Hey I'm really interested in buying a pre64 m70. First off i cant hardly find any that look like there in good condition or good enough for my taste (98-99%). I know for this condition range I will have to fork out a large roll of cash but oh well. So if anyone can tell me some maybe less traveled auction sites that might have one, it would be much appreciated. I would also thank anyone that can give me some pointers on how to tell if the bluing has been redone, or if the stock has been refinished,or pointers on catching some of the less obvious things like correct butt plate, LOP, esc. Than you for reading.

One thing I can say is if it looks too good, then it's probably been messed with (bluing and wood)....If the stock looks like your typical telephone pole then it's probably original....Metal finish will probably be 3 toned as well. Look for a matte finish receiver, dull blued barrel and half worn floor plate and you'll be in like flynn... . What flavor of pre 64 are you most interested in? Std wt, fwt, supergrade, transition, pre war. What chambering are you looking for as well. We are here to help

Dave Riffle Guns. Model 70

There are some beautiful, high condition rifles on this site.
Not the least expensive...

I've done a ton of shooting in Northern NV. Miss the hell out of those night time rabbit chasings/shootings from the back of a pu truck...

Just my .02, but just like Mausers, when it comes to pre-64 m70s,
its best to handle as many as you can before you buy one. Also
pays to hit the books.

A good, practical use for an AR.

30-06, 270, 264 normal deer rounds basically. And thanks for the reply

Thanks this website is exactly what I was looking for!

There is a lot to learn about the model 70. I would suggest you pick up a copy of Roger Rules book " the rifleman rifle". It will explain to you the 3 main receivers and all of the changes that occurred during its run. Spotting a reblued gun is pretty easy and just like any other gun. Good luck.

I favor the fwt's personally. I've seen a few nice ones on Gunbroker and gunsinternational. Here are a few you can look at:

This one appears to be a nice example of a decent fwt model:
http://www.gunsinternational.com/Winchester-Pre-64-Mod-70-Fwt-30-06.cfm?gun_id=100306450
It's priced a little high, but a good example of an "honest" rifle.

Here's another:
http://www.gunsinternational.com/Winchester-Model-70-Featherweight-in-270-Win.cfm?gun_id=100301721

And another:
http://www.gunsinternational.com/Winchester-M70-FW-30-06.cfm?gun_id=100297682

Dave Riffle once sold me a "98% wood and 98% metal" pre-64 Featherweight. I posted this once before several years ago but to repeat the gist of my old post, the checkering looked like it had been recut by a four year old child. If you buy any firearm from Dave Riffle you better make sure up front about return privileges and when you get the firearm you better make sure and certain to check all the little places on the stock to make sure it wasn't refinished. I also paid him an extra $35 for expedited shipping and got the rifle in over two weeks. I still have the rifle and what I say is true. I would not buy a pack of gum from that man. I also hope his amnesia has been cured.

+1

This ones wood has been refinished.

http://www.gunsinternational.com/Winchester-Model-70-Featherweight-in-270-Win.cfm?gun_id=100301721

I'll have to remember that as well...Thanks guys...

Your guess is as good as mine..

Ol Dave will build one for ya,if he don't have in stock...
Let's leave it at that....

...I don't think so,typical late built gun,finish is weak,like most at the end

That's what I thought as well. Cartrod may have some inside information on that particular rifle though....

Id bet good money. Look underneath the old dark spots are comings thru and someone also recut the machine checkering. When I first learned how to refinish this is what my wood looked like......hell.

I also see dark spots that are dents that seem were steamed out. Too much bluing wear on the floor plate for wood to be perfect.

PS. I don't have any inside info. It's just my opinion.

We value your opinion here. You generally know your business...

Thank you BSA. And without having it in my hands I can still be wrong. I know the closer you get to 1964 the worse the wood looks but the dark rings around the old dents really scream re do to me. IMO.

So Dave rifles is no good? Darn lol he had some good looking rifles on his site... I guess that falls into if its to good to be true then well... you know the rest

well, after looking again I think the light may just be making bluing look worn. If its not refinished it brand spanking new. Don't take my word at this point. I need to hold it in my hands. But again. The dark circles around a dent occurs when the wood is dented, then oil seeps into the grain over time. Then when wood is stripped and sanded that dent remains discolored from oils.

I have had to learn the hard way many times. Fortunately I hope that some wisdom has came with my older age. My friend RAS can tell you some of my horror stories I have confessed to him.

if it helps your pain any, I bought a 7mm pre 64 that was sold as original. It was not, it was what most would make in a few months.

This is why I will always shy away from rare calibers, they say there are more fakes than originals.

That's true,no need to fake a .270/.30-06,but a .35 Rem,.300 Sav,9mm or 7.65,there is money to be made and it's been done and their still floating around to the UN-knowing with money...

...... +1

+2....BTDT.

To the OP....just my opinion but 98-99% finish and condition is nice, but hard to find and generally the purview of the collector types,of which i am most assuredly not one.I don't want one that is abused either, but I look for "good" condition and sound mechanics, mostly meaning no one has screwed with them,particularly the metal,and a barrel in great shape.

They are very durable rifles,good for a lifetime of use and one that has been cared for, but hunted,can be a bargain at the right price and will out last you,and your grandkids will be hunting with it.No need to box yourself into a corner.If buying it to hunt I wouldn't pass one up that is in 99% condition but I'm not gonna worry about getting one either.

Many of the high condition Model 70's are in the hands of collectors, those in the big dealer's displays at major gunshows should be viewed as suspect to have been "doctored". I traveled the gunshow circuit with some of these dealers and have first hand knowledge of their chicanery. There was an individual at that time that had barrel rollmarking dies and could provide these dealers with any rare caliber barrel they wanted. There were many bogus 7.65 and 9mm rifles showing up at that time. In recent times the "parts whores" are tearing down every M/70 they can get their hands on, selling component parts for outrageous prices. There also appears to be an effort at reproducing stocks, don't know the details on this one. Many "custom" Super Grade" stocks showing up, the word custom being used to avoid calling them original. Why would anyone go to the effort to have a custom stock made and have it be a very close copy of an original? Just doesn't make sense. As previous posters have advised, handle as many known original rifles as possible. that's the only way to be able to spot those that are non-original.

I looked at a really gorgeous one today at a local shop, but the stock looked had a couple spots where the finish was thicker. The orinigal finishes on these guns where supposed to bfe good correct? The stock was very clean except for a couple dings and nicks here and there. I walked away never the less because of the finish issue

Some of the factory finishes weren't always perfect. I own and have owned several pre 64's with light sanding marks and even small runs in the lacquer. I've seen this less on M70's and more on bolt rimfires of the time, but I have M70's with these blems as well. They were never made to be collectors pieces, but built by hand. The advice given about handling as many known originals as you can is the best way to know what you're looking at.

The way I spot a reblue is to look at the WP proofmark, these were applied after the rifle was blued. Therefore they were not buffed over, you should be able to feel the raised edge of the impression when you run a fingernail across it. Smooth edges of the proofmark impression are indicative of its having been buffed over prior to a reblue.

8 posts and a 97% pre-'64 isn't good enough for you.

WTF does post count have to do with anything? Time spent on a fourm has nothing to do with the quality of rifle he wants.

New member comes along; only a brand new pre-'64 is good enough for him. He can't find any in good enough condition and wants to know where they're all hiding. Doesn't have a care about spending a fortune. And doesn't know what to look for.

So much for your sense of humor.

The fact that he's asking ??'s and doesn't know what to look for is a valid reason for thinking he's new to collecting. Post count doesn't mean chit. Lotsa folks in internetland have huge post counts cause they spend more time typing than doing, and plenty of posts with little or no substance. Post count don't mean chit.

Bubba, my most original pre 64 was the first one I bought. It came from a verified first owner. The finish sucked and was flaking, I took the stock off and sold it on ebay for $360.00 and went with a nice shooter stock that I picked up cheap....Dumb on my part if I were a collector, but I'm more of a shooter/hunter/collector type...Read my first post about telephone pole finish buddy.....

Ok so that clears up the stock question... The gun also had its rear sights filed on a little it also a small gouge taken out right bellow the sights but the marks wernt silver... Which makes me think the barrel has been reblued since they was made. Any thoughts on this? And thanks agin for the replies guys I'm learning a lot

Do not buy a model 70 unless it has a good clean history, or you can verify where it's been. Of course it is the quickest way to get an education; jumping in.

How would you know if its had a clean history or not? I mean I didn't think there was anyway of knowing on a used gun

your right, really no way to know for sure. I have never seen runs in a factory finish on the wood.

I don't buy 70's once they went to plastic butt plates. So it's easy to tell if metal plate with widows peak is original. You really need to be proficient at spotting a reblue and it won't take to long once you handle some originals. After that learn to recognize wood to metal fit. When they start switching out parts the fit goes to hell, unless they are real good at forgery....(then you have to go back and look at wood finish).

Last would still be to really look close at rare cals and super grades. The super grade needs to first have a proper front sight, then fit and finish comes in. It's really like taking a college class in m70s. And you can still learn after 20 years. Hope that doesn't scare you.

Once you go into the super grades , know the type of cheek piece for your serial no. Learn to always pull the bolt out and check the scribbled no on the bolt and make sure it matches the guns serial no!

Don't let hang tags convince you of originality. The hang tags are now being forged. If the gun has a butt pad and its not a magnum caliber I will usually walk away since I want a stock that's not been cut.

Once you see extra holes drilled in the side of the receiver for a side mount scope, there no collector value.

I could write a book, buts its already been written. Roger Rule wrote it. Buy " the Riflemans Rifle" and read it cover to cover. Then in six months re read it!

Then and only then should you start to plop down big cash for some of the stuff ,

I do like the pre 64 .458 African for investment because they are very difficult to fake and they didn't make very many. $$$$$

Good luck!,!!!,

I would look for a 1950's featherweight in a popular caliber.
If you don't like it, someone else will!

A full size gun in .30-06 might be hard to sell, unless it is from the 30's or 40's and in very good condition.

Best way is to buy from the original owner or a reputable re-seller.

But if you're going to shoot it, why pay such a premium for high finish?

Here's my $700 FWT .30-06

Excellent advice right there guys....I'd have to add that if you aren't a serious collector but want to learn about the model 70's then buy the paperback version of Rules book, "The rifleman's rifle"...It's truly a wealth of information. If you are really serious about starting a nice winchester model 70 collection then buy the hardback version:



Here's 2 of my original (never messed with) fwt's:

30-06 (1956):


308win. (1952):


Notice how they don't look perfect .....

Here's one my friend had that was refinished (metal and wood):

Even though this rifle looked new, the value was lost because of the refinish work. It was a shame too because this is a nice transition model.....

Sometimes the ones that have been put together are very hard to spot like the 375 H&H I had built a couple of months ago. I couldn't afford an all original one so I bought the parts and had one put together . It's pretty much all era correct with 100% original parts but nonetheless it's not...I'll never get rid of it so I don't mind:


[img]http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x401/chiefbsa/006-51.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x401/chiefbsa/004-68.jpg[/img]

Don't worry guys, I'm not going to try to pass it off as an original...It's staying with me ......Hopefully this gives the OP something to think about.....

There is just enough information out there to get a guy in trouble. Model 70's have been counterfeited for decades and good counterfeits can fool an expert. Don't buy anything you can't live with as it is, regardless of the condition.

One of the biggest Model 70 collectors here in Montana had a guy that knew the right formulas for bluing to match original Winchester. He was truly a craftsman to restore a Model 70. The problem isn't in the restoration, it is in the rack that some dealer has and tells you it is original.

Pal, there's nothing wrong with going that route either. I like your fwt even though I give you chit about the recoil pad install...Nice looking rifle there...

77rl for me.

bsa--I'll give you $700 for that non-original .375.

Pal, try finding just the barrel for one of those bastids and get back to me....Let alone the magnum receiver and nice era correct stock

Hell, that Rules book pictured above is worth almost that much

Nah. My paperback copy will do for me. And I have enough rifles, actually. And the .30-06 is all the power I want to handle.

But my point was that $700 isn't much of an investment in a pre-'64 m70. And you don't need to spend $1,000's on an unfired collectible if you intend to shoot it.

Well said my friend...

Found a 1936 first year 90% all original any thoughts plz hurry with replies on this one btw they want around 2000

Caliber?

.220

1936 build would put the serial number in the low 4-digits.

.220 Swift is more common than .257 Roberts.

I have a supergrade pre-64 with the fanciest deluxe walnut they offered at the time. I forget what Dad called it. It is a 300 H&H that I inherited from my Dad. It is original and beautiful. Dad took good care of it and so have I. It has been shot a few times but not a whole lot. I shot it once.

That's probably a beauty. You should post some pics of it sometime. Sounds like one we would all appreciate....

A wealth of information here guys. Thanks to each one for sharing...

I've had one dealing with Dave Riffle and it was positive. The rifle, a Pre-64 Model 70 .30/06, was exactly as advertised and shot very well.

I've only got one pre 64 Model 70. A friend gave me a 300 HH. His Dad was a guide and bought it for dudes to shoot. I think he said they bought it in the 50s? Its got a 6 digit serial number. Would Rules book tell me what year it was made? It's a shooter not a collector. I've had it a couple years and never shot it. I may take it moose hunting this year just for the hell of it.

A lot of us here can tell you when it was made if you give the serial # putting X's for the last couple of numbers to protect yourself. Otherwise yes Rule's book will also get you dates of mfg. There are a lot of online sources and other books for this too.

They only made around 600,000 pre 64 M70's so all but the first 99,999 of them are 6 digit serial numbers.

thanks horse. the Sn is 3078XX.

Late Aug., early Sept. 1954.

Yes '54. I've got a standard grade 30-06 very close in serial#.

Thanks guys. I appreciate you taking the time to look it up. Not quite as old as I am, but close! I was a sophomore in high school in 1954. I think I'll buy the book anyway. It looks interesting.

The book is a great reference. The paperback is much more affordable than the hard cover and has all the same info in it.