Meet Garrett.



Here's Jake.



Getting together.

At five months we're getting down to business.









But don't think we don't know how to relax.

This dog we've been working with is quite the hunter already. He is almost five months old and I am so pleased with how far he has progressed.

I've put little if any pressure on him at this point but tried to teach him covertly. He loves the gun and the truck. Kennel has become a comfortable place. He keeps track of me and loosely quarters (redirects) when I whistle softly to him. He doesn't know any formal commands although come and heel are being worked on. He has natural talent and has pointed a handful of birds at this point. Surprisingly he has retrieved almost all of them. What a bonus!

I'm picking my hunting spots and partners with ideal training setup in mind. Trying to keep things calm and positive. I made a mistake last weekend and unknowingly put him on too many wild running birds (50+) in too open of any area (dry land stubble). He overloaded with all the scent and flying birds and simply went wild with me unable to control him. I told my party to go along without me and gathered him up and had a pleasant walk back to the truck. My bad.

My questions are how would you guys approach the remainder of the season? My gut tells me to keep it simple and fun with no pressure. Jeez he's already pointed and retrieved five or six roosters for me. Or do I consider collar conditioning and lean on him a bit? I've always been impatient with pointing dogs now that I look back with hindsight. Coming from a lab background I didn't understand the maturity/development differences. Meanwhile am I missing opportunities?

Please give me your thoughts and experience.

Thanks,

Scott

Wonderful pics.
I envy you, with having a son to share this with.
I can't help with training other than gets some videos and books, or seek professional help.
Enjoy both your son and dog, as time goes by quickly.

ScottM,

Great pics sir. The dog at 5 moths has clear talent and you damn well should be proud. Too many birds is a huge confusion to a young pup but it happens. Easy hunts that stress obedience but are a bit loose on the formal stuff are probably great for him and for you as your learning more about Jake every minute.

What your doing is clearly working, if you want more my suggestion is work on the quartering a bit and the commands. If you can trap pigeons then do so, dizzy them and plant them in situations that jake can use his nose but also can use what your training.

All in all he's doing great for 5 months and no formal training, should be a great pup for a long time.

if you feel hes solid enough to start training and collar conditioning go for it but at that age go slow and easy and let Jakes progress set the pace, if he starts to struggle back off and go back to what he knows to reinforce his confidence.

It looks good and sounds good, go with your gut....

I'm afraid to ask this, because I'm afraid I know the answer....but what is 'collar conditioning'?

Its where a dog knows a correction when it gets burned by an e collar.
Its ugly at first but a low setting and say the dog knows to turn and sit on a single whistle blast and doesn't. Whistle,knick. He gets the idea he was/is supposed to turn and sit.
It reinforces commands.
A form of disciple with out yelling or physical abuse.

Ingwe,

Please expand on your thoughts as you obviously have an opinion and experience. That is exactly what I'm looking for.

Past experience with other hard running dogs has been that a collar, when used correctly, is a tool to keep a dog within acceptable limits. I want this dog to be a big runner but I admit I don't know how to put a "governor valve" on at long range.

What say ye?

Thanks,

Scott

If used correctly and wisely e-collars work. On the other hand, having had three Eng Setters, not the breed to use it on in my opinion. Found out early with my first they are the one dog you must have patience and ability to do dog logic to win over and follow commands.

Ended up with three at one time, and they knew my displeasure and their names quite well in short order - dxxn, dxxnmit and Gawddxxnmit. I really miss those dogs.

Just not an E-collar fan, but I know if used correctly they can be effective to stop big runners. I also know a vibrate or tone collar can do the same thing. As a previous poster said, setters can be kind of soft...I much prefer training any dog, hard or soft by using honey and not vinegar on the flies...
I will qualify this by saying I am NOT a gun dog trainer..I train other stuff but have found even with big, hard dogs if they are raised, socialized and trained properly when young ( real young...) the use of aversives is usually counter productive. JMHO

Scott I'm also seeing by your pics a beautiful happy healthy little dog loving what he is doing. Nurture that, instead of trying to fix problems that have yet to show up. Work on your basic obedience and make it fun. If the dog loves coming to you when called, most of your battle is averted.

THAT is the real basic of a gun dog, to return. Reward every time he does. Yep, you have the perfect setter. Not sure if you did this on purpose, but the black around the eyes is desirable, white can cause eye problems later in life.

Also keep in mind, setters are far ranging, it is their nature. Took me a while to realize while mine might want to travel to KS, my favorite would always keep me in sight. When/if all else failed, all I had to do was go to the truck and open the door, never took longer then five minutes for her to be on the seat.

ETA- My first was a female, took me just one day to learn she was the epitome of a female trait - it's not what you said, it's how you said it. That sums up a setter.

You would be absolutely crazy to not carefully consider Ingwe's recommendations. He knows a thing or two about dog training to say the least!

However, pay no attention to his fashion advice, particularly if he suggests you start wearing leopard thong underwear!

John

Thank you all for the kind words as well as your thoughts. I really appreciate it.

I readily admit that I am a little uncertain about training these dogs. It's my nature to think that if something doesn't work as planned, I assume that I am doing something wrong. The variables of a dogs personality are hard to compute with "success". I can wrap my mind around the principle with my kids. But dogs are supposed to be predictable. You guys will probably find that amusing.

Help me with this one in particular because I worry about it (thus the collar idea). We're out on a big run. Doesn't matter if we are hunting or just playing. Normally he stays close depending on the cover. Checks in often. Excited to be with us. Next thing you know he's caught scent, or sighted something and off he goes. Hell bent for leather and I don't have a cord on him. Even if I did I couldn't catch him. No amount of calling, whistling, "hupping", or begging will turn him. I head off after him and sometimes he'll be gone for a quite a while. The roads worry me the most. Luckily most people drive slowly around here.

Without a collar how can I break that concentration? The desire to return is trumped by puppyish enthusiasm. What kinds of things would you be doing in particular?

Thanks all,

Scott

Sage grouse this fall.



Saw a few rattlers. Better get Garrett up off the ground. He loved it.

Your concern is a real one, and the E-collar may be the only answer ultimately.Would also come in handy to snake break the dog if you are in rattler country ( and it appears you are...) But you hit on one thing most folks don't, but we teach it as "Dogma"...If the dog isn't 'getting it'...whatever 'it' may be, then YOU are doing something wrong...
Gotta drop back and punt with a concept the dog does understand.

If you ultimately go with a collar, get one with a 'tone' on it too, and completely dissassociate yourself from the collar ( meaning don't yell at the dog, then shock him...) Give him maybe a little comeback whistle, then a tone...then...
I also reccomend ( as do some manufacturers) that you try the collar on yourself first to get the setting right.I keep one in my office for my students to try- not their dogs, just themselves....so they will know what it feels like.

My oldest setter would do the same, take off on a fast quest so I bought an e-collar. Tried it on me and figured slightly below mid level would get her attention. Ended up, when she got an idea in her head even the top level wouldn't phase her.

Thinking it was not working at the higher levels, tried it on myself and found she was just determined and I was a wuss. I put it away after that and learned to accept the occasional long run and her being renamed dxxmmit.

I'd let him run...up to a point, but if he won't respond and his safety is an issue, I'd whistle break him with an e-collar. That said, I respect ingwe's opinion, but running in the wide open spaces before your pup is reliable is a different deal.

Great pics!
Personally I would not get a collar yet. A pointing dog makes no mistakes his first year, he just learns how much fun the rest of his life will be. The second season is where it becomes hunting for the gun.
Yardwork overlayed with whistle will get you pretty far, if not all the way. Every training session should include some here or come training, with a whistle. Soon he will turn at the first sound, and come wagging when whistled in.
Then next year when he starts blowing off the whistle, think about the collar.
The first year is all for the pup. He will give you all the rest if you give him the first one.
Congrats on both your young hunters! A 5 month old that points and retrieves is the stuff legends are made of.

All of my dogs have always been collar conditioned at the lowest level that got their attention and always wear them hunting as "back up". With steady consistent training they are rarely used

Very nice. Not many things in this world better than a young boy and his Dog. Enjoy the places they take you.

If you use a collar, make absolutely certain you do collar condition him. There is no reason in the world for that to be an ugly process. Have someone help you that REALLY knows what they are doing - a pro would be my recommendation. Easy to ruin a great dog with a collar, but a well trained collar dog is beauty to behold. I use one all the time - one setter, six Goldens, two Labradors (one FC, one MH, two SH, and some darn good hunting dogs).

On the other hand, collar or not, your obedience is faulty at distance, which means it needs a lot more work at close range. A pheasant farm is a great place to work on this. Repetition, repetition, repetition is the key to dog training. Come to the whistle no matter what is what you need, and when you have it completely reliable at 10 yards, change to 15, then to 20 and 30, etc.

Even the best dogs, once in a while, if you do not train all the time, will get a wild hair and not respond. That's when a collar really works, but you never ever teach with a collar. You teach teach teach, then once the command is 100%, you reinforce with a collar.

My 2 cents

Hi chuck,
How's the knees?

We do get around, don't we? How are you doing?

Much better. The right is coming along so much more slowly than the left did that it is frustrating. Still can't drive. But I'm only 20 degrees away from a full bend, so I'm thinking I may still get a few pheasants this season after all. I know I'll get a duck or three!

Took j.j. the fed warden out yesterday, and we got 9.
The migration hasn't even started yet!

Now that the cold front is hitting tomorrow, it should pick right up.

Again, thank you all for the comments.

I ordered tri tronics upland sport package a few weeks ago and it will be here tomorrow. After some thought and observations I will try working with the beeper only. Most times I can tell by his body language when he is going to assert too much independence. Maybe the beep will be enough to interrupt the thought.

Question: Am I going too fast. Do I need to be doing ground work with a check cord in a more controlled setting to reinforce obedience? I am letting him do his thing and he does it very well. Commands are not yet his thing although I want him to be a well behaved setter. Not simply a big running, bird finding machine.

Also, any suggestions on associations or clubs that a guy could become involved in to motivate yourself and seek help? I was thinking NSTRA or the like.

Thanks,

Scott

Tri-tronics has a good product. However, yes, you are going too fast if you use the collar to shock. Use it to reinforce, but never to teach. Personally, I would concentrate on obedience up close - yes to a controlled setting. You can't have an obedient dog at 100 yards if you don't have one at 15. A lot of people move to quickly, skipping the basics. (This is the voice of experience, by the way.)

NAVDA would be the organization I'd suggest. North American Versatile Dog Association. Their focus is on the versatile European breeds, but teaching control to a pointing dog is the same regardless. Dr. Ed Bailey is or was one of their gurus. He's an animal behaviorist in Canada, writes a column in Gun Dog magazine. He responds to email, too.

Hope this helps! Take you time, do the basics, go gently.

You can use the tone in an attempt do interrupt bad behavior without doing any harm, but if it fails you gain nothing and if it works it might not ever work again. Better to train the response you want.

Good luck!

Use the collar on yourself at various settings before you even think of using it on the pup.
It's never too soon to put the collar on , turned off, if you really believe he won't learn the difference anyway eventually.
More yard work for sure.
An e-collar is actually just an extension of your arm.
When you get a willful refusal to obey a command that he understands, it's time to turn the collar on.
Never hit the button when you are angry.
The beeper feature is most useful, in my opinion, as a substitute whistle. If you try to use it as an interrupter, you will most likely give up that option.
If the collar arrives tomorrow, you are still at least a couple of weeks from turning it on. Do more self-education on it in the mean time.

You've got the fine dog there, and you can wreck it easily. If the birds are too plentiful, any dog will go crazy. Don't worry about it.

Finish out the season as you've been doing and over the closed months work on "come." I know that a lot of folk like e-collars, but patience and consistency worked (and still works).

Get two whistles, one with a pea and one without. Your dog's hearing is more than sensitive enough to tell the difference. One whistle is just an attention getter; "Hey, dog, there's a command coming." The other is for "come," and that's the important one.

When you blow the come whistle, the dog should come. Period. There are many reasons for it, but an example is skunks. The dog is concentrating on finding birds but you look past the dog and see a skunk or porcupine. You should be able to blow the come whistle and get him back before you have a problem.

Blow the whistle and if the dog doesn't come, mark the spot where you stand and go to the dog. Don't blow the whistle again, just go to the dog. Drag the dog (make it a bit unpleasant, but not severely) and blow the whistle repeatedly while sternly saying "come" all the way back to your original spot. Yank the dog up by the collar and slam him down on his butt and say "Good come." Don't use his name because he hasn't been good. What you are doing is reinforcing the 'come' command. A couple of episodes and the dog realizes that he can come back the easy way or the hard way. Be aware that you'll come to some sort of compromise with the dog. You'll blow the whistle and the dog will look at you. You'll take a couple of steps forward and he'll race to you knowing that you won't punish him for coming. It won't take too long until the two of you come to an agreement that 'come' means come.

The next step is to blow the come whistle when the dog gets too far out. He'll learn pretty quickly what the limits are. He'll race out to the boundary and pause knowing that you'll not be wanting him to go farther. It is all part and parcel of making the dog remain aware of where you are.

Hope this helps,

Looks to me like both "pups" are being brought along just right.

You are getting some good advice from guys that know. I tell you something I really believe in with pups. You and the pup the birds only. leave all the others behind or out of the picture period. Until your pup is trained as you want him to be. NO others. No distractions and or party hunts period. Hey you asked. Magnum man

sounds like you have a great pup, just give him time and birds, don't give any commands you can't back up but be sure he knows what the command means, the e-collar is a great tool like a long leash but not a substitute for for work, never use it in association with birds while he is young , unless he starts breaking point or when he is older and if you want him to hold to wing and or shot, but you must be extremely careful or he will start dodging birds, you have to use e-collar according to dogs temperment a little goes a long way, but he must come when you call him, and stop when you command him, could save his life and make your life happier.Good luck ( my setters name is Jake also)

What gunscrew said! Be very careful using the e-collar; you can very easily make a blinker out of what would have been a great dog. Setters are a sensitive breed, so use a soft hand and patience, and remember they take 1 1/2 - 2 years to get over the goofies completely.

Update on this pup.

I've decided to keep the collar in it's box until next year. Just letting him progress at whatever speed he wants. Everyone I've hunted with is impressed by his desire and ability. Taking that into consideration I think I'll count myself lucky and see what happens.

I've taken to carrying hot dog pieces and a whistle with me, appealing to his stomach to remind him I'm following him. Most times it's not needed but when his switch flips maybe that will sway him.

Do you guys call your dog in with "come", or simply command a general "check in"?

Enjoying both the pup and the boy. Next week....chukar!

"come", and you're taking the right road. Enjoy the unique experience that is a setter.

I use Come when I am calling them in closer and Here when I want them right next to me...then Heel. There is no set rule. This is the way my late dad did it, and it still works.

To release them I use "find-a-bird" and a light touch on the head. Remember to make sure all commands sound different. Any word works. I had a friend who used a bunch I can't post here...some vulgar, and some racial.

Almost lost the pup this weekend. Luckily the fresh falling snow allowed for some good tracking. Sometimes this dog really worries me with his unbridled enthusiasm. Once he's in the mode, he's as good as gone. Never seen anything like it. But when he's on his "A" game I've never seen a pup as good either.

For the rest of the season we will be chasing devil birds in earnest. We'll see how it goes.

You might need to bite the bullet and get him a GPS tracker.

If you keep the party hunts to a minimum, and You shoot birds over him a lot, he'll soon learn to hunt to your gun and not run off.

It sounds like you've gotten some great advise already. I know where you're comin from. I got an English 2 yrs ago and could not believe the wild hair he'd get on occasion. Just flat out gone! See ya, goodbye. Everyone who knew the setters told me patience and time. Believe me, I blew my stack a few times.They were right, he's come around. BTW I tried the e collar and another post hit it right, when he was gonna go, he was gone. It didnt matter how many or how strong the "zap" was. Patience and time. Good luck.

Love those setters!

I let my dogs cover ground! That being said, I will never let one out of the box without a GPS on it anymore. Once you hunt with one on a dog you'll never go back either. It makes hunts SO MUCH more stress free. I know it's a lot of cash, but if you loose that pup just think about how heartbreaking it would be. Start using the training collar to reinforce things when you aren't in the field. Just start on low. You'll find with most setters it doesn't take much. Sorry, gota post setter pics.

My first Setter Grace at 13yo

Grace and Willow 13yo and 9months


Willow at 1 1/2 years


Willow died of kiddney failure at 4yo


Classy


Current model....Maggie at 2yo