https://www.gunbroker.com/item/884381107

Thoughts?

Any warning flags?

Just a few thoughts,
- Mint, never hunted?
- No pic of the bolt face
- No pic or mention of specialized magazine spring with ‘3’ stamp that is unique to the 7 M/M?
- 22G rear sight on a 1954 gun with MC stock?
- Was Winchester still making 7 M/M barrels in 1949?

The seller is from Connecticut. My guess is that rifle could very well have been put together by an employee. Everyone knew someone who worked at Winchester during the 40s, 50s and so on.

Thanks Pocono, that's the sort of info I'm looking for.

I will inquire of the seller as to the mag spring.

Seller responded as follows;

The bolt face picture has been added to the Gun Broker pictures. There is no stamp on the magazine spring, thanks for your interest.

Pocono hits on some great points. I'll add that I don't think that is the original stock: Looks kind of whittled on in the inletting to me. The statement about it not being shot, is ludicrous. Its had mounts on it and the bolt face shows wear. Nice rifle though.

I would expect anyone with a rifle that rare would have a letter from the Buffalo Bill Museum validating it authenticity. A rifle without such a letter would be a red flag for me.

I grew up in the upper Connecticut River Valley of NH/VT and because the railroads ran north/south through the heart of the gun building area of CT, there were a lot of "lunch pail" gun from all of those manufacturers. They often ended up in areas adjacent to the main railroad hubs. I don't know that this rifle is one of them, but anything that is rare and of high value is a candidate for being counterfeited.

I don't believe it's possible to get a letter from Cody for model 70s

I didn't know that.

I have letters of provenance that came directly from Winchester for my pre-'64 Winchesters. My Father got them back in the 1950s and 1960s for all of the less common rifles that he accumulated between 1937 and 1990.

I am to lazy to look tonight, when did Winchester start putting hollow bolt knobs on Standard rifles?

1952. What's concerning to me is the 1949 barrel on a 1954 rifle.

Thanks BSA, I was thinking that they started the Featherweights in 52 and the standards later.

Yep, no problem. According to Rule, it was one of the changes implemented in mid '52. Of course that doesn't mean all of them were drilled after '52. I've seen some 1953 rifles with the solid bolt knob, even fwt rifles made in '53, but the change implemented was for all model 70's in mid '52. A lot of guys think only the fwt rifles were drilled, but that's just not the case..

1954 barrel clean up gun. It has been shot and carried a bit. The stock and butt plate jumped right out as having less wear than floor plate and swivels. The receiver sight screws say it had a receiver sight at one point and it might have had a mark or notch even for it, hence the "new" stock. The 22G was probably original as well. I don't have a knowledgeable opinion of the special spring on a 1954 barrel clean up gun.

ETA: I believe the gun to be originally a Winchester made 7M/M. The stock mismatched with the 22G sight is the biggest concern. I think the gun was used and personalized in it's long life. Mid 50's Win 70's had some yellowish wood at times much like this one. Whether it came with this stock and a Marbles 69 sight or a 22G and a low comb stock, we will probably never know.

Sorry, but usually the "barrel clean up" guns had barrels that were stamped "54"... Thats a good guess though..

Nope sorry. Barrel cleanup guns were just that; old barrels held back for replacements that they decided to move down the road. Many 1954 carbines in rarer calibers had 1936 thru 1949 barrels. Bank on it.

Bidders apparently don't see the issues being raised here with the bids reaching the level they have. With a rifle of that rarity you may be paying your money and taking your chances.

And you have seen all these carbines that were cleaned up in 1954? How were they stamped? Just out of curiousity? As some know here, the 7mm was discontinued in 1950. Going back to the 1954 clean-ups, carbines in general. They were not stamped "54" on the underside of the barrel? You want me to "bank on it"? How much money do you have? Feeling lucky? I've seen a few clean up barrels. You want to guess what they have stamped on the underside? From what I see, the stock is not original to the rifle. It is very likely the barrel is not either. Its pretty easy to put together a rifle and make it look untouched and factory original. If I remember right, you also thought the 300H&H carbine barrel, I posted from ebay, was legit.. I suggest you get some updated glasses...One thing about these old model 70's, is almost anything is possible. On the rare ones, its best to be more vigilant and mindful of fakes. Like bobin used to say, he wouldn't touch the rare ones with a 10 foot pole. Neither would I, when things look suspect..

My understanding, Winchester didn't make any 7mm chambered barrels postwar. The metric chamberings all "pre-war creatures. Rifle in question, the topside chambering marking near the receiver, an earlier marking location. While correct for the carbine barrels, possibly not so such location for the more common standard length 70 barrels even of prewar> Seems to me, the chambering stamp should be with main-group nomenclature forward of the barrel sight boss. Critical, that barrel should be wearing an integral-forged ramp. If not, believe it's not genuine on that count without having to seek further!
Lesser 'certitude', but I also think that most all the "barrel clean up guns" were actually made up in the latter forties and most, even marketed into the fifties, were on receivers with the 'elder' cloverleaf tangs. The early postwar barrel clean up guns were cataloged. The '54 bunch, I believe were uncatalogued and primarily wholesaled out to Winchester distributors - but that a 'shaky' opine! I could well be wrong concerning this, but comporting to my recollection having read it in Rule or possibly Whitaker's book. Because my thoughts here are not set in stone, I wouldn't want to disparage that pending sale. Simply just expressing my doubts. I'd sure want to do further research before bidding! My one solid point, the integral forged front sight ramp inclusion critical!
Just my take!
Best & Keep safe!
John

I know of two M70 250-3000 SAV carbines, one pre-war and another serialized in 1947 that were stamped with a barrel date of 32 (began life as barrels intended for the M54). Barrel dates, caliber designations, inspector stamps and index marks were put on the underside of the barrel when it was actually made.
Pretty sure that the all barrel clean-up guns all had earlier barrel dates than the S/N’s would indicate, think of it, why were they called clean-up barrels? Winchester certainly wasn’t cleaning up newly minted inventory.

Very interesting and informative thread. Much appreciated. I suppose one could contact Roger Rule (I think he is still with us), otherwise with all the fakes out there, I imagine the only two sure fire ways to be certain is either a provenance letter or one with the original box.

There were a lot of carbines made in 1954 due to the barrel clean up. That is why I mentioned those. I owned one or two and saw many more back in the 80's and 90's. They made standard guns in the less seen calibers as well.

I don't know when they quit cataloging 7M/M as a standard offering; a comment was made about no "post war 7M/M, but they would still have barrels made for International sales.

Yes they marked the undersides with caliber so they knew what it was and date made. That is why those markings are usually not as crisp as the roll stamps, which were applied during the barrel finishing process.

Look at the gun in question. The proof marks are aligned and there is bluing loss as they were proofed after finishing. I have no doubt Win made the gun. Somewhere along the line it was changed a bit, as it has seen some use and is definitely not unfired! The first side view of the buttplate caused me more pause than anything; it almost looked aftermarket. It may well be just fine and original. Then the MC stock and 22G rear sight are mismatched but perhaps the guy liked 22-G over the Marbles 69 and changed it out.

Every 7 M/M I ever saw brought north of $5,000.00 or was at least listed that high. I don't know what the current bid is but it is a valuable gun and if not 100% right it wouldn't be hard to make it right.

ETA: It all could be attributed to camera angles, lighting, plus dig-cams showing what the eye doesn't see. The big fib is the unfired tale.

Over 7k with 6 hrs left.

Nyrifleman: Yikes - someone is going to have a $7,000.00+ "project" to get that Model 70 back to "righteousness" - that should take only another few hundred dollars though.
The current price on this not quite original Rifle makes me sad that I didn't pursue more of the "rare" calibers with serious vigor (money!) back when they were in the $1,200.00 to $1,500.00 range!
Long live the Riflemans Rifle.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

$7,276 winning bid.

I think Jack O'Connor had Winchester make him a 7x57 sometime in the fifties. If I remember right, he said it was their last remaining 7x57 barrel.

That's correct StGeorger. JOC obtained that M70 in 7x57 in 1955 from his friends at Winchester. He cites this in his "Forty Years With the Little 7mm" article and I believe I've read it elsewhere. He was told they had exactly one (1) 7x57 barrel left so they assembled the rifle for him. He then sent that rifle off to Al Biesen who "turned down the barrel, shortened it to 22", put a release button for the hinged floorplate in the trigger guard, checkered the bolt knob, made a stock of good French walnut, mounted a Weaver K4 scope on a two-piece Redfield mount."

Do pictures of the JOC rifle exist?