I have an unfired pre 64 African. as many know because there were only about 1200 made these guns have really climbed in value. I have an unopened box of .458 ammo. The questions would you shoot it, or not?

Sure why not? Just a club if you don't shoot it - and not a very good one at that.

Well,that gun is worth about $9000-$9500..just sayin'
Damn nice and rare! I would be more worried about the ammo? how old is it? If it's vintage to the gun,it could be caked up by now and some high pressure could follow....?

And there lies my dilemma.

What do you mean by shootit? Punch paper at the range or take it hunting...there are a lot of M70 collectors that will pay $$ for it now
If you need something to punch paper,buy cheap... I would not dare let the airlines touch it...
I did not help much..but I say no, leave it alone.

I always said I would not be one of those collectors who wouldn't shoot there guns. However, I also never thought that some of these Winchesters would appreciate in value so much. I have taken this to the range a couple times, but can't pull the trigger.

I can put you in touch with a buyer...

Let one out of the barrel. Life is short and you aint taking it with you when you go.

It's just me but I would not shoot it. Even a little shooting could end up costing you a lot of money. Heaven forbid that the stock cracks because where are you ever going to find another stock for it? My advice is that if you want a 458 to shoot spend $1000 and buy a new one. For the price you could get for that gun you could buy a really cool SXS big bore!

sell it and go to Africa with another rifle.......

I say no shoot....if and when you decide to part with it the fact that it is unfired will command a few thousand $'s more. Would think that being able to look at pre-64 African and bring it to the shoulder when one feels like it is pretty satisfying. By the way....it's a beauty.

Probably this. It's just too valuable to make a shooter out of it.

For me, it's a real no-brainer. I would leave it unfired. Nope, no question for me.

Shoot the thing or sell it. You will die off one day and someone else will shoot it for you.

I would keep it as is. You're sittin' on a lot of money.

Not to me. A gun with no history, no experience, no stories, is just a factory gun of little special interest. It would be shot or sold. Probably sold as I have little appreciation for factory bolt rifles. But if it's worth that to you to hunt with, then hunt it. If not, sell it.

In the end, it is a question that only you can answer.

If it were mine, the answer would be easy.

really?...a gun worth 9K...then, bang! .....now worth 6K or less.....that's a good bit to pay for experience, history, or stories...

If there was 1200 made , how many are unfired. I usually shoot everything but in this instance No Way. That is big time prime gun. It is remarkable that you have such a fine and desirable Winchester in the condition you have. I crave the African model 70. I was at the Cody museum last year and they have one not as nice as yours. Only if you never plan on selling it I still would be reluctant to fire it. It's just to nice. I could go on and on, but you get the idea. By the way, what would you sell such a gun for. I love it.
Mouse

These two have been waiting to meet for over 50 years.

Cartod
If those cartridges are 50years old, I'd be willing to bet that powder is like cement. I've broke down some old ammo and I had to use a screwdriver to get out the old powder. Still don't shoot it. Oh yeah, do you also have the box. I'm sure you know all there is to know about this rifle that needs to be known. Thanks for the Winchester HIGH. Just too good.
Mouse

Beautiful rifle! This is the way I'd go.

But it's also very obvious that you want to shoot it. Sometimes you just have to say WTF, and just go for it. You only live once. But if you shoot it I'd not try to sell it afterwards. I'd shoot the hell out of it and build a lifetime of memories!

Eric

Hey Mouse, no box and besides someone's word, no real proof that it's never been fired.....besides the fact that it appears that way.

Cartod
In that case, if you do want to fire it let me know I will help you christen this beauty with a few known great loads and a dedicated toast to it's life. It would be an occasion. I'm an Ohio boy and would be glad to help you out.
Mouse

Cool, I will seriously consider it.

No box? I thought it was NIB.

Let one fly!

But you are not the consumer for a rifle like this. Winchestor M70 collectors would be all over this rifle. Without a box it's hard to say that it's unfired because even a fired rifle can be cleaned up to look unfired but regardless if it's in 99%+ condition it's worth quite a bit.

Nope. Leave it alone.

But I would sell it because I expect demographic shifts will gradually soften the collector market. (More collections coming on the market than new collectors getting started.)

Interesting. What kind of time frame would you assume this softening will begin?

Because of the value I would not shoot it. That would be very hard for me to do since I am hunter/shooter before collector. I would be one that would sell it and head to Africa.

Interesting....also, the guys who create a lot of the demand for pre 64's are not getting any younger.Many of the younger generation doesn't even know what they are.....nor do they care.Heck, most of them think a Classic is a real M70....

Cartod I understand the conundrum....

But by not shooting it,you are not gonna get any more days on earth;be afforded extra brownie points,nor be granted more hunting time.Using a rifle you really like is one of life's simple pleasures.

Posterity will not thank you for leaving behind a mint specimen.....when you are gone,the world will try to graft it from your heirs at the lowest possible price.If they decide to keep it, they will not mind that you enjoyed it while you were here.

So, shoot it,hunt it, or trip it now. Life is too short for dust-gathering safe queens.

I'm with Bob.

Personally, I'd sell it to one of the pre-'64 collectors who'd pay enough to go on a safari, as several others have suggested. But then I've paid for several hunts (including Africa) by selling rifles.

Cartod: Unfortunately I sold my pre-64 458 African BEFORE we knew how rare they were - AND now how valuable they are!
I absolutely would NOT shoot that African - unless money means nothing to you.
If you want to enjoy the thrill of shooting a 458 Winchester Magnum then go buy or borrow a CZ or a Ruger and blaze a way.
That Rifle is simply to valuable and rare to diminsh it by shooting it - just to be shooting it!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Well, I figure it depends on personal taste and situation.Some guys will pay $10-$25k for a custom,wood stocked first class "stopper",like an Echols, or Prechtl Mauser,take it to Africa, and bang away.If this makes a guy grow faint, then he should sell it, use the proceeds for a hunt and buy another rifle.

Like JB points out the money may be better spent on the hunt.I know there are guys who pile up pre 64's like coin collectors,and that's fine, too.I could never get into it and would rather hunt it or sell it,myself.

Not hunting or shooting a rifle like that is like dating a Brazilian Super Model, just to look at her..or drag her out for show when friends pop over....not really the best and highest use.

I'm not so sure about the value of them going down anytime soon. Look at the price of a 1866 or 1873 and all the people who used them originally are dead by now.

There are new collectors coming into the market every day. There are also collectors leaving the market every day. I just wonder if there is enough jobs and money for new collectors to keep the old guns valuable.

The number of available truly collectible pre-'64's will continue to decrease, due to attrition. Their value will never become less but will continue to increase.

I would zero that fine rifle with a 1.5-5 Leupold in a set of Talley QD's, zero the irons at 50 yds, and book a Cape Buffalo and plains game hunt in Africa.

You would be doing Maw Winchester proud.

I own no safe queens.

Gunner

i wouldn't own a gun i couldn't shoot so i'd sell it and buy 8 or 10 shooters. nice gun btw

Oh, i can shoot it.

Many of us already own so many guns that we can't shoot them all so I might as well have some pretty ones that I don't shoot.

Posts: 4760
Nope. Leave it alone.

But I would sell it because I expect demographic shifts will gradually soften the collector market. (More collections coming on the market than new collectors getting started.)

I too think this may be the gist of it. How the hell can any ordinary guy get into this stuff?
Why would mr. ordinary want to? Is this stuff going to keep going up?
I did hear a gold bug say one day.."I can't tell you if gold is going up or down tomorrow, but I can tell you in ten years it will be less than it is today"

Interesting that some guys will run a $35-$40,000 truck up a mountain switchback, or run it through snow and bog holes for two weeks during hunting season, but grow faint at the notion of hunting a couple weeks with a $9k rifle.

African pro's used to sink an entire years salary into a life-saver double,and use it for decades.

Curious...

Bob, good point. But an African PH should easily be able to rationalize spending the price of a really good rifle which he will use over and over, virtually every working day of his life, and on which his very life and livelihood depends. Someone who may hunt w/ it only those years when the right tag comes up will have to do more than rationalize.

The other thing is that, in this case, taking a MINT, unfired collector's piece on a 2-week hunt could easily reduce its value by $1,000's. Where, w/ just a little care, your $40,000 used truck will still be worth $40,000, when you get home.

Good God yes Bob, it would be a sheer pleasure and honor to hunt that great rifle, its a made killer.....and I would be pleased to let it do so

Gunner

This thread has got me thinkin' again ....I think I'm gonna set out to find a rifle just like the one being discussed here and buy it.

Got around 33 700 weight steers ready for market in October

Gunner

You want to venture into model 70's knowing wtf you are doing.

Yessir...I have pre-64 Supergrades in 22 Hornet and 300 H&H, and standard rifles in 270 and 30-06.
I know what to look for on suspect rifles.

Gunner

It would be difficult to fake a 458. Especially with the serial no. Range, rear sight and special stock.

Thats right, the M-70 Africans and Alaskans are about a breed unto there own

And no disrespect intended towards your rifle Cartod, I couldnt help but hunt that beautiful basher.

Gunner

I hear ya. I'm not a wealthy person though. As much as I want to take it out and kill mice with it, my other judgement says keep it pristine and fund my retirement.

I'm kind of caught between a crap and a sweat.

I understand, and I'm not wealthy either, just and old overworked/overtaxed work mule that love's cool rifle's.

Gunner

And no chit BSA, thats beyond sweetness.

Gunner

I love using the pre64's but that's too nice. I'd have a hard time dragging it out when I knew I could have a similar one in something like a ruger m77 instead....Or even one of the newer less desireable/collectable ones....:

http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/catalog/detail.asp?family=001C&mid=535116

I know, why have it if you arn't going to use it but man, I'd have a hard time...

Your a better man than me

Gunner

There is no bigger fan of pre 64 M70's than me....but I have to admit that the pricing lately is getting a bit insane.I was never one to be drawn into the collector side of the M70 arena....I alwasy looked at them as something I wanted to hunt with,so my opinion on this may be prejudiced...

Heck Bob, a fine rifle is like a fine Woman, you wanna pick em and hold em, give em a good lookin' over

Gunner

Gunner I agree.....but at $9k hopefully I'm gonna do more with the woman than just look at her...

Well yes Bob, after the thorough inspection, then ya work the hades outta them

Gunner

I like fine women and nice rifles too, but that doesn't mean I'm going to take them out behind the wood shed and abuse the hell out of em.. Trust me, they would get used but maybe pampered a little more than some of the others....Just sayin....

I've had a lot of thoughts similar to Lauren as far as how the demographics will likely change in the not-too-distant future. A lot of guys who collect vintage guns come from a very different demographic. It used to be more people lived rural vs. in the cities. In the last 50 years that has flipped. While so many of us grew up hunting, fishing, shooting and so on; it's much more common for young people to have no connection to the outdoors. I also know some gun dealers complain that all the younger people are interested in is, "black guns." I've had these thoughts for years yet the best antique and vintage guns keep going up in price. Look at the prices Wes Adams guns fetched recently at the Julia auction. I predict one thing - most of those guys who were buying and bidding on Wes Adams guns won't be buying and bidding 20 years from now. And Lauren is right, some of this stuff is priced so high that it is very difficult for new collectors to break in.

When we start hearing things like, "Guns will never go down in value" that may be time to "pull the trigger".

I sat at home and looked through the Madis book when I was a kid.
It would be pretty tough to get a kid to look at that stuff today.

The whole video game/electronics/Dungeons and Dragons/Magic Cards and on and on has pulled a lot of young people away. I know plenty of young people (in their mid-20's) who are still into this stuff - heavy. Many are well employed - work hard at full time jobs - but evenings and weekends are not spent hunting or fishing or paging through the Madis book. It's funny how a lot of us are looking at partially funding our retirement with our guns. Well, if we all sell at about the same time - who is going to buy

Looks fade over time but if she can't cook and clean at least a little, well she would be gone. Especially if someone else is eager to pay more than she's worth.

To carry on the theme of the thread. There was a time I could have bought Rudy Etchens 28Ga Parker, which was an absolutely beautiful shotgun that would have been a queen of the Grouse woods. One season-and maybe one day-and it would have been worth considerably less. She just wasn't worth the price to just sit around and do nothing but look good.

Personally I would not shoot it, unless of course you were booked on a hunt for buffalo or elephant. If you were, then the 9K the gun is worth is just not a factor. If you are not going to shoot it and don't need the money then keep it as is.

I have often quoted Lauren's brother Jed: "You only need one shooter." I realize some of us hunt a variety of game and several shooters might make sense, but if you are going to own a lot of guns, why do they all need to be shooters? I have plenty of vintage/antique lever rifles and I shoot some of them. I tend to not shoot the high condition ones. I could and as they are not unfired, a trip to the range would be undectable (unless something really bad happened). Still, I don't take the nicest ones to the range, because I have plenty of other guns to bring It is not important to me that I have shot every gun in my collection.

guns like this would torment me too much

Ok..any decesions yet? OK,go shoot it,I got $5000 waiting...
That takes the pressure off....

This is what I would do.

It does the soul good to have a couple of special rifles....whether or not one chooses to shoot them is a different matter.

+1

You guys are much better men than me, i would be proud to honor those great craftsmen from long ago who built that fine rifle, and bust a Buffalo with it

Gunner

I don't know about bustin a buffalo but I think I'd bust a nut if I had it....Just sayin.

If you don't shoot it how would you know if it works?

If it's a pre 64 I'm willing to bet you it's going to work.... .....and like a slick willie in a oh never mind....

How do you know it is unfired?
Would a buyer be convinced.

If it really is unfired I would keep it that way.

Better yet, sell it and buy one that will not go down in value from shooting it.

I would take the trigger guard off and look at the little piece of wood between the magazine and the trigger cut out. If it's cracked it's a good bet that it's been shot. I've never taken a P64 in 458 apart but I've taken quite a few P64 375's and have yet to see one that hasn't been cracked there. Note that none of the 375's that I've examined were ever in question for being unfired. The crack doesn't hurt anything but there just wasn't enough wood there to take the recoil of the bigger calibers.

I'd trip it for as much as you can and go on a brown bear hunt.

Shoot.

As I have already said, all I am going on is the original owners word and it's appearance. There is no ring on the bolt face (photo on page 2) and the loading ramp is not scratched up.

If I shoot it, which I am leaning that way, how can it take the value down that much if any, really?

You dont have a nice 1.5-5 Leupold and a set of QD Talley's ordered yet?

Firing that rifle IMO will not effect the value if you decide to sell later.

Gunner

One other thing. SOme of you guys are saying that the 50 year old ammo might not be safe to shoot. Why is that? I've shot literally thousands of 30/06 ammo that was made in the late 40's and early 50's and other than a very few mis-fires I've never had any issue with them. That said however if you do choose to shoot it I would be hesitant to use that old ammo only because you might be surprised by the collectors value of the ammo itself and the box. Anyone who has a nice P64 in 458 would love to have an original box of ammo to display with it. I wouldn't be surprised at all if you could get $100-$200 for the box of ammo!

The very early 458 WM ammo was severely compressed, and I've read concerns the powder column may solidify.

Haven't experienced this first hand though.

Gunner

I did not know that. SO it's an issue with this particular ammo and not just old ammo in general?

Yessir, just this ammo AFAIK, older ammo kept in a nice controlled environment should be good to go.

Gunner

We shot a lot of WW-II Howitzer ammo, in VN. No problem w/ powder and fuses.

Dang right Pal, I've been to a few ripper shoots, and that old WWII and Korean war era ammunition will talk LOL

Gunner

Here's one for sale... but it's not unfired and it's not a pre-64

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=279798230

That's a very rare and valuable rifle you have there, Cartod. I surely wouldn't shoot it.

Go ahead and pop a cap on it..I've got $5000 waiting?
You get your shot,you get the money,I get the gun...?

I was reflecting on how many all original pre-64 .458's I've seen for sale in recent years. Darn few I would say. And how many unfired? One, and from what I can see, it's not offered for sale yet

This gunbroker dude's on some bad crack if he thinks this post pusher will bring that kind of green

Gunner

That's a nice gun for sure but I don't see $4195 or anything close to that for a post 64. I think when he looked it up in the Blue Book he was looking under the P64 section!

+1

Gunner

I know where three of those are...all about $1200-1300 bucks

Yeah, and I'd take a $900 tang safety Ruger 458 WM over one of those in a heartbeat.

Gunner

Recent posts on this Topic have opined about the collectors market and prices in the future for rarer pre-64 Model 70 rifles....if GunBroker auction #278251380 (completed) is any indication, the market continues to be very strong at this time.

Me too...but don't be telling it,the price will go up.

Holy cow! $16,000. That is nuts! Way too easy to fake that gun to be paying that kind of money!

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=278251380

something is wrong there...I have owned three and seen about 20-30 of them and none brought more than $5000.....

Good gawd, wonder what that idiot would want to pay for my little SG Hornet

Gunner

edit: spelling

Let us in on it brother. Don't be holding out.....

Not really an easy one to fake. Sure you can put a SG stock on a standard 7x57 carbine but first you have to find the 7x57 carbine and they are rarer then hen's teeth by a long shot! And I would bet that it being an SG only raised the value about $2000 which is about what a mint SG stock and metal are worth. IMHO it went for more than it's worth but two other people must have thought it was worth that or close to it. The rifle appears to be darn near mint shape, I have a 257 SG carbine that I consider to be in great shape but nowhere near what that one is.

I see a lot of people commenting on fake M70's and while they can and do exist I think some people are taking the parinoia a little to far. Winchester did make a lot of odd ball guns and they have to be somewhere.

Even the blue book states that in rare calibers there are more fakes than real one. I just sent back a 7x57 that had a fake barrel put on it. They could not reproduce the stippling on the front sight.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw...amp;_odkw=Winchester+super&_osacat=0

Heck you could buy three of these Winchesters.

Don't believe that this rifle is a carbine.

There were various patterns used prior to '64.

Yep there were, but stippling was pre war.

Here ya go...with S&B Glass no less...
http://www.gunsinternational.com/Winchester-70-Super-Grade-458-Win-Mag-caliber-.cfm?gun_id=100221037
It's a Griffin & Howe...pretty good deal!

and another...
http://www.gunsinternational.com/WI...FLE-458-WIN-MAG-98-.cfm?gun_id=100217450

Sell it and buy two or three rifles you will shoot.

I agree with this advice. Even though I well understand the pride and joy of ownership on a piece like this, it is also a burden to own something likely unfired and so pristine. Safe dings, a slip of the hands, etc. can transform it from 100% to something less. I own a variety of vintage lever rifles and the ones I shoot the least are the Savage M1899's - the fear of a tang crack makes me

And so goes the neurosis of the collector...

Do we have a decision yet? I am at $5500 now,no BS

No I havnt made a decision yet, but if I do decide to sell it $5500 is not going get it. Thanks for the offer.

Where does it need to be?

It needs to be in my safe until I decide to part with it. Sorry rifle, I'm just not ready to part with it at this time.

I know..It is a gem of a rifle!!

The way I see it there are only 2 smart options:

1. Don't shoot it and either keep it or sell it.
or
2. Hunt with it

Shooting just for the sake of shooting it and putting it back in the safe is not a well thought out proposition.

I think that question is one only you can answer.

Are you a collector and do you see this as an investment? If so, just keep it for the appreciation.

If you want to go shooting, get a shooter and don't shoot a collector.

If you can't afford to do both, sell the collector and pick up a shooter with a wad of money left in your pocket.

IMHO,

DF

Winner, winner, chicken dinner....or you could pay of debt if you got it...nah, go to Africa and hunt!

Shoot it if it will give you pleasure to do so.

There are things a person can do... that give them pleasure in the moment, that they later regret. Pleasure can be fleeting

And seriously, should one expect that shooting a pristine and unfired .458 is going to feel different from shooting another .458 that has been previously fired?

It's like buying a new car and taking a $10K hit by driving it off the lot, or buying a late model one, letting someone else that that initial hit.

Just gotta decide what your goals are and how your finances stack up.

You may have enough cash to burn a wet mule, and if that's what you like to do and it's your cash, who cares...

DF

If you bought it as an investment with the intent of selling it for a profit after it gained value then don't shoot it. If you accomplished that inadvertently and the old girl just sat in the safe long enough to be worth a lot of money, then shoot her! Thats a mighty fine rifle and she longs to take blood. Go to Alaska and kill brownie with her or to Africa and kill a Buf! Kill something! Pre 64's are killin' machines... IMO way too many fine works of steel and wood like this one hide in the dark in the safe for years yearning to be free, begging to have a few pills thrown out of their throats at a big game animal, to breathe and wander the savanna or tundra as their owners chosen tool of trade... ok, sorry I'll turn off the "born free music" now.

As an investment, I think guns, esp. one like this, pretty much suck. As a toy to have that won't devalue too much and may even increase in value a bit, guns are great. This one would be a safe toy to avoid devaluing a lot but if that's what you like do it.

If you just want an investment, buy a stock fund or a CD.

Personally, I don't get a kick out of having a valuable rifle in my safe. So, having it sit there and accrue mild amounts of value by aging is pretty pointless to me. Like having a rare, valuable vintage of wine in a bottle. What's the point? Still, there are people for whom "having" is everything - using, not so much.

I've sold several guns over the years that were too expensive or too nice to shoot. If they're that valuable, someone else needs them more than I.

DF

I actually admire you guys who just use guns to hunt and shoot with. Some days my own collector, "neurosis" feels like quite the burden. I have many pieces here that I will likely never fire and in fact, plan not to. Not that I feel I couldn't (i.e. they are not unfired) but why would I? Why does one fire guns? Well, because you like to shoot or hunt etc. And I do that, and have plenty of pieces that fit the bill nicely. Plenty of them. So, why shoot something that is very rare and valuable when you have plenty of others that fit the bill?

Well, "unfired" isn't actually accurate, because they all get proof tested at the factory But you knew that.

Tough call. Do you consider the Pre-64 a specialty in your collecting? Or was it just a really nice rifle you bought to have, and you just enjoy having it in your collection?

I've...ahem..."deflowered" a few "unfired" collectible guns in my time, a couple of Colts. One probably cost me $300 to shoot, after I decided I didn't like it, and sold it. The other is a Colt 1911 limited edition, and I saw an "unfired" example at a Houston gun show for $4600, which is probably 4.6x what I gave for mine. That price is probably unrealistic, but I do wonder if shooting it cost me $1K or so.

I probably would not shoot the .458. There can't be more than a handful of them left in 99% condition. In their day, they were viewed as a less expensive alternative to the big British rifles, and most were used and used hard. I'm wagering it will continue to appreciate. So keep it and enjoy the appreciation, while still being able to occasionally show it off to your buddies, or sell it it and harvest the profits.

Heck of a rifle, in any case

I have enjoyed this thread and all the different perspectives. It's not like I haven't enjoyed owning and shooting big bore rifles. I've had rifles in .510 Wells, .450 Watts, .460 HE magnum, many .458's and others. I shot all of them. "Tough call" on this one? Not for me. I wouldn't be tempted at all.

I am very appeciative of all the responses this thread has garnished! .......and I thank everyone.

I am going to be 50 years old next year and have been drooling on Winchesters since I was about 35 and had enough spare change to buy one occasionally. I work a lot so I am always dreaming about one day when I will be able to just take off and go hunting for weeks or longer.

In the mean time I'm just going to let this thread go, and maybe I will shoot it on my 50th birthday just to get it out of my system.

By the way, this is the only big bore rifle I own and I have never shot anything bigger than a 38-55 rifle.

I suspect I am going to catch some flak for resurrecting this thread, but I am doing so for two reasons.
1. I really enjoyed the responses, and I enjoyed that the thread did not turn into a bunch of insults. If you never read this thread, it is pretty interesting.
2. Mostly, I really wanted to see how the story ended, meaning did Toddly shoot it our not?
P.S. I did try to use the SEARCH function to find out if there was a more recent thread that answered my question, and I came up empty.