Would you boys over there please post some pictures of European, especially German/Austrian style antler mounts, please. I don't know about French/Belgian or Scandavian mounts as I have not seen them. They may be the same.

I have seen some old European mounts and I think they look very good. I love the stark white bone against the dark wood plaque.

Over here, at least in my part of the world, the taxidermists have the idea that a European mount is the whole skull less the lower jaw. This is stuck on a post and the post is mounted to a wood shield plaque. You can't tell them anything as they think they know it all. Personally I don't care for what they call European mounts here. They remind me of road kill someone has picked up.

The true European mounts I have seen are just the skull cap including the nasal bones mounted on a dark wood oval with some type of carving around the edges. I don't remember what the carving was. Maybe my memory is playing tricks on me but I don't think so.

So, if you would, could some of you put up some pictures that I could download and show to a taxidermist in case I get some horns I want to hang on the wall.

Thanks

BCR

BCR,

your memory is quite correct. For a decent European mount you take a guided saw and decap through the brain cavity, half of the eye, above the upper teeth and end up with a complete nasal passage.

Cleaning and bleaching gives you white bone.

The skull is then attached to the wood plate with a steel bracket. Not seen from the outside.

Here are some images.

http://www.trophaeenbretter.de/mitte.htm

I am sure, others will have pictures available. If not, I get back to you.

BCR,

There is no set way to cut a skull for a European mount...Usually its cut to remove the teeth in the upper jaw, but after that its really down to individual preferences and local traditions.

My early attempts were not very good, with the cuts varying a lot from trophy to trophy and the skulls not being as white as I would have liked. The bottom skull in the pic is an early attempt and I wish I'd done better as its a bronze meedal head!

I have now settled for what is termed the long nose cut as in the upper two mounts in the picture..



Below is a very average Muntjac that was mounted more for practice than anything else. Again its a long nose cut..





Regards,

Peter

Here's the official C.I.C. way to saw a deer skull.

Some trophy pics at random :





[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/Othello041990/Cerftt.jpg[/img]
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/Othello041990/BrocardStrihou13.jpg[/img]
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/Othello041990/CerfstrophesI.jpg[/img]
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/Othello041990/CerfstrophesII.jpg[/img]
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/Othello041990/Trophessalon.jpg[/img]

Andre; Verrryy cool. Love the Chamois with the writing on the skull....You have quite an impressive assortment of trophies, thanks for sharing.
I particularly like the fact that you (and other Europeans I've encountered)will take an animal with broken horn or other "defects" and remove him from the gene pool, but then treat him with the same respect due the other "trophies" and just as gladly put him on the wall.... We should be so inclined on this side of "the pond"...
Ingwe

Ingwe,
Bravo for your keen eye, you spotted my "unicorn", which has quite an history. He's Scottish and was infamous as a killer stag. Game wardens were after him for quite some time as they regularly found carcasses of (better) stags having been stabbed to death during the rutting fights. I was stalking that day when our pathes ran parallel on both sides of a ravine. He was 300 m away but my stalker told me to shoot him "on the house" (no fee). I went prone and took the shot, my .300 Win Mag drilling both shoulders and dropping him on the spot. That was the easy part because getting him out of there took both of us out for the rest of the day...

BTW, he was a genetic "one horner" and never wore a second antler, as shown by the absence of corona.

Fellow Campfire Members;
Thank you to Mr. Boggy Creek Ranger for starting this fascinating thread.

The mount photos from Mr. Andre and Mr. Pete E are definitely cool. Somehow I never realized a muntjac had �tusks� before. Do they use them in a similar manner that a hog does perhaps?

Due mainly to lack of space and funds, I had had European style mounts done with a Hartebeest taken decades ago in Kenya and then I did a Canadian version of it when I was fortunate enough to shoot a local California Bighorn.

Thanks to your photos and instructions, I now have the idea of what I want to do if I ever find a local elk or moose that meets our point restriction and will stand still long enough for me.

Thanks again for all who posted, very educational and very cool indeed!

Regards,
Dwayne

BC30cal,

Muntjac use those tusks for fighting and they are quite vicious with them too...On the bigger bucks its rare not to find a least one tusk damaged or snapped off all together.

And woe betide any dog that corners a wounded muntjac as they will use those tusks to open up a dog in an instant..Quite a few dogs have been killed in this way by being disembowled...

Regards,

Peter

Peter;
Thanks for the reply.

I've learned something yet again here at the Campfire!

Thanks again,
Dwayne

Dwayne,

As well as Muntjac we also have a limited number of Chinese water deer which again have tusks..

These are also one of the few species of deer where neither sex grows antlers..





These are pictures off the net as I have yet to get one of these, although they are on my wish list so to speak..

Regards,

Peter

Peter;
Thanks for these photos as well.

I've never even imagined that "Sabertoothed" deer existed.

They are most unique indeed, I can see why it would be on your "to do" list.

Good luck on shooting one and please put up a photo if you get one.

Regards,
Dwayne

Thanks for the story behind the trophy...I've got a few of those "off-beat" trophies myself, and there is usually a good story behind them... like the old, tired, worn Hartebeest bull I snuck up on within 50 yds. and shot with an iron sighted .303 British.....only to find out he was blind on the side I snuck up on!
Thanks again!
Ingwe

Andre, Oh, and yes, that old Hartebeest is "European" mounted!
Ingwe

I'd be using a 375 on the tusked deer!

Anymore I like 'European' mounts more than any other form.

As far as cleaning skulls for European mounts, avoid using any degreasing chemicals that are too harsh, or whitening the skull with ordinary bleach as the bone is liable to corrode and become pitted as in these that I did:





Edited to add the stag's skull has been cut in a way which is typical for the UK, particulary Scotland..

As I mentioned earlier, personally I now prefer the "long nose cut" as done in some of the Red trophy's of Andre's...To me that is a far more pleasing cut than either a full skull or just the "plate"...

Ok, maybe I am out of date or maybe it is local preferences. I hunted in Hessen in 1980, 1981 and 1982 and in lower Bavaria in 1991 and 1992. The small game like the roebuck and the chamois was short cut and placed on a plaque as shown. The larger deer like the red stag and the fallow stag was cleaned, bleached and hung whole, minus the lower jaw.

Since returning home I have done my whitetails much like the roe deer.

Pete, what strange big games you have in the UK.

So you have the red stag, the roe deer, the muntjac, the sitka deer.

Do you have fallow deers ? wild boars ( I heard the specie was about to come back your side of the channel) ? Rams ?

grand_veneur,

Available in the "wild" and available to stalk "fair chase" we have:

Red
Roe
Fallow
Sitka
Muntjac
Chinese Water deer
Wild boar (recently restablished, but very localised)

And depending if you view them as worthy of being classed as a trophey or not, we also have feral goat and feral soy sheep, but again the populations very localised...

Regards,

Peter

Thanks Pete.

I did hear boars were coming back (and some in Paul McCartney's Neighbourhood ... ).

Altjaeger

I've travelled quite a bit around Germany, Austria, Belgium and France and there's no real uniformity when it comes to trophy cuts...Local preferences and traditions along with "fashion" ie what people see in the hunting magazines or on the net all plays a part.

The only time it really matters if you are having a trophy scored by CIC. With Roe for example, the whole skull (less the bottom jaw) is weighed...If you have cut your skull, set compensationary points are awarded to make up for the lost weight. However, most people would say that these compensationary points are not very generous and its far better not to cut the skull if its to be scored..

If you look at that first pic I posted of the three Roe heads, the bottom was measured as a bronze medal just missing silver..

The reaon it was cut so short was done to my stupidity.

On getting the Roe back home, I took the head off and put it in a bucket of water to soak while I dealt with the carcass...

I had skinned the carcass, and was part way through butchering it when it dawned on me my Border Terrier was not hanging around as per usual when meat was in the offing.

A dire feeling of dread came over me as I went to look and found the over turned bucket...Further searching found him behind the shed happily chewing on the head!

Luckily he'd not had time to cause too much damage and one very short skull cut later things didn't look as bad as I first feared. I couldn't get too mad as I'd taught him to track using discarded deer heads



Regards,

Peter

These pics are from various places in Germany and Austria.

In the more rural mountainous areas it was quite common to see the wood built houses adorned in various skull mounts. In a couple of places, the front doors to the houses would be left open to display some very impressive trophies in the hall way..













[img]http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l237/PeteUK24/IMG_0335.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l237/PeteUK24/IMG_0336.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l237/PeteUK24/IMG_0337.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l237/PeteUK24/IMG_1394.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l237/PeteUK24/IMG_1404.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l237/PeteUK24/IMG_1405.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l237/PeteUK24/IMG_1406.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l237/PeteUK24/IMG_1407.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l237/PeteUK24/IMG_1408.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l237/PeteUK24/IMG_1409.jpg[/img]

Sorry Pete, but it seems such displays aren't very feng shui

alright.....where abouts does one hunt the saber-toothed deer(muntjac) and what kinda odds at actually getting the chance at one and what sorta trophy fee are we talking about for a Yank to come over and have a chance at one? im one for the oddball species.......my ideal African safari big game animals are hyena, croc and hippo

Great photos Pete. I guess dogs, like kids, can be a mixed blessing!

One other thing I saw when displayed on the front of houses was a carved head not unlike our shoulder mounts. The skull cap would be sawn with the antlers. These would be placed in the carving and a wood cap closed over it, leaving a wooden should mount. Normaly they were set over the door or at the peak.

rattler,

Muntjac breed like rabbits so there should be no problem getting a crack at one, nor should they be too expensive..

CWD are rather more restricted in range and to hunt them commercially can be very expesnive...

Both species are the most common down in centrel /southern England and you could hunt any of the other species with out travelling too far either. Muntjac can be stalked all year around as they are "aseasonable" breeders and have no close seaon, but the bucks tend to be in hard antler September through to March ish, but again they are not as fixed their shedding cycle as other deer.

Regards,

Peter

thanks for the info Pete......

Thanks a lot to all. I thought I was right.

cmg in the link you posted which I assume is from a taxidermy supply catalogue in the picture the one in the fourth row on the right is what I am talking about. Surely do like that one. Wish I could get one like it.

Andre thanks for the skull drawing. Now I have something to show them when/if I ever get a head I want to hang on the wall. You have some good stuff on your walls I enjoyed looking at them.

Pete the one in the first group bottom is just exactly what I would like to have done with one. Isn't that a roe deer?


BCR

BCR,

All three in that pic are Roe deer...

Just a question, but why don't you do the skull yourself? There's a bit of time and work involved, but its not too difficult once you know what you are doing..

Its a little easier for us as we can get a "jig" to put the skull which for the DIY challenged like me, helps a lot..Having siad that, cutting a saw "free hand" is not that difficult as long as you plan the cut/angles before you start...

I tend to do it before I boil the skull out as the skull is a bit stronger and less prone to breakages..

Regards,

Peter

Good Lord Pete, lots of things are easy if you know whotinhell you are doing!

Until I got that picture of how to cut the skull I couldn't figure the angle when I'd put a head up against a board. Whitetail antlers don't stick so straight up as roe deer antlers do.

I just may give her a try now that I sort of have an idea of what in hell I am doing thanks to you good folks.

BCR

Boggy, I DID note that Pete admitted to being DIY challenged!!! If he can does it, we can does it!! (now where did I put that hacksaw???)

It's pretty much a personal choice if you do the mount yourself, which I've done from day one hunting Europe. I like the longer cut to include the nose bone, even for Reh. When I have a bucket full I go to a shop with a bandsaw and it makes short work of it, cutting just under the nose bone thru the top of the top teeth and then a minute on the big belt sander gets them nice and flat. Interesting thread, Waidmannsheil, Dom.

Well, I tried to put a couple pictures up but it's just not working for me here :-(

I've done a couple whitetails and even antelope:

And not a muntjy, which I've never hunted, but a Roe deer I shot a few years ago had one eyetooth. Even whitetails can have them, but you'd have to skin the skull or chances are you'd never notice it:

BCR,

I'd recommend some practice with doe skulls or spiker skulls until you get a proper feel for making the cut..

Use a fine toothed wood saw as the broad width of the blade helps to keep the cut straight, unlike a butchers bone saw or hacksaw..

Once you've cut the skull you can either simmer it slowly for about 45 minutes to an hour, or put it in a bucket of water for about a month and let the bacteria rot the meat off..The water needs to be warm (around body temp) to allow the bugs to thrive, so the process won't work in winter unless you warm the water with a fish tank heater or similar...In your case, seeing as you like the very short cut skulls, I'd probably simmer it and get it over and done with...

Regards,

Peter

Thanks for the advice Pete. If I am going to simmer it can I throw some carrots and onions in the pot? Hate for that to go to waste.

BCR

Sure, and do it on the kitchen stove too Your cookery will be talked about for days!

I tried that many years ago with an antelope skull....come to think of it, thats about the time my first wife went away....
Ingwe

And dont get chatting on the phone! youll ruin the mount and the kitchen will never smell the same again

Don't listen to ingwe or UKDave, you go ahead and put a few carrots in with the head and it will be fine to boil out in the kitchen...

Hi,

Here are some typical mounts used in France, these trophies took by my gunsmith friend and my are exposed in his shop in Marseille.
Will try to show you more next time.
Regards
Dominique

Some few of us are. I got me a "cull corner" going..... screw the 'trophy room...

I know this thread has run it�s course but I just came across it. I�ve successfully used a technique for over 40 years that I came across as a lad in a hunting magazine. First locate a chunk of 4x4lumber and evenly cut off a piece 4 or 5 inches long. Next, draw a straight line down one side. Then drill a series of 3/8 inch holes closely spaced down the line to a depth of perhaps two inches. This block of wood allows you to insert a pencil into the hole at the height of your choice.

I will skin out a head, discarding the eyes and lower jaw, then place it upright on my work bench. Next I hold the head in place while I �slide� the wooden block all around the head/skull, all the while inscribing an even line around the head. I prefer running my line through the bottom third of the eye socket, which results in a nice triangular shape that includes the entire nasal cavity.

I�ve always boiled my heads on the kitchen stove, and if done with fresh heads, have never stunk the house up. I�ve used this technique on the heads of goats, sheep, deer, elk, and antelope and have always been pleased with the results. I use a hacksaw to cut along the line. Sometimes, on sheep and elk, it�s hard to make just one cut because of the horn/antler configuration. But the hole marking and cutting process rarely takes more than 10 minutes.

Cheers!
Matt
Jackson, Wyoming

Matt,

I've heard of that technique but never seen it done...For Roe, I have a "clamp and saw guide" the skull fits into and lets me cut it correctly every time, while for large skulls I tend cut them free hand using a fine toothed wood saw..When it comes to DIY, I'm not the most co-ordinated person in the world, and I find the large flat surface of the wood saw doesn't tend to want to "wonder" like a hack or bone saw...

Also, if you leave a little extra bone all around when you make the cut, minor mistakes can be straighted, "lost" or evened up by holding the cut surface onto a belt sander...

Regards,

Peter

Peter,

I agree that using the wood saw is sometimes the best technique. You are most certainly correct in suggesting that one should leave a little extra material on the skull to adjust for mistakes. I've always had a lot of fun making my own European mounts. It allows me to nicely display my hard-earned trophies without breaking the bank.

Take care!
Matt
Jackson, Wyoming

I have made up 2 x roe deer and also numberous fallow deer skull mounts and I agree that a fine toothed wood saw is a good idea. A trick I learnt was to put a little flour in the 2 holes in the roe skull so that it leaves 2 white spots on the mounting board. That helps locate the screw of the mounting clamp so the skull sits right on the small wooden sheild.

But what no one has touched on yet is how to write "Knadenwald Tirol" or whatever on the bone of the skull. I'm sure this would require a particular ink, for instance.

The German made sheilds come with a stick-on label for the rear of the mount for this information to be included. Also many of them come with an optional small recess for one of the pieces of the cut-of jaw with teeth attached, so that the animal can be approximately aged. There's also a swiveling piece of tin to keep it from falling out once it's stashed away.

I helped a taxidermist measure and old set of moose antlers once, and he told me that old antlers can dry out and crumble and the points lose length. So I now use Ballistol to keep them clean and protected. I used to use Dunc's Antler Creme, but I'm not sure if it's still available.

I've seen a few skulls that have been written on in that manner here in the UK, but it doesn't seem to be as popular as on mainland Europe.

As far as a suitable pen, I would try a fine tipped permanent marker of the type designed for writing on CD's/DVD's....Obviously try it on a "scrap" skull first...

Regards,

Peter

Hi Kiwi,
Here's the "Gnadenwald" Chamois mount .
My (soon to be ex-, unfortunately) son-in-law wrote the caption in Gothic script (he's German), using a sort of Indian ink and special drawing pens (a felt marker can be used but it will bleach with time).

Good advise, thanks. I just might give it a try on a doe skull.

What Ingwe said.

Cut the fugger, bleach it, hang it. I just don't care what you all think of it!

All very interesting and informative .a german fellow whose house i worked on in victoria BC had about 100 mounts most of them non typical ..he managed a part of the black forest in germany. to pete there are also fallow deer on southern vancouver island and off shore islands introduced many many years ago

Peter
Thinking you mean "Sika" not Sitka deer?
art

Art,

Well spotted and quite correct; while we have a have a couple of subspecies of Sika, I don't think we have any feral populations of any of the North American deer, mores the pity!

Regards,

Peter

All my fault, I wrote Sitka in my question to Pete, I thought it was the correct English word for Sika.

Pete E - The attached link takes you to a site that gives the best step-by-step instructions I've seen on preparing a skull. FYI - don't use bleach to whiten the skull, use hydrogen peroxide!

http://www.javelinahunter.com/preparing_a_skull.htm