Got involved in a conversation at the LGS the other day about Post 64 FWT’s. Someone was talking about how superior the quality on the Portugal FWT’s are compared to earlier FWT’s. I said I would rather have an early New Haven FWT XTR and, or a Classic Stainless FWT CRF G-5 Digit SN# with the old trigger any day. Of course everyone is entitled to their opinions. I am surely quality on both are fine and subject to everyone’s own opinions. Any comments / thoughts on Portugal vs New Haven Post 64 Featherweights?

I'll get my popcorn. Although in this forum, we are pretty civil. I wont badmouth the BACO too much, but believe the infamous Winchester model 70 should be made in the states. I do like the fwt models the op mentioned and have not seen qc issues with them, but I've heard there have been some issues with the latter models (7 digit classics). Like anything I guess. My favorites are the pre 64's, but the look of the classic featherweight stocks are nicer. Even nicer/more appealing than the Portuguese fwt. For some reason, the baco stock looks like a pregnant guppy, as compared to the pre 64, XTR, and classic stock. I hate to mention the box trigger in the BACO, because its not liked by the die hard model 70 guys. I can personally live with it after I install an ernie spring and get the pull weight down to 2.5 pounds. The pre64 style trigger always needs to be fine tuned as well. I like a crisp clean 2.5 pound pull and you cant get that with just an adjustment. As far as hunting rifles go, all of the model 70's are great. They all need to be properly glass bedded to achieve the best/most consistent accuracy. But once done right, you never have to worry about it again. Thats my take.

ihave a few of each, fit nd finish are far better on the purtugese rifles, andnthey generally come with nicer fgured wood

Much as it pains me to say it, the metal work on the Portuguese guns is better and more consistent than 1990’s/2000’s USRAC’s. At least as far as the stainless rifles…

I hate to say it, too, but I have had both, and currently have 4 Portuguese-made model 70s (2 Super Grades, 1 Featherweight, 1 Alaskan). The Portuguese made guns are the best rifles to ever carry the name Model 70. Accuracy is fantastic, triggers are exceptional, and fit and finish was better than any US made M70 I've ever owned or seen. They are at least as good, and in some ways better, than any other M70 produced anywhere at any time.

I love pre-64 M70s. Heck, I even liked my post-64 M70 push feed, which I think was better than my Remington 700 BDLs. (Wish I still had that post-64.) But I think the only reason to take a US-made pre-64 over one of the Portuguese-made M70s is nostalgia. Nostalgia has value so it's a valid reason. But the Portuguese guns are by and large better.

Browning taking over production of Winchester guns is the best thing that has happened to them in a very long time. FN Herstal owning and controlling all of it doesn't hurt either.

My newest M70, a Super Grade .30-06, which now wears a Leupold VX-5HD 2-10X in Talley Rings.

Wow! That Super Grade is one sexy rifle.

It's hard not to love a Super Grade.




I have one in .270, too. I'll have to take some pics of that. It's as stunning at this .30-06.

The only thing that's off-putting is the weight. It's heavy. 8lbs without a scope.

This.

I have owned quite of few Model 70s circa 1990-2000 and I was told that the only thing different with the BACO rifles from the NH rifles was the trigger, can anyone elaborate?

I’m with BSA.. His thoughts echo mine pert near identical.

I think the machining and such is pretty nice on most of the BACO guns and the wood on some of the SG’s and French Walnut SGs is downright beautiful.

Certainly nothing to be ashamed of in that beauty, Herr Glock! From the days of the Model 54, believe 1934 forward, the Wincher bolt rifles with essentially the stocks (such as cheekpieces/butt drop angle, checkering pattern excepted), much the same. Only a few of the very early nineties SG labeled models without such as the black forend tip & SG swivels something of a dip. Otherwise, seems the SG image largely sustained! My .338 Win from '93 has tiger striping & quite nice. My 338 Win vintage 1960 also a beauty, with the more traditional pre '64 cheekpiece. Happy for the few I own!

As far as Browning parent. I can't particularly comment beyond generalization. I do understand their main focus nowadays, armaments. On wider scale, so many of the old quality names are now in Chinese inventory. Some of them good/great products, too many others... Not. I tend not to identify by brands in many such instances. With Winchesters, the only truly dark period in early '64+ era with material 'hit' to the brand. The Model 70... What to say! Pretty terrible. Their lever group finish pretty poor and only a bit better across the better part of two decades!

I've generally stuck to the older Winchesters, as many other brands. But SG's like the above, a definite lure!

Just my take!
Best!
John

Browning really wanted to make a show with their 2008 limited edition fwt. That was the best BACO in my honest opinion:



After my gunsmith screwed an EW barrel on it. ^^^^

They were the sweetest BACO made. Many of us were so happy that the model 70 was being brought back, we didn't care by who. At first it was FN who was involved and that was a great thing, as most of us know FN was putting out some excellent chidt at that time, but mostly military contract stuff. My FN PBR XP was one of them. A highly fine tuned classic model 70, that FN was responsible for:

The accuracy was insane and the function was second to none. One hell of a fine piece of equipment, much like the first BACO's to leave the factory. Those were the 2008 models. Guys like 79s say the Portuguese model 70's are better in every way, but not better than the first model 70's BACO produced. At that time, they were proud to be bringing the infamous model 70 back and they took more time to make them right.

I'll bring the butter..

You're totally correct on all that...

I have a new one in the pipeline. Had a choice between a FW SS .270 and a EW MB .308. They weigh nearly the same, but I have two .270s, and only one .308, so the EW won. Should come in at about 8lbs, scoped.

Gonna explore the mysteries of 130gr TTSXs in this one. Midway has them on sale.

My FW in .308 is Portuguese. It's sub-MOA with Norma Whitetail 150 gr. I'm more than satisfied, even if the wood is a bit plain.

As the OP said, we are all entitled to our opinions and I'll get flamed for this, but I think the Portugese M70s are as good, or better, than any M70 Winchester ever turned out.


And while I'm at it the much heralded New Haven M70s of a few years ago gave us nothing but trouble at the LGS where I worked ( and we were a Winchester authorized repair center)

The BACO and Portugese guns are better.

these model 70 discussions always attract we model 70 admirers' interest. The pictures of the pretty wood are enjoyable to see. we all like nice wood. but if you buy the "form FOLLOWS function" theory which I do, then the appearance and even accuracy to an extent, follow reliability. And for that reason, I'm in the pre-64 camp because predominantly of the actions. And a lot of that is based on my hunts in wilderness settings where reliability is really what you want more that anything else. So the one piece bolt and old trigger proven over decades of hard use are part of that reliability issue. I don't get excited about whether the rifle will shoot groups 1/2" less on calibers that I use mostly like .300 WM or .375 H&H. Even in the area of accuracy, I have found that a tuned pre-64, at least the ones I own, can be made to shoot really good, and some, like my .375, incredibly good. As a matter of fact, that .375 and my standard grade .270 shoot, or at least were easier to get shooting really good, than some of my re-barreled pre-64s. I keep going back to those few pre-64s that were used for decades in harsh conditions by some famous outfitters. They were factory guns that just worked, and worked and worked without failure. thats what I admire in a serious hunting rifle. because the new ones have only been on the scene for such a short period of time, in another 20-30 years we'll know if they have that same functional reliability.

Is there any indication they won't be? The "new" CRF M70 has been on the market for nearly 30 years. The M70s coming out of Portugal have been flowing for nearly 10. I haven't seen any indication of any inferiority to the pre 64s.

I love the 2008 BACO FN Deluxe limited edition. I think that the JOC Specials were just that. The best factory rifle probably made. They weren't done at a custom shop but they feel like it.

I own 1 BACO made model 70 and it’s a South Carolina made rifle, the early ones still used leftover parts from new Haven I think the first ones like you had all still had Williams bottom metal. The FN plant is South Carolina was never intended to build sporting rifles. It’s purpose is to provide weapons to the military. The 240B along with m16 and m4 are made there. Also baco has control over the stocks since the stock making operation for BACO is located In Portugal. Anyhow enough of that. I consider some of the best made model 70’s besides pre64’s are the 5 digit classics now you talk about fit and finish.

That '81 XTR of your daughters is a fine specimen too. Don't leave that one out of the mix..

My sons both had Classic SS .270s and both had issues; one with the hot glue squirted into the recoil lug recess willy-nilly, and the other with the floorplate latch. I adjusted the triggers on both.

I would prefer the old trigger, but won’t sweat the new one. Maybe if I was planning a wilderness hunt I would replace it with one from that place in Alaska and have the bolt handle spot-welded, but since no one is gonna carry me into the backcountry, I think the stock setup will do.😛

Now, with their budget XPRline available, the M70 can be the high-end line it should be for those willing to pay for it.

I'd agree with you on the new trigger, it can be adjusted but its a PITA and yeah the Shoe Goo "bedding" at the lug is deplorable.

I've had three of the Extreme Weather M70s in the last 6-8 years. Two were in .30-06, one in .308. All were capable of decent hunting accuracy but each gun was very picky as to which bullets it would shoot accurately (consistent groups of an inch or less). All these rifles appeared to be very well made and functioned perfectly. I no longer have any of these rifles, but if I found another that was accurate with a variety of bullets, I certainly wouldn't part with it.

You are correct, those WRA XTR featherweights 80-81 are very well made with pretty damn good wood on them.

And I forgot to mention, (if by one piece you mean bolt body and handle made out of one piece), the new M70 have one piece bolts, too. I think post-64 push feeds use a handle that was bronze-brazed on like the Remington 700 that influenced it, as well as perhaps the classics and FN SC made guns. But the M70s coming out of Portugal use one piece bolts and handles.

That’s good news. One less thing to worry about.

I don't think it was anything to worry about when they were bronze-brazed. Bronze-brazing is very nearly as strong as the surrounding steel. I've literally never seen a brazed on handle break off. Notwithstanding the comments about Remington 700s on sniper forums like, "I seen five break off today" (yes, that was an actual post), the structural integrity is very, very strong. BTW, Remington 700 bolt heads are brazed on, too, and no one ever complains about those. I suspect that failures of Remington bolt handles arose mainly from do-it-yourselfers trying to tacticalize their guns by cutting off the stock bolt handles and slop-welding on a new tacticool version without using a heat sink installed and heat absorbing paste which might have caused a compromise in the brazing.

mr. 10 glocks: that is interesting. in the picture you posted, it appears that the un-machined portion just ahead of the bolt sleeve shows that the bolt was cast and there's nothing wrong with that. However, if they are actually a one piece bolt, I am surprised that Winchester isn't telling folks that just as Ruger does in their M77. In Otteson's book "The Bolt Action" he describes in detail the process Winchester developed to attach the handle to the bolt. I have never heard any other source mention that at some point they started using a true one piece bolt. I just looked on their webpage for 2021 models where they go into some detail describing the M70 and there's no mention of it.

I can't speak why it isn't being advertised, but it has all the earmarks of a one-piece design. I don't see any indication that the handle is brazed on. The casting line from the handle to the bolt body meets perfectly on all four or my Portuguese M70s, and there is no indication of any brazing material overflow at all on any of them. Even some of the tiny casting dimples cross the the "joints" indicating the bolt and handle were cast as one piece.

Brazing material overflow, to some degree, is almost inevitable and leaves tell-tale "gold" lines at the joints between the brazed together part. That overflow won't accept bluing. Here's a view examples from some of my 700 with brazed handles.





I understand that the Connecticut M70 classics reintroduced in 1992, and the M70s produced at the FN plant in SC, had brazed bolt handles. But it appears to have been dispensed with with production at Brownings Viana, Portugal plant, which, in olden days, produced Mausers.

IIRC, it was a spline connection, and sometimes the spline would let go, allowing the handle to slip. The spot-weld was to prevent that. Could have been more than one method used too.

I think I’ll call just to satisfy my curiosity.

Okay, according to the tech I spoke with, current models are one-piece, “just like the pre-64s”.

The website states the action is forged, another good thing.

I think we can (or I can anyway) stop mourning the Montana Rifle Co.

I believe they had a silver washer put in and the part heated so the washer would melt into the joint. I had one that had to go back to browning to fix that issue. It was NIB, when it was purchased and Browning fixed at NC.

Pappy, I had read they are currently drop forged. Whether or not that's correct, I don't know.

10Glocks,

If I rqemember correctly, BACO "Portuguese" rifles m70 rifles. are ASSEMBLED in Portugal. The metal work (barrel, action) is MADE at the FN plant in South Carolina-USA.

I just don't know if the BACO-era m70 bolt design changed (if changed at all) when assembly was moved from South Carolina to Portugal. The bolt is not MADE in Portugal, but at the FN/BACO-SouthCarolina.

A true "one-piece bolt" has the bolt handle , body, and lugs made from one contiguous piece of material.
Based on a picture above, the bolt handle has a 'pock-marked" surface, while the holt body is "smooth.". To me, this indicate two parts-made separately ( and perhaps by different processes, certainly to different finish quality standards). I am not sure if that picture was showing a "post-2007/BACO m70" bolt, or a "post-64, pre-BACO/pre-2007" bolt. The write up was not 100% clear on the era of the pictured "pock marked bolt handled" bolt.

Personally, I need more proof or evidence that the BACO-era Win m70 bolt body and handle are made from a single, contiguous piece of steel, whether a BACO-South Carolina made/finished bolt ( ~2007-2012 mfg), or BACO-South Carolina made/Potugal assembled bolt (~2013-present).

FWIW, the Howa 1500 bolt handle and body are machined from one contiguous piece of steel.

It's is very clearly a one piece bolt. Pappy contacted Winchester and confirmed it and I have no reason to disbelieve him.

Edit: and I just called them as well and confirmed that the Portuguese guns have a one piece bolt.

If Ruger and some of the other makers can do it, it shouldn't be that surprising.

Have the BACO-era ( FN mfg , ~2007- present) M 70 bolts ALWAYS been one-piece? If not, when did the switch happen?

I don't know when it changed. I understand the post-64s were two piece, as well as ther 1992 classics. It went back to a one piece sometime when the traditional M70s were made, either in SC or Portugal.

Here's photos of some of the boltsa from my other Portuguese M70s.







Clearly, the handles and bolt bodies are one piece.

The pictures clearly show a brazed on bolt handle. Notice that the bolt handle/collar are cast slightly rough and the bolt body is smooth.
I don't care what customer service says.
FWIW the Winchester method of brazing is much superior to Remington's. The bolt collar is knurled and pressed onto the body with a copper washer. The whole works is then heated in an induction furnace to join the pieces together. They have failed, but very rarely

The Portugal guns actions are still made by FN in South Carolina. They are assembled on Portugal on Portugese made stocks.
IMO they are easily much better than the Model 70 classics. Even the 5 digit guns.
The old style trigger has always sucked and I have had several that were worked over.

You could be right, and I could be wrong. But the bolt handle is clearly one piece with the portion of the bolt its attached to; they weren't two separate pieces brazed together, like the Remington 700. They are cast together. Now, it could be that there are two bolt sections brazed together, one piece with the handle on it. If that's the case, and I admit it could be, Winchester is doing a phenomenal job. I looked at all 4 bolts under a 90X jewelers glass and there is not the slightest hint of a gap/joint between pieces, or the 'overflow' of brazing material, which is visible on brazed joints on Remington 700s. They are perfectly mated together. As you know, the Remington 700 bolt is a three piece bolt. The head is brazed on, too. On all of my 700s, while there are no gaps between pieces, joints are evident. There is brazing material visible at the joints of the parts brazed together.

So, if I added to any misunderstanding, I apologize. I wanted to point out that the handle and the bolt are one piece (unlike the 700) but concede what I meant may not be what someone else meant by one piece. I think it's clear to anyone, though, that the design is very superior to the 700 design, and any fears that the bolt handle is somehow a weak link in the design is unfounded.

Based on that picture, to me it appears to be a two-piece bolt/bolt body. The bolt handle (and the small bolt bodied cylindrical piece), has a pock-marked surface, while the bolt body itself is "smooth". They were finished to two different endpoints, likely as there were two separate pieces made/finished in two separate processes and quality control standards, then joined together. That is my interpretation of the picture. It does not look like the bolt handle and bolt body were made from one contiguous piece of steel, and then surface-finished to the same quality control standard.

That could be. There appear to be faint lathe marks on the bolt body up to the point of the handle. I guess there could be a way to spin a one piece bolt with handle on a lathe, but it seems to me there would need to be a counter weight to the handle. I'm not a machinist.

More photos posted here:

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/16316711#Post16316711

The bolts are two piece and have been since 1964. They are attached better than a 700, but never the less are two piece. Forum member Greydog was a Winchester warranty gunsmith in Canada that repaired quit a few that have failed.

Okay, so I agree it's a two piece design,. My mistake was assuming that the original concern was that the handle was tacked on like the Remington 700. It obviously isn't. The handle is one piece with a collar that slips onto the bolt body, and the collar is brazed on. (IMO superior to the Remington 700. The contact area of the brazed collar is significantly greater than the contact area where the 700 handle meets the bolt.)

I also said there is no evidence of brazing material and I think I am wrong there, too. My mistake there was believing the brazing material would be like that seen on the Remington 700 - a metallic bronze color. But the Winchester apparently uses copper. And I believe there is evidence of that in that area. One of my bolts has some turquoise coloring in that area that might be some left over copper, maybe some overflow, or from copper infused flux, that looks like it was perhaps polished then blued resulting in the bluing salts oxidizing the copper into its tell-tale turquoise color. That turquoise showed up on one of the earlier pictures I posted.



I do wonder about the "quite a few" assertion. Unlike the Remington 700, I yet to come across any proven account of an M70 bolt failing. Even failure of the 700 bolts are few and far between, usually involving abusive practices, or home-gunsmithing that resulted in a weakened joint.

Why don't you PM Greydog. He's seen more than a few.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/15143538/m70-bolt-failure

Perhaps you should consider rephrasing that statement.

Kudos to R Grouse with respect to the pre-64 Model 70s. For hunting in really demanding conditions
like Alaska, iron sights are a practical if not a sine qua non feature. My standard and former wildcat
M-70s are for larger big game. Weather and tough terrain have not disturbed their utility. Even Griffin & Howe side mounts
with Leupold or Lyman Alaskan scopes work with fascinating reliability in inhospitable country.

If the pre-64 M-70 was that dated an action or rifle, why do custom rifle makers seek that action and the Mauser
over most newer existing designs? Like the Filson coat label states : "Might as well have the best".

More than a few? 3 or 4 from Remington and Winchester in 13 years. That's pretty much the definition of "a few."

How does one tell a used South Carolina gun from a Portugal gun, assuming no box, no hang tag, just seeing one on the rack?

Barrel markings.
Portugal gun will say Made in Portugal.
Other than that and serial number, hard to tell unless it’s a muzzle brake model.

Thanks!