Looking for the value of a 1946 model 70 standard weight chambered in 270WCF. When I took apart the rifle to clean, the bottom of the barrel is stamped 270 41 so I’m guessing the barrel was produced in 1941. Rifle has handling marks and the floor plate finish has some wear. The are to holes drill and tapped on top of barrel (not sure if that’s factory or not) and it have scope base and rings.

Pictures are in the link below

Thanks

https://postimg.cc/gallery/G8vpk8n

Tough one...

If you want a "collector", pass it by and wait for another that's "original". The extra holes in the barrel and the wood alterations on the stock for the ?target scope mounts are going to hurt you.

If you want a good everyday hunter/shooter then go for it! You can always look at the "value" of the component parts. Unaltered "transition" std action/floorplate is probably worth ~$700-800 alone. The barrel marked 1941 is probably not original to the gun but I could be wrong(maybe in a rarer caliber than 270WCF) but it has certainly been altered for a target scope mount/block. The rear sight should be a 22G as well. The slightly altered stock will be cloverleaf tang for sure and desirable for pre-war or transition variation 70s but the wood removed near the receiver still hurts value for most buyers unless that is what they are trying to replace.

I'd shoot for $750-850, consider it a "good" buy and shoot/hunt the heck out of it... still a beautiful M70! Love "transitions"!

It looks like otherwise it is pretty nice condition. If it was all "original" w/o extra holes and wood taken away from the stock AND w/ 22G sight and front "hood", the price would likely be twice the "altered" price.

What he said, I think.. I couldn't see the fn pictures very well. You nailed it though with "tough one"..

$750 tops. It is a good, Vintage, hunting rifle. The barrel is most likely original; remember Pearl Harbor? 1941 was a huge year for the model 70, not many made between 1942-1945. The holes in the barrel, the notch out on the stock are definitely not factory and are killers! The wrong rear sight. A nice, vintage hunting rifle. The pictures were a pain to view, try imgur.

Thanks for the info lundtroller!

That’s a 1942 pre-war gun with a later (Type 111) 1950’s bolt shroud/safety. The bridge is also non-factory D&T. I’d pass

61480 is what the serial looks like to me. I can't tell if it has a prewar rear tang or later smooth; it is a Transition. Better pics are needed. It isn't a collector's item but it is a very good hunting rifle.

Yes it’s 51480. It would be a great hunting rifle

Pocono nailed it. I can't see the pics, but know the serial # indicates it was made in 1942. That would make it a "pre war", not a transition. If the barrel is marked "41", it is most likely the original barrel. Anything that is drilled and tapped reduces the value of the rifle. The barrel and rear bridge for example. Any wood that is removed for aperture sights, or any other modification reduces the value. However, the clover leaf tang stocks are getting harder and harder to find. Which makes it more valuable than a post war stock. Especially if it does not have any cracks. Definitely a "hunter" grade though. Value can be anywhere from $650-$1,200.00, for a rifle like this. That's just based off of what I've seen, but pics would show better detail and add to the description, and help with value..

Didn't realize I could zoom in a little better on the SN and safety. Saw "1946" and just assumed it was a traditional "tradition", if there is such a thing.

People "cobbled" together some interesting things back in the day for sure! The target scope mounted must have rendered the original safety pretty useless. Now if a guy only had the original scope and mounts it would still be kind of cool "as is".

Hindsight is kind of painful for pre-64 70 lovers! On the same note, pretty sad to not have enjoyable "shooters" out there, too...

I can't speak knowledgably of "value". I can speak to "collectability" and originality. None of the three major components, receiver, stock or barrel are original. The barrel date, perhaps to conjecture DOM, but losing significance as "altered". The difficulty with a drilled & tapped gun is with mount holes which reflect obsolete mounts proper. Also the '46 receiver should have the clip loading function. See pix below, . 1946 my 1946. The rifle is yet a quality hunter/shooter because of its Pre '64 genre. Collectible, not. More insights requiring better pix! That said, much of all to be said as already said!
Just my take.
Best!
John

How do you guys say 1942? It is a 1946. It is a Transition model. Look at the serial number with a magnifying glass. The pics are not good enough for my computer or eyes to make out serious details.

ETA: I am wrong it is not a Transition model; it is a very late preWar with a few mods.

For pocano; better resolution

Thanks Joe

Your source is wrong. 1942 serials go 41754 thru 49206, a total of 7,453.

That is a 1946 serial number. That gun has a preWar Bolt body, which should be factory correct. The Safety and Bolt Shroud are definitely later than the gun. It should have come originally with a PreWar wing Safety as factory original. I wish we had clear pics or could see under that rear scope base to see which receiver it has. The number says preWar but the pics don't look like it??? It may be an anomoly? I can't see the groove or the stripper clip guide slot. The Transitions start about 1000 digits later at 60500 approx.

ETA: That looks like a Leupold gunsmiths rear base; it only has one hole drilled. A lot of gunsmiths back then were truly craftsman. I am betting they machined that rear scope base to a very close fit in the receiver making the groove and clip guide all but disappear.

I don't know where you are getting your info from? The 1942 serial #'s range from 45,405 to 52,548. Placing that rifle well within the 1942 serial # range, at 51,480. Unless Rule is wrong, as well as the WACA look up AK is using. This is part of the reason we always ask for the serial #, when assessing a rifle. A lot of Winchester owners don't even know when their rifles are made.

https://www.winchesterguns.com/support/faq/date-your-firearm.html

I will take clearer pictures in the morning. Thank you for all the info thus far

The source of the above ‘When Was Your Winchester Made’ screenshot is derived from the original Winchester Factory Polishing Room Records that are housed in Cody WY, which were donated by the Olin Corporation in 1980-81 at the time of the Olin buyout. If they are incorrect then Winchester’s own corporate records are wrong. If more accurate information exists the source should be posted here so we could all learn.

It is TRUE that the PRR date relates to the date the s/n was applied to the receiver, not the date the receiver was used to assemble a finished rifle. Odds are that many (if not most) of the 1942 PRR dated receivers were not used to complete rifles until 1945-46 when Winchester was converting back to manufacturing products for the civilian market at the end of WW11. However, assembly of a pre-war pattern rifle immediately after the end of WW11 does not make it a ‘transition’ rifle. The accepted distinction between pre-war and transition rifles is the change in receiver design (undrilled, roll marked clip slot bridge) and squared shoulder on the bolt handle for the pre-war rifle vs. the factory d&t smooth bridge and shoulder-less bolt for the transition rifle.

Rule’s Table 2-1 (PR date table) indicates S/N 51480 was applied in Sept. 1942. Rules Table 2-2 indicates that the rifle with S/N 51480 would have been built in 1946. Is this a problem? not really as the dates in Table 2-1 are derived from existing records while the production numbers in Table 2-2 are derived from a few surviving summary reports provided to Winchester executives of total numbers of M70’s, NOT actual, individual s/n’s. Unfortunately receivers were not used in consecutive order and the individual S/N cards were destroyed, so S/N 51480 might have been assembled in 1942/45/46. No way to know.

The earliest recorded ‘transition’ receivers (as defined above) were a small batch of possibly a couple hundred in the 55,XXX S/N range (this information comes from the current, ongoing WACA M70 survey, not the Bible so the reader must decide its veracity), Winchester then completed another 5,000 pre-war guns with the transition guns beginning to dominate around S/N 60,500 (as the Bible indicates).

Hope this helps

A good tell tale sign that the rifle was probably made in '42, as Rule states on page 50, I believe, is the barrel that is stamped "41".

https://postimg.cc/gallery/NL9fC9v

Link for more pics

Pics

Iskra it has the loading clip function but it is covered by the scope base.

Thanks for posting the link with the better pics. I could zoom in a little better. It looks like an $850-$900.00 rifle to me. Again, it's a pre war rifle made in 1942. The bluing looks to be original, as does the stock finish. The safety lever is a Buehler style, which was a very common "upgrade", on these pre war rifles, where they intended to use a scope. The rear bridge was not drilled and tapped as someone suggested with only one hole. It appears they used the common and more modern .860" hole spacing for the rear scope mount. Thus, making it impossible to use a one piece mount, like someone had suggested. The hole locations are unlike any other model 70 era. Which also includes the post war H&H rear scope mounts. I'd be willing to bet that is the case anyway, just by looking at the pics. My only concern is how everything lines up, and if it's in perfect alignment with the bore axis. I'd throw a set of dual dovetail mounts and rings on there, and check ring alignment. If you are stuck with the rear windage type mount only, that is a huge downfall. I know, there are guys that have used them for years, but I don't like them. They are weak by design. It also doesn't have the original rear sight. The original rear sight would add another $120.00 to the value of the rifle. They likely did this because it was set up to run a modern scope. I already mentioned the wood removed for an aperture sight, but what they removed is very odd looking. That is my best assessment of the rifle. It should make a fine hunter, if the bore is in good shape.

All you have to do is use the “share” icon on your account and copy them and put them in here…

Well we will have to agree to disagree. I spoke with one of the top three model 70 collectors in the country (probably more accurately world) and he says it is a preWar gun built in 1946. No wiggle room. He said Polishing Room records only apply as to when the receiver was serialized, nothing more. The accepted dates of manufacture are what is in that chart. He said the 1941 barrel is most likely original but that doesnt mean much because of the big disruption of WW2. He says 1946 period. He was a major contributor to Rules book.

The key word in this is Accepted. I know that I used to have, probably 40 years ago, a small card stock pamphlet from Winchester that had many models serialization in it, 70s, 42s, 12s, etc. Those dates jived with the chart in the Riflemans Rifle. I would like to see an earlier 338 with a 1956 receiver run through the Polishing Room records.

What is the disagreement? Your expert didn’t call it a transition; and PJ didn’t say it was assembled in 1942.

I’m out

I called it a Transition when the serial appeared 61480 to my eyes computer. Once a clear picture of the serial number was presented as 51480, I went back and edited my post admitting my error. I did not change what I had originally posted, I added an ETA to it.

I knew a fellow who worked for Remington and Savage up in NYS. He was a custom gunsmith on the side and after he retired. He specialized in Newton Calibers and built them on pre64 Winchesters. You would not believe the number of 1941 dated model 70 takeoff barrels he had. I never saw a 1942, or 1943 barrel, however I saw a couple of 1944 dated barrels in his stash. My friend bought all of those Win 70 barrels from his estate. He made a fortune on them. He still has a couple, mostly with issues left.

Now, that is a ton better!!!!!

Gentlemen-

There's no need to "agree to disagree" b/c everyone here is saying the same thing...

FWIW... The production figures in Table 2-2 of Roger's book, was well as those on the Winchesterguns.com (FN/Browning) website, are from research done by George Madis using surviving WRACo documents in the Cody Firearms Museum. These source documents are available as digital copies via the McCracken Library at CFM (in the MS20 collection, if anyone wants to look them up).

The challenge Madis faced in his research is that there are no records of M70 production by serial number, nor are there internally consistent records of the actual number of rifles MANUFACTURED by year in the pre-war period. Madis compiled most of his figures from “Net Orders Received” reports (NOT guns manufactured) from the pre-war years and Shipping Department records from the 1950s onward (guns SHIPPED, not guns MADE). So his numbers for different years are pulled from documents reporting on different aspects of the gun business. They are not “Serial Numbers Assigned” as the title of the Madis/Rule table suggests. The serial numbers were "assigned" in the polishing room when the receiver was prepared for bluing, and receivers were not necessarily used in sequence to assemble rifles. Sbrmike's example of early Alaskans is a good one. Short Magnum receivers originally made to build Africans in 1956-57 languished until finally being used to build Alaskans in 1959. That doesn't mean that the PR dates are "wrong", just that PR date and date of rifle manufacture are different things.

It's interesting to note that while Madis chose to use "Net Orders Received" for his pre-war production figures, there is another document, an internal memo to Mr. Olin dated January 15, 1944, in which figures are given (by Model) for gun PRODUCTION over the prior five years (1939-1943). Presumably these figures reflect actual firearms manufactured, not "orders received" or "shipped". For G70C (all styles/calibers, there's no breakdown) the numbers are: 1939 (4372), 1940 (5,507), 1941 (9878), 1942 (8,278), and 1943 (324). Compare these to the Madis/Rule 2-2 figures based on "Orders Received" which are: 1939 (6,147), 1940 (7,684), 1941 (10,078), 1942 (7,453), and 1943 (777). One would hope that factory employees generating a report for Mr. Olin would have at least tried to get the numbers right...

This is NOT to say that anyone is "wrong", just that reliable figures don't appear to exist and "estimates" (like those of Madis) based on "Orders Received", "Rifles Shipped", or summative reports to CEOs, are not consistent with one another. Should also be noted that Madis’ research was conducted BEFORE the Polishing Room ledgers were discovered. His estimates were the best that could be done without actual production records, but for many Winchester Models, including the M70, they are inaccurate (often by a considerable margin). Consider that Rule's Table 2-1, which is derived from PR records, contradicts his own Table 2-2, which is derived from Madis.

Once there was agreement in this thread that the S/N of the subject rifle is 51480 (1942 PR date) there's no controversy... The receiver was made in September 1942. The rifle was manufactured sometime later. Madis' figures, based on "Net Order's Received" indicate that the 51,480th M70 was made in 1946. Whether the 51,480th M70 manufactured bore S/N 51480 is unknown, and to my knowledge, unknowable...

Best...
Lou

P.S. Sbtmike- If you'd care to name your "top three" expert, I'd like to know... I bet I know him/her...

I never asked him permission to post his name. You very well should know him. There was no wiggle in his answer. I put all of these arguments to him. The real issue to me is value if this was a pristine collectible example. See what a bonafide 1942 model 70 brings and compare that with a 1946. WW2 guns bring a premium.

I do not see where we are all saying the same thing. We all say the polishing room shows it serialed in 1942. I agree with the accepted by the industry and Winchester serialization chart. It may have issues but it is the accepted standard.

ETA: I wish I had ended this at no asking permission. The rest of this post should be disregarded. It is not fact based, it is a combination of emotions, opinions, bad memory exception. I am confusing Harley WW2 values with M70. I also shouldnt have said top 3 model 70 collectors. I have no way of knowing that, possibly nobody knows. He is high on the list for sure.

For further discussion:

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...odel-70-30-gov-t-06.cfm?gun_id=102640484

I always like to check proof mark alignment. Generally they are pretty spot on. On that rifle, they appear to be out of alignment. Thus, there is reason to believe that barrel has been changed out. A great example of a fairly original looking specimen though.