Sorry if this has been covered before, I usually don't read this section and a search came up with nothing.

I have duplicated this with a number of different methods both natural and spirit stains. But I am curious about the evolution of this color. I know the origins of the finishing of old flint locks but there is sort of a gap between the very earliest finishes to when they started putting the god awful muddy stain on the latest editions.

What I understand is there is a progression from: Alkanet root, Garnet shellac, Dragons blood, madder or other traditional stains & red lead, then at some point they started using the red dye used to mark farm fuel. Around this time Winchester also went from staining the wood to staining the finish, if I am correct on this. Later things were replaced by aniline dyes. What I am curious about is what was used from the turn of the century to the war time era finishes? The transitional period is where I have lost track of what Winchester was using. Anybody have any information on this?

I’d post this on the Winchester Arms Collectors site.

The Model 70 books have some info on stock finishes though mostly on pre'64 models. Sorry I don't know which M/70 book is a better source for this info, I sold both of mine when prices hit $300 + a few years ago.

Thanks that may be the info I am looking for the transitional period.

I remember seeing some of the Winchester books at half price books and I felt they were over priced at $15.00, what a Maroon, should have bought the entire shelf.

Found some additional information. Around 1900 Winchester started using "Toned Lacquer" on the gumwood 22 I believe a model 52. At some point they started using this on the model 54 and then the 70s. What it is toned with is a guess but probably an aniline stain or at least post WWII it would be. Earlier ones could be a more traditional stain like logwood, madder, alkanet root or dragons blood.

The high grades were offered with an oil finish and this too was tinted apparently. With what will require more digging.

More info: Nitricellulose Lacquer was not invented until 1930 for the automotive industry. As early as 1866 they had a lacquer finish, this was probably shellac or seed lac, probably the garnet red or tinted with red lac dye. Later they did switch to a lacquer finish but had the option of a varnish or oil finish. As late as the 1950s they were still using a red oil finish, this was probably an alkanet oil and was used on special order or the high grade guns.

This just goes to show why even with the pre 64s there will be a lot of variation in the finish.

When you speak of the transitional period and Winchesters, in the same sentence, most people think you are talking about 1947-1948. As Poconojack stated, the Winchester Arms Collectors Assn would be the best source of information. I guarantee there’s someone there that will be happy to tell you more than you ever wanted to know about the subject.

Looks like you may be the expert on Winchester finishes.

I think I recall an article in one of the quarterly WACA magazines. Definitely post over there.

Thanks, I went through their forums and a lot of info on M70s but a gap between the wars and more so WWI to 1900 and earlier.