client service....seen this many times.

The legendary Bull River, is among the most heavily hunted areas in the Kootenays, by BC residents and has been this way for 50-60 years. I am a member of a pioneer family of the Kootenays, worked for the BCFS near there starting 50 years ago and I would NEVER advise a hunter from "OZ" to book with an outfit there.

There are SOME good outfitters here, I will NOT post my opinions on this here, but, can maybe help you for any further hunts here. You are WELCOME and I am bloody sorry that these azzwipes wrecked your dreamhunt.....had this happen to me too.

These are the same G/O that the government here in bc wants/did give 25% of the AAH (annual allowable harvest) too.
Thats too bad MR84 it turned out that bad, I can believe it as that part of the province is saturated with hunters, and the elk, mule deer pops are way down, surprising you didn't get a bear though.

Holy Sh*t, sounds like you booked a trip to the Jerry Springer show vs an Elk Hunt. Sorry to hear this.

I'd suggest editing the topic by adding the outfitters name to Bad guide/outfiiter for potential hunters doing a google search review on the guy.

MR84,

I'm sorry to hear of your unfortunate incident, but I have to say IMHO it is very bad form to join a forum for the soul purpose of trashing outfitter of persons X,Y, or Z.

I hope your future posts are more.....positive.

Welcome, BTW.

MR84
Sorry to hear about your hunt but it is pretty common from what I hear of this outfit, I have yet to hear a good thing about them and can not believe they are still able to stay in business.
If your story is true and accurate please contact the proper
authorities in B.C. to help in having them shut down.
Thanks

Very sorry to read this. When I was planning my first hunt in BC a number of years ago, moose and elk primarily, I posted here and Kuteney (is he still around?) suggested a few of the "bigger" name folks. One being Stone Mountain Safaris. Whilst they were a bit more $$ than I had planned I took his advice and had a wonderful trip. Next trip I suggest you ask here first.

Me, just had to change my handle as my old computer died last year and I lost all my old login material.

I am glad that I was able to help, but, yeah, it is brutally expensive to hunt here, even for we residents.

SMS has a great rep. and there are several others I would suggest, BUT, NOTHING justifies a shabby situation like this and it is NOT the first such that I have encountered.

AkBob5, I disagree, buddy, I think that his post is most appropriate, in good taste and serves to warn others who may book with this character and be essentially defrauded as he certainly was.

I find it most embarrassing when a guest in MY country is mistreated, cheated or maligned in ANY manner. I am a VERY proud Canadian, ANY such situation, especially to a fellow Commonwealth citizen is an insult to my country.

Under the current, vile, "neo-con" government in BC, the chances of any sanctions to this outfit are, unfortunately, slim and none.

MR84;
Welcome to the 'Fire from south central BC - about 5 or 6 valleys and 7 hours west of the Bull River country.

I'm sorry to read about your misfortunes hunting here sir and honestly that's one of the primary reasons I began the thread at the top of this section "Planning a Hunt in Canada" - that is to say to attempt to prevent fiascoes such as you described from taking place.

One of the initial things I find both vexing and puzzling in your story is that you did check out the references beforehand.

Accounts such as you've related double and triple underline why I admonish perspective hunters to check with both successful and unsuccessful clients before booking. Listening carefully to what people DO NOT say is often more telling than what they will.

While it may not bear much fruit at this juncture for you, I'd certainly at very least contact the Guide Outfitters Association of BC to lodge a complaint and I'd send a CC to the outfitter and the Better Business Bureau of BC too.

http://www.bbb.org/mbc

As my cyber friend SNAP said so well, it's a black eye for us residents that these goat roping rodeos are allowed to take place. We're working on changing that - but it's a slow process as you can imagine.

Anyway sir, again welcome to the 'Fire and I'm sorry to meet under these circumstances.

Dwayne

SNAP;
Top of the morning to you sir, I see we're both up before the chickens this morning.

As you noted and I mentioned to our unfortunate newcomer from down under, the current folks in Victoria will likely be less than useful in doing anything - but perhaps the GOABC might give more of a care?

I'm not really close to anyone who is active in that association, but do know a couple folks who guide occasionally.

While I don't know what this past season was like in the Kootenays and honestly have never hunted the Bull area - it was really, REALLY slow here in our part of the Okanagan. Weirdly out of sync with everything we're used to anyway.

Hopefully you folks are doing OK sir and all the best to you this weekend.

Dwayne

Wow! Sounds like one arrived when the sh-t was hitting the fan around there. Can't offer one any advice, but reviews are always welcome here.

Sorry for the screwed up hunt. It is happening too often.

I hear that BC moose hunts are notoriously like this and have been for years now. An outfitter will know how many shootable mature moose his area has, then overbook it drastically. He'll get a certain percentage of hunters on moose, while the lottery-losers get skunked...on purpose.

After all, he needs animals for next year.

I wonder if the first-timers every get a chance at one of the available moose.

Thanks for you kind words guys Akbob5 I can understand your opinion I do post on several other forums but un till now never on 24hr I've decided to let people know what happened as if I had found a report like this online (which I did try to find) I would not have dealt with either operation I think a lot of people keep experiences like this quiet allowing people like this to continue operating I would rather it be public knowledge to prevent someone else going through the same thing.

Regards Matt

Matt,

Truly sorry you had such a terrible experience and do appreciate you sharing the bad news/review.

Hope you hang around, lots of good folks here...even if some seem a bit grouchy.

Bob

You hear? I suppose some may be. I've been there and hunted moose. Have hunted with at least three GOs that offer moose that have very high success rates. I've never heard of anyone being cheated out of a moose. Sheep in the north country maybe, but not moose. I'm sure it happens, but seriously doubt BC is becoming notorious for it.

The overbooking IS very commonplace NOW, but, mostly with the GOs that are foreign owned and operated for short term profits.

We are now at the nadir of BC hunting and the majority of BC people are FINALLY awakening to what is happening. It will take perhaps five years, but, a huge change is coming and the GOs will lose most of the allocations and political clout they now have.

That said, I hope that fellow members of the Commonwealth, will always be welcomed to hunt, etc., here in BC.

With good management, BC could accept twice the foreign hunters and many more residents, but, the various politicians just do not seem to care....easier, to buy votes from ethnic blocs, sound familiar?

I feel very bad that you had to experience such an awful hunt. I look forward to the day when crooked guides and outfitters are held accountable in this province. The time is coming soon.........

The really sad thing about this is that it is a reflection of the state of the game populations due to poor management in the area. In addition, poor stewardship by timber and mining interests has resulted in excessive road building and access into what used to be remote areas. The intrusion of motorized vehicles (ATV's)into remote locations is an issue which should have been addressed twenty years ago.
I am fairly familiar with some of the outfitter's areas on the upper Flathead and have some sympathy for these outfitters. Their areas have been severely compromised by road-building, high altitude timber harvest, and illegal use of ATV's in their areas. In addition, the Ministry of the Environment gives out limited entry tags which may exceed the number of animals available for harvest. The result is that the available game is limited and pressure is excessive. In many areas, it has reached the point where outfitters should be offering eco tours instead of hunts with hunting restricted to re-build game populations.
I truly enjoy spending time hunting and camping along the divide but the experience is tainted by the misuse of the area by all parties involved. GD

greydog,

Now that puts the cause of the problems in perspective and provides a realistic and healthy solution.

Along with the thieving outfitters who should be nailed to a tree for the winter.

Thanks for your post.

Steve

I agree,in part, however, the idea that any hunting by foreigners should be allowed while people like me, whose ancestors founded the area's towns and amenities, must accept any restriction, is NOT acceptable.

The resource harvesting roads were and in some cases are now necessary for the economic stability of the region and MANY of us DO NOT want a lot of "eco-tourists" around as an economically poor substitute for our once burgeoning forest industry.

The solution, is to end all GO activity in the Kootenays, both hunting and angling within five years and enforce restrictions on resident harvest and access AND do some SERIOUS predator control.

The LEH system sucks, as Bill rightly points out and we would be better off with shortened, staggered GOS for the game as well as a limited form of "draw system" to have our friends in the USA, AUS., NZ, UK and so on have some access to our hunting.

I MUCH prefer a "hunter host" system to the GOs and I think most residents would agree. I could then host some of the friends I have made here and enjoy sports hunting rather than watch our game sold by a privileged few.

Now, I have NEVER used an ATV, but, am now a bit crippled and will be 69 by next Elk season. I was born there, my family has lived there for about 125 years and, very bluntly, MY needs take precedence over some GO and his rich, foreign client!

It IS going to change and soon, I have NEVER seen local people so POed about issues of this type as now and the heat is on the gov't.

Sorry to hear of this and thanks for posting about a pos.

Wow - that's a scary one to hear. It's bad enough to hear that the OP had such a bad time with the guide & the outfitter. But moreso when I realized that I have hunted with Tyson in the past.

He was 18 or 19 at the time, and working for a different GO in the North Fork of the Flathead. That Guide Outfitter was absolutely 100% top notch, and I've hunted with them 4 times.

I only spent a couple days with Tyson, and only on foot: I never got to see him with the pack string. I won't abide anyone mistreating horses on a hunt, and certainly not the guide. This part, alone, would have ruined the hunt for me.

As said before, it's even more of a [bleep], given that the OP did far more research on the guide & GO than most ever bother to. I'm damned sorry to hear about this.

FC

Thanks for the kind words Snap

Thanks good advice yes it was a circus

Good advice thankyou

Thanks Bob

No problem Steve I just hope it helps others to not get burnt also

Damn, that sucks. I appreciate very much that you chose to share it however. That outfitter should have his license revoked for life.

Bad Online Review.

Im posting this on my website to give an honest response to very untruthful and inappropriate post.
First off (Ankle Concerns)
I spoke with Matt approx. two weeks before his hunt when he informed me of his ankle issues. We talked about how that could affect his hunt. First I offered him to come the following year (AT NO EXTRA COST). I explained to him we would utilize the horses as much as possible but the hunt would require a large amount of hiking regardless. Matt insisted he would be fine and the hunt was to commence as planned.
I had gotten to know Matt fairly well over the course of a year. I sent him pictures of past successful hunts over the summer and pictures of the scenery as I cut trail throughout the summer. He told me stories of his hunt in Africa and a hunt in New Zealand that he was also unhappy with… Matt insisted he was a seasoned hunter that could handle anything that would come at him. ( I informed him of past hunts that required “cold camping” ,intense physical work and long days.) Matt insisted he was physically and mentally prepared to do what it took.
The first day.
Yes I did pick up Matt 3 hours later than planned. Yes I did have a toe ball welded on my truck. (It was damaged a few days prior and could not be repaired until then) Yes we met Lisa at the store to pick up the majority of our food as we were to be in a different area. At this point we were still making good time to be in camp. There were problems finding horses that evening. I told Matt to head to camp and have dinner and I would find them and catch up with him shortly. Yes it did take longer than expected and I wasn’t able to locate them until early the next morning. As we drove to the area we were to hunt I apologized to Matt for the inconvienence and offered him an extra day of hunting at no cost if needed.
I should also mention Matt insisted on driving my truck while I was on foot. He felt his experience driving with trailers made him better suited than Lisa. After several warnings Matt drove further until there were no more areas to turn around. Resulting in him jackknifing and damaging my truck and the horse float.
Day 1 of the hunt…
The first day found us trailing horses into a large valley that consistently produced good elk. As promised Matt was the only guided hunter hunting out of this camp. It was at this point Matt informed me of his plans to work for another outfitter in Northern BC following our hunt, as he dreamt to be a guide in BC one day. Matt insisted I treat him like a friend and coach him along with horses as he did not want to arrive at the next outfit with no knowledge. He insisted I was up front with him regarding anything he was doing wrong as far as horsemanship was concerned. I can admit the hunt changed from here on in and Matt was treated as a companion and not a typical client.(As per his request)
I tried my hardest to coach him along teaching him everything from the basics of saddling to packing and everything in between. By day two I could tell that Matt was rethinking his Northern BC adventure as he had come to realize the amount of work the horses require. What started as someone listening and helping turned into a careless attitude putting himself and the horses at risk daily. I checked over anything he touched (when he decided to help) and found everything in dissaray. From large branches stuck under the saddle to cinches being criss crossed to upside down bridles… At one point he dismounted his horse for a bathroom break dropped the reins and lead rope as his horse turned to graze he bumped Matt. Long story short he spooked his horse and was chasing after it holding on to his tail! Throughout this time I was very firm with Matt as he requested. I told him several times he needed to know the basics before he advanced to throwing diamonds.
Now I will say this. The hunting was slow. Apart from the first week of September we received zero rainfall and temperatures stayed a constant 15C to 25-30C in the afternoons. As any outfit in the bull river will attest too. We focused in some high basins but mainly areas with wallows and dark timber. I asked matt if he was comfortable without a tent. He was fine. We did pack tarps in case of a sudden weather change which didn’t happen. There was very little sign of elk and the unseasonal heat wasn’t helping . Keep in mind we were three days into a ten day hunt at this point. As we rode out of the first big drainage I noticed one of the horses had thrown a shoe. I informed Matt of this and we discussed a plan to drop the horse at main camp and hunt another good producing drainage by foot the following day.
Day 4
We dropped the horse of by 4 am and were hiking up a large slide into an area where I had successfully guided another aussie hunter a few years prior. Up until this point Matt never complained about his foot. Not one word was mentioned. Now this mountain was steep but a mountain I had guided many hunters age 55 and above in previous years. Now this is when the “backseat guiding started” Matt questioned every decision I made as far as the hunting went. Every time we stopped every time I bugled every time I glassed Matt had a better idea. But he had watched every mossy oak video there was and was sure he knew how to do things. That was fine. Ive been guiding for over ten years and this was not the first time that had happened. We slowly side hilled up valley and encountered more and more elk sign. The most wed seen at this point. It wasn’t long before several cows were spotted below us. At this point Matt was struggling. We had been hiking on and off for about 3 hours . I feel it necessary to mention the superb athlete that I initially booked was not in fact. Matt Roe is roughly 5’5 and 240 lbs. Severely overweight for his size and age. Nonetheless we continued to hunt. It wasn’t long and Matt was exhausted. This was the most hiking we had done since the trip started. He began to whine about his ankle , I suggested we continue on a bit further then head down the ridge back to the truck. He agreed and followed. About halfway downhill he seemed to be in more severe pain. We managed to make it back to the truck And Matt was in fairly good shape. He said his ankle felt better and was happy from the amount of sign we seen. I agreed and mentioned trying this spot again in the morning, but suddenly the injury revisited us. (Can you see where this is going?) Matt had invisioned galloping up the mountain and shooting a 330 bull from his saddle which was never ever portrayed. As we arrived back at camp with horses Matt was limping pretty severely. We discussed options to ride into some other areas or rest a day and do some glassing from the truck. I gave Matt the option as only he could decide how his ankle felt. No surprise to me he elected to take the truck.
Day 5 started around 5 AM we took off from camp headed high into a cut block to glass. It wasn’t ten minutes after daylight and I had spotted several cows high in a slide. I pointed them out to Matt but he insisted they were moose. After he stared through my Swarovski spotting scope he reluctantly agreed they were in fact elk. We moved to a different vantage point and quickly I Spotted a younger 6 by 5 bull high in a nearby slide. The bull had several cows and wasn’t going far. Matt had told me he would rather go home without a bull than shoot a 290 class elk. This changed several times throughout the day as we discussed all options to hunt this elk. Matt was looking for a guarantee we would harvest this bull which of course I could not give. Although I felt with an honest effort we had a great shot.
By day 5 I could tell Matt had already been beat mentally and physically. He was depressed over his ankle, he realized he was unfit to wrangle in the north ,never mind become a future guide and was physically exhausted due to his size,weight and obvious lack of preparation for this hunt. The following day was spent the same glassing and driving. Although Matt did have an opportunity to harvest a young male blackbear. I informed him the bear was not huge but a good representation of the species. He elected to pass and scolded me for stopping in a puddle. We headed back to camp to take a nap during the afternoon heat when Matt came to me in tears, he informed me he felt he could not continue due to his ankle injuries. I tried to convince Matt to stay giving every option to at least continue hunting. We could have been lucky in any circumstance as everyone knows that is hunting. His mind was made up and he was beat down by the mountains ,injury,physical fitness, and mental weakness. Because the hunting was not as good as it had been in years passed I offered Matt a full 10 day hunt for the same species at no cost. Whenever he felt fit enough to return. At this time he was very gracious and appreciated all I had done. He spoke of future cougar hunts and we planned a date for 2017 for him to return and hunt elk. So to say I was blindsided by this report would be an understatement.
From the time I dropped him off to about a week later Matt had drafted up this report and threatened to post it on every forum he could unless I paid him over 9000$ Flights,Meals,hotels every expense he incurred travelling to Canada. I couldn’t understand why he would do this until I recalled a conversation we had about his work. Matt had mentioned he worked as a subcontractor and did not want to have surgery on his ankle until he had enough money to take approx. 6 months off work while he healed from the surgery. Being a contractor he was not eligble for any insurance coverage during this time. Im certain Matt hurt himself bad enough that surgery would be required as soon as he returned home and did not have the funds to either pay for the surgery or take time off work while he healed. Which explains why he was so intent on blackmailing me for the outrageous sum of over $9000.

The fact of the matter is Matt was not a seasoned hunter, Not a hunter at all. He underestimated the mountains he would be hunting in. Was nowhere close to being physically fit enough to hunt in BC. He was mentally beat by day 5 and totally quit on day 6 of a ten day hunt. I catered to Matt as much as I could but it was not enough. I offered every avenue to continue hunting and went above and beyond to offer him a free hunt as soon as his ankle was better.( Before any of this forum was even talked about)
There are some other facts I would like to clear up here:
-Any relations I had with Lisa Cocciolo had absolutely no effect on Matts hunt.
-At one point a packhorse layed down and began to roll fully loaded. I was very assertive to get the horse back on its feet to avoid damage to gear and injury to the horse. I have never abused any kind of animal. Working animal,pet or otherwise.
-The talk of shooting game illegally is 100% fabricated. Matt was offered legal tags for mountain goat during day 2 of the hunt but never offered to shoot any animal unlawfully.
- After 5 days of hunting we had spotted roughly 15 cow elk, 1 legal bull, several whitetail does,several cow moose and had an opportunity to harvest a boar black bear as well as countless mountain goats.
-Top of the line tents were present and offered. It did not rain the duration of Matts stay.
- There was an unusual amount of traffic on the road but we never ran into another hunter in the mountain the entire time we hunted.
-The camp we based out of had fully function and running HOT water. (Matt showered every night he stayed there)
-I spent all July cutting trails throughout the area. We suffered a bad windstorm in late august and there was some recent blow down and one trail that was nearly impassable.
-The horses were some of the best in the herd. They had been ridden all summer during trail rides.
- I have guided in that area for over 10 years. I do know it like the back of my hand. Every successful hunter ive guided over the last ten years will attest to this.

Thanks to all the awesome clients Ive guided over the years and the future ones to come. We had another exceptional cougar season and went 100% on great Tom lions.

Matt better luck in the future. My offer still stands if you would like to come back, but I will suggest better preparation if you attempt another elk hunt in the kootenays.

I do not believe the story that Matt is telling is the truth. I have known Tyson and his family for many years. He was not raised the way this story is portrayed, nor does his family in any way operate along these lines. My support stands with what Tyson Musil is telling you. I do not know the outfitter that Tyson was working with. Mickey

As a BC Resident Hunter, I would also like to add that I am very disappointed with our current situation involving our current stupid government and the Guide Outfitter situation.

Hello I'm Matt aka NSW_hunter aka MR84 and yes this is my original post
Tyson Musil's response to my report originally posted on 24hr forum shows he has stayed true to his form of lying and using exaggerations. Of the many lies this guys a told me that date back to mid June 13 I can prove via texts emails and video some but not all of his lies hopefully this will be enough to show and potential customers that he and Vince Cocciolo of Total Outdoor Adventures are to be avoided at all costs.

But firstly
I'm 30 years of age 5.9 and weigh 90kgs and have done since the age of 18 which equals 198 lbs I'm of average fitness people on the Australian hunting forum http://www.australianhunting.net/index.php?topic=174484.90 can verify this. Yes I had planned to help out an outfitter in Northern BC for 3 weeks after my hunt for free

My ankle
I became aware of the seriousness of the damage to my ankle in August 14 I quickly called Tyson and explained the potential issue by this stage the hunt was paid for in full at no point did he offer me to wait until next year he basically played down the issue saying that we can ride to elevation in all the areas he planned to hunt my specialist in Sydney said he was happy for me to go as long as I was cautious which was communicated to Tyson in the phone call.

Previous experience
Yes I have hunted in NZ on one trip for Chamois and Tahr I did not use a helicopter and hunted DOC land hiking with a back pack up from creeks/rivers onto the tops I struggled with this hunt physically as I think most Australian hunters do if you are not used to the terrain and altitude I described this hunt as physically tough to Tyson and in no way made out I was a "supreme athlete or a seasoned mountain hunter" Tyson met me in person at the wild deer show in Bendigo 2014 (prior to me booking the hunt” if he didn't feel I would be suited to this hunt why did he still allow me to book ?

Driving his pick up
Yes I did drive his car and had to reverse it down a long steep logging road which did slightly scrape his flat tray I was only driving because he left us there at night and took off after the horses on foot, Lisa Cocciolo did not want to drive as she wasn't confident reversing the trailer I didn't really have an option and expressed my frustration she then guided me to a dead end not wide enough to turn around on after doing a 100 point or so turn I managed to get the thing pointing in the right direction I doubt he had ever used his pickup with this horse float as you could only turn to around 20 degrees and then it would jack knife this with a goose neck set up !!!

Back seat Guide
I didn't dispute any of Tyson’s decisions regarding technique or where to hunt for the duration of the hunt. On the day we hiked up on foot I wanted to return to the truck due to not seeing any elk sign the only time I questioned him on was if a large pile of droppings from a single animal (the first fresh sign I had seen on day 6) was from an elk his response with attitude was no its rocking horse [bleep]. That was one of many rude comments made from him to me I have one on video you can look at I'll put a link at the bottom of this post also one of him sleeping during the day on the mountain which he did several times after calling and glassing for a while of a morning he would say we are staying here all day try to have a nap or something he would then lie down and fall into a deep sleep.

Mistreating horses
What he said about a packhorse falling over is completely untrue the horse (high tower) I witnessed him kicking repeatedly in the stomach and then punching in the face after it sat down twice whilst Tyson was riding him on a flat dirt track ! was my original horse It was a guide horse which would freak out if it was not at all times in site of the other horses for the first few days I was riding at the back of the string when leading the horses down to camp several times I could not keep up with Tyson my horse would drag me forward till I was on the ground and being dragged I did my best to hold on as I understood the hard task of trying to catch these horse's. Even after me politely explaining this issue with Tyson he still day after day continued to keep the same pace which resulted in this happening several times. I never let the horse go in his other story while I was mounting the horse it took off with me being dragged holding the reigns it didn’t pull up so I was forced to let go I had to run after the thing and did pull it up by the tail. Tyson Musil knew I had little experience with horses I told him I had only been on to trail rides before flying over at no point other that the first day did he give me any pointers with the horses other that how to saddle my horse and letting me help with the pack saddle there was no instruction about safety riding technique or what to do in an emergency.

Camp
The camp we staying in was described to me as "rustic" when I arrived I found out it had been damaged by a flood several years ago the only repairs that had been made where by the Australians that were working for the outfitter just before I arrived they had re done the floor in the main log cabin and re fitted a pot belly stove. There was no running water hot or cold until the day I left one of the Australian guys fitted a hot water tank that day and had it going.

Texts
Originally Tyson Planned to hunt in another area "Packhorse creek" I was never sent a contract then it changed to Vince Cocciolo's of the photos he sent above this text I now know that some of them where not taken in the area he is saying they are

these are his "trail cutting' photos I said before apart from the first trail we used I doubt any of the others had been cut for years notice the comment about running hot water


When we checked the zero in my rifle I asked if he could change his rangefinder over to meters he had no idea how to do it


This one if from a couple of days before I flew over that photo is right in the town of Sparwood the area is next to a main road and just to the left is a large mine I know this because we had to go to his dads to pick up his gear the first day hey says his watching elk bugle yet 3 or 4 days later the they are non-existent?



After arriving back to Sydney
[img]http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h454/NSW_HUNTER/Untitled7.jpg[/img]

Quote the talk of shooting game illegally is 100% fabricated. Matt was offered legal tags for mountain goat during day 2 of the hunt but never offered to shoot any animal unlawfully.
[img]http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h454/NSW_HUNTER/Untitled8.jpg[/img]
A full day? Quote as we drove to the area we were to hunt I apologized to Matt for the inconvenience and offered him an extra day of hunting at no cost if needed.
[img]http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h454/NSW_HUNTER/Untitled8.jpg[/img]
it was 5 days not 10 Quote Because the hunting was not as good as it had been in years passed I offered Matt a full 10 day hunt for the same species at no cost.
[img]http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h454/NSW_HUNTER/Untitled9.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h454/NSW_HUNTER/Untitled10.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h454/NSW_HUNTER/Untitled11.jpg[/img]

Before he tells me what he really thinks he says he enjoyed hunting with me
[img]http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h454/NSW_HUNTER/Untitled12.jpg[/img]

He makes out there is no way I will get any refund
[img]http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h454/NSW_HUNTER/Untitled13.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h454/NSW_HUNTER/Untitled14.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h454/NSW_HUNTER/Untitled15.jpg[/img]
Still at this stage trying to get them to work out some kind of refund
[img]http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h454/NSW_HUNTER/Untitled16.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h454/NSW_HUNTER/Untitled17.jpg[/img]
Quote the talk of shooting game illegally is 100% fabricated. Matt was offered legal tags for mountain goat during day 2 of the hunt but never offered to shoot any animal unlawfully.
[img]http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h454/NSW_HUNTER/Untitled18.jpg[/img]
Suddenly a refund is available in return for a good reference
[img]http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h454/NSW_HUNTER/Untitled19.jpg[/img]
He admits the area he recommended to me has a terrible success rate in years past
[img]http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h454/NSW_HUNTER/Untitled20.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h454/NSW_HUNTER/Untitled21.jpg[/img]
I did eventually ask for a full refund including flights and the expense of changing flights and hotel rooms but not for meals I gave him plenty of chances to come up with a refunded that he and Vince could split that never happened.

These are the texts I’ve received since he saw the original report these are sent before he posted his response and offer of a free hunt he has not contacted me offering this free hunt my any means and also makes a threat if I attend an Australian hunting show he plans to attend in early 2016. Quote Matt better luck in the future. My offer still stands if you would like to come back, but I will suggest better preparation if you attempt another elk hunt in the kootenays.
[img]http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h454/NSW_HUNTER/IMG_0911.png[/img]
[img]http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h454/NSW_HUNTER/IMG_0912.png[/img]
[img]http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h454/NSW_HUNTER/IMG_0913.png[/img]
This is attitude I witnessed from Tyson Musil for most of the time spent with him
After watching this so called "290" with a 5o x optical lense I made him out as a small 5x5 if he was a 6x5 it would have been due to a very small kicker I zoom back as a pickup was approaching from behind the road he was on lead up closer to the elk I was flagging him down to stop him spooking the elk listen to Tyson’s reaction. This was the only bull I saw on day 6 or 7 earlier we saw 2 cow elk at over a mile away with to resident hunters on horseback riding towards them egg 500 away from the elk.
The quote below is a completely lie
"After 5 days of hunting we had spotted roughly 15 cow elk, 1 legal bull"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xthbv65iPAo

Here he is sleeping on the job as mentioned earlier
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q50zvznMAY

I hope this is enough to show you that Tyson Musil is not to be trusted I hope no one else experiences what I did If you have any questions I'm happy to respond I apologise in advance if I talk a while to get back to you.

Cheers Matt

Before he tells me what he really thinks he says he enjoyed hunting with me


He makes out there is no way I will get any refund



Still at this stage trying to get them to work out some kind of refund
[img]http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h454/NSW_HUNTER/Untitled16.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h454/NSW_HUNTER/Untitled17.jpg[/img]

Quote the talk of shooting game illegally is 100% fabricated. Matt was offered legal tags for mountain goat during day 2 of the hunt but never offered to shoot any animal unlawfully.

Suddenly a refund is available in return for a good reference

He admits the area he recommended to me has a terrible success rate in years past


I did eventually ask for a full refund including flights and the expense of changing flights and hotel rooms but not for meals I gave him plenty of chances to come up with a refunded that he and Vince could split that never happened.

These are the texts I’ve received since he saw the original report these are sent before he posted his response and offer of a free hunt he has not contacted me offering this free hunt my any means and also makes a threat if I attend an Australian hunting show he plans to attend in early 2016. Quote Matt better luck in the future. My offer still stands if you would like to come back, but I will suggest better preparation if you attempt another elk hunt in the kootenays.


[img]http://i1110.photobucket.com/albums/h454/NSW_HUNTER/IMG_0913.png[/img]
This is attitude I witnessed from Tyson Musil for most of the time spent with him
After watching this so called "290" with a 5o x optical lense I made him out as a small 5x5 if he was a 6x5 it would have been due to a very small kicker I zoom back as a pickup was approaching from behind the road he was on lead up closer to the elk I was flagging him down to stop him spooking the elk listen to Tyson’s reaction. This was the only bull I saw on day 6 or 7 earlier we saw 2 cow elk at over a mile away with to resident hunters on horseback riding towards them egg 500 away from the elk.
The quote below is a completely lie
"After 5 days of hunting we had spotted roughly 15 cow elk, 1 legal bull"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xthbv65iPAo

Here he is sleeping on the job as mentioned earlier
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q50zvznMAY

I hope this is enough to show you that Tyson Musil is not to be trusted I hope no one else experiences what I did If you have any questions I'm happy to respond I apologise in advance if I talk a while to get back to you.

Cheers Matt

Appalling, simply disgusting!!

Musil's remarks about his CLIENT are totally beyond ANY scceptable form of comment in decent society and he should be ashamed of his behaviour....but, I doubt he will be.

My deepest impression is WHY would Matt bother to post his story here if it is not true as what possible benefit could he gain from doing so?

Just another example of why BC's GO industry MUST be put under MUCH tougher government regulation and enforcement. It is TIME!!!

That's terrible all the way around. I have had only one bad outfitter experience and it definitely changes things.

I hunted the Bull River drainage in 2008. It was late season and the outfitter and I hunted hard. Since it was only the two of us there were always plenty of chores for me to help with. I was after a mountain goat and passed on a bull moose. We did see mule and whitetail deer but only one buck that I would have shot. I did get my goat on the last day of the hunt. We had heavy fog for much of the hunting but when it did clear there weren't much sign of game in the fresh snow. I won't be returning. One of my all time favorite hunt photos.

No response from Tyson after the emails, texts, and videos posted? lol... Where'd you go Tyson?

Boise's post really shows the issue with the Bull and SE BC as a whole; we have NEVER had the level of scientific management required to grow our game populations to the maximum level that the available habitat will support and so the game is NOT plentiful.

MOST Kootenay people I have spoken with are in favour, with increasing fervour, of a total ban on any non-resident hunting in this region, as there is NOT enough game for we resident hunters and very probably this will continue.

That said, I would URGE all non-res. hunters to REALLY research ANY GO here in BC BEFORE sending them $$$$$ as scams and poor behaviour as well as little game available is MUCH more commonplace than all the bullsh*t hunting rags and shows would have you believe!

Seems like a LOT of evidence posted since you made the above comment, eh. Care to reply to it.

Are YOU involved in ANY manner in the GO industry and-or a member of the GOABC.

I just love these "he said she said" hunter/outfitter chit chats back and forth on websites and it's always started by a first time poster that got shafted and then tells a long story like this one. Then usually one or two come on as first time posters to back the outfitter and say he's the best there is, just as happened here! None of us knows the guy as to whether he's in decent shape and knows how to hunt/shoot or whether what he says is true or not true, just as we don't know the outfitter and person who says he's an okay guy. We can't do anything about what the hunter says happened even if it did, but if it was as said it shows that you need to do as much as possible before going on an outfitted hunt to cut down on having a bad trip. A person needs to talk to a number of previous clients that were in an area in the past couple years that didn't fill their tags to ask if they would go back with the outfitter they have in mind, rather than a couple that did fill their tags.

Yeah Tyson. Where did you go? Why don't you explain the texts for us?

After talking with two different people today it appears that I must apologise to Matt. Sorry I didn't check this story out before posting. Hopefully I will get better info on this situation soon. I based my comments on what I knew about how a person (Tyson) used to be like. A little more research on my part will confirm the truth for me. Will post what I find out. I have a couple local Guide Outfitter friends that will hopefully set me straight as this type of thing will definatly affect them. Mickey

SNAP--Missed the part about the involvement with the GO industry. No I am not involved in any way with Guide Outfitters or GOBC. Just a resident hunter that happens to know a couple people in that industry. Small town stuff. Mickey

I need to come here more often. God forgie' me, but more than a few of the back and forth shots had me about crying.

All nonsense aside though: Tyson, were I judge of this little matter, you'd be ordered to remit a 40% refund and have your guide status placed on a probationary status. Fit or not, killing a man's dream hunt with your apparent total lack of professionalism and worse, your texted/emailed responses are a disgrace to all the honest, solid, hard-working guides out there. It's reading about guys like you that hurts other outfits and does the most damage to the industry.

And not for nothing and in the interest of full disclosure, I too have been slightly [bleep] by an unscrupulous/dirty outfit once upon a time, so am sensitive to the plight of any getting hosed, especially in the case of hunters traveling internationally to hunt. After reading this goat rope, I'm thankful that my personal minor-league shafting pales in comparison to yours.

Dwayne, you are, as always, a cat I admire and respect a great deal. If ever presented with the opportunity, dinner and drinks are on me. 100% class act you are.

I don't get the issue with Tyson's emails/texts. Looks to me like he was genuinely trying over several dozen texts to make things right. There are three sides to every story, looks like this one is somewhere in the middle. Obviously the final texts from Tyson are ridiculous, but, it's easy to see how a guy would react like that When he had a client 1) quit on the hunt 2) He genuinely tried to make things right with you. 3) You slathered his name all over the internet like this.

Did you really expect a guide to pay you everything back including airfare? Do you do two weeks of work and pay someone for it? Obviously if the boss (you) has a problem you do your best to make it right, and refunding his entire fee is really all a guy can do. No?

It looks like he was unprepared for the hunt. It looks like you were too. Looking at this I wouldn't hunt with him or the outfitter, but I wouldn't take you on as a client either.

I know I have a low post count, but I'm not a shill. I have several hundred over several years under the same name on Alberta Outdoorsman if you guys think I'm a shill.

I take your point, BUT, the personal slurs about his clients physique and the THREAT implied in the comments about the show in OZ.....I see NO justification for these.

I am VERY familiar with the area, as I posted and anyone who tries to say that the Bull River, is not hunted by residents very much is SO full of it! This is among THE premier drainages in southern BC and guys from all over the Kootenays, headed there EVERY season for decades and still do.

On balance, I am NOT in Tysons corner on this.

After I had more time to read all the texts since my last post I do agree with you. There were obviously problems and it appeared that Tyson was trying to make amends. Then when the client made what I consider are outrageous demands wanting all of his money back after hunting for 6 of the 10 days and told Tyson he was contacting a lawyer I would have probably also have called him every name in the books. I think the client should be reimbursed a certain percentage, but 100% is pure BS and if he wants to fight for that amount he'll end up with nothing.

Was wondering when was the last time you were actually in this area during a hunting season and do you no the outfitter involved in this .

I see the comments as a guy who snapped. Obviously still unacceptable. I've dealt with clients where I feel like doing the same thing (whole other industry) I always bite my tongue, but I've been pretty close to giving one a piece of my mind.

Tyson was unprepared, no doubt. Sounds like the area wasn't ideal either. Obviously there must be Elk, but you don't want to do a guided hunt with huge resident pressure. I would be choked! However, I would have arrived in the best shape of my life and hunt as hard as humanly possible for 10 days before I gave my judgment.

I'm in no one's corner. I think both of these guys were misleading. It should have been settled privately which I think Tyson gave a genuine shot at.

The last thing that bugs me is that the client nevWe expressed his displeasure at the end of the hunt. He even left a tip. Pretty passive aggressive to say nothing at the end of the hunt then drop this bombshell afterwards.

Yup, you DO have a VERY sound point there and my personal concern here is really about the whole situation with GOs in BC and, especially, the Kootenays.

However, as a former business owner, in the Kootenays, I would NEVER have made the comments-threats made by Tyson, no matter what instigation was made to provoke me. So, my sympathies tend to be with the client in this instance.

Stew: My last trip to the Kootenays into the bush was last October and I will be back home in about three weeks. I actually expect to go to Cranbrook and perhaps take a run up the Bull.

No, I do not *no* THIS particular guide, but, I certainly have known many of them and several well known GOs in BC have asked me if I wanted to guide for them. Whatever......

Didn't mean the kootenays asked when last in this area, meaning the one being discussed, the guide area where this happened, during hunting season. Were you in there last fall, or the fall before or before that.
Are you involved in any way with the GO industry or a member of the GOABC.

NO, I am a retired person and have been making trips home to the Kootenays, quite often, but, not on a regular schedule.

Something is nagging at my subconscious, there is something about you that seems familiar....

I hunted with Vince from Total outdoors this year in Canada BC for a combo Moose, bear, wolf hunt that I booked at the SCI show in 2015. The camp is nice, roomy, clean, well kept. Food was so so, with a few spaghetti dinners during my 8 day hunt. The overall operation is terribly disorganized and alot of time is wasted getting things together and people sorted out. I also wasted a full day getting out to the final spike camp hunt location. We selected the spike camp option away from the cabin hunts. My partner and I each killed a moose within 1 hour of our first day hunting within 100yds of camp! probably a freak situation but the cook did tell us this was the best opportunity to score on a moose as no one had hunted this spot for over a year. The guide was awesome (Dave) . We hunted the rest of the time for wolf and bear and only saw 1 small bear and one lone moose the rest of the trip. 3 moose were killed for a total of 8 hunters that week. I don't think I would repeat this hunt given the facts and figures.

Wow this was like reading a bad novel! I don't know anyone involved, but I have been guiding in BC/Yukon for 30 plus years now so will give some advice from my perspective. First off cheaper is rarely better. The OP paid $9000 for an elk hunt...Elk hunts with some of the top outfitters in BC cost 12-14k now. References.....forget them, its a colossal waste of your time....period. Bad outfitters "cook" their references.

The best advice I can give is to look at two things. #1 How long has the outfitter been in business. The longer the better. This might not always be fair as there are some real good outfitters that haven't been in business that long, but its a good practice to consider how long they have been operating in the area. A big problem in Canada now is the prices hunting areas go for. Guys are paying huge dollars for areas nowdays. So much in fact that from a financial standpoint it doesn't make a lot of sense, so what happens is they cut corners, or overhunt their area, or both just to make payments. A good example of this problem is an area for sale right now for 7-million. How in the world could someone pay that and then expect to make money?? 7-mil would bring in more interest than could ever be made outfitting.

#2 And in my opinion the most important is find out how long the guides have been working for the outfitter. Talk to the guides!! As the original poster found out, good guides make or break a hunt. In almost every case you will spend the majority of your time with the guide NOT the outfitter. In my entire career in both BC and Yukon I have worked for 3 different outfitters. Ive been with my current outfitter for 25 years now. Outfitters that have guides who come back year in and year out are doing things right.

Resident pressure is now just a fact of life for anyone booking a hunt in BC. Even in northern BC you will find few places where you can go and not see other hunters. The Yukon is still wild, in 25 years I have never seen another hunter.

I also have to question your decision to take a mountain hunt with a bad ankle. Why not postpone it until you can hike?? Ive had my share of hunters that can't walk and it really cuts their odds of success, but Ive never met one yet that would own it....its always the guides fault. Not saying that is what happened here but the OP was obviously not in shape for this type of hunt and was handicapped right from the start. If your willing to try again for elk I would give Scoop Lake Outfitters a call....first class outfit with great guides and lots of elk.