Just the stock, that is... . Figured I'd post the "before" pictures. Eric will have to post the "after" pictures. He's damn good with a camera, so this should be a great thread guys....

Let us know what you think. I guess you can call this a continuation of the Alaskan thread I started a few months ago. The stock on this rifle is the original stock. However, It's been professionally pillar and glass bedded. I'd love to claim it as my own, buy I only glassed and freefloated the barrel channel. The recoil pad is an old ventilated Pachmayr. It doesn't look bad and still absorbs recoil quite nicely. EricM and I are thinking a nice Galazan re-pro would be nice on this one, along with maybe touching up the checkering. I'll let Eric fill you guys in on more details later, so this will be a thread I start and Eric will finish it up. Thanks for the support guys. As always, I appreciate the input and I'm sure Eric does as well.

One thing I think we agree on, is this stock is not original and a good refinish would protect the wood better, plus make it look better. However, To me, this is better than original since it is stronger and will likely never crack out like the originals have been known to do. We think it's a great candidate for a refinish, what say you guys (fellow Winchester loonies)...

My biggest concern with this stock is the finish has flaked off in a few places. Not big patches, but it's left the wood vulnerable to the conditions of the field. When I took the rifle elk hunting last year, it rained on me and I noticed the finish was down to bare wood in these flaked off areas. I let it dry out real well, lightly sanded smooth and touched up the areas with some tru-oil so the wood wasn't exposed anymore. Here's what I'm talking about:

This pic was taken before I lightly rubbed the tru-oil into it:

Here's more pictures of the stock and rifle:







[img]http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x401/chiefbsa/011_zps7a6696e6.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x401/chiefbsa/013_zps4f582877.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x401/chiefbsa/014_zps7df04a17.jpg[/img]

It's a pretty good shooter too:
[img]http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x401/chiefbsa/013_zps38af5f9f.jpg[/img]

Since it's already been modified (bedding) then refinishing wouldn't hurt it's value as an original stock. I'd go for a nice refinish and point up the checkering. A solid pad would look better also IMO.

Oh yeah, no white line spacers.

Thanks tmitch. EricM and I were thinking the same thing....

If we could get it looking as good as the 375 H&H stock I sold, that would be damn ideal:



This is kind of what I'm picturing in my mind anyway....

Yep, just like that BSA. I had a Featherweight stock stripped, refinished and pointed up by a guy in CO years ago. (The original owner had sprayed a thick coat of epoxy over it to the point the checkering was smooth) Did a hellofa job. I thought he called himself the Stock Dr but there's someone in OR that goes by that name now. Anyway, go for it and make her look purdy!

Do it. Nothing to lose there.

The stock Dr. lives 30 miles from me.

Might be the same guy, thought it was CO but it's been many years and my memory fails me sometimes. He did some really nice work, never felt checkering as sharp as how that one came out. Good luck, waiting to see the "After" pics.

Thanks for starting this thread, BSA. It's always fun to see the before and after shots on a project like this. I'll try to get some good quality shots after the work is done.

The stock could use a little love but it's not too bad. Since it has already been bedded and has a non-original recoil pad it's the perfect candidate for a refinish job. Like Mitch says, we're looking at a nice refinish, point up the checkering and go with a repro solid pad.

Or I could throw it in a McSwirly...? lol.

Eric

I'm pretty neutral on the refinish, no strong opinion, but I would definitely change the pad.

Even now, even before refinish, and even already glass bedded, it is not a stock you would want to use hard. Refinish will add to that feeling.

Which is all to say that while you are planning for this stock, you might as well start thinking about the "other" stock for this rifle.

I'd go for it. But who am I to say don't do it after just refinishing the wood on my Alaskan! And FWIW, I'm with tmitch and do away with the whiteline spacer. Can't wait to see the results.

Proceed and use Chem-Pak Pro Custom oil. Knock it to satin with rottenstone. Trust me on this.

http://item.brownells.com/brands/ch...unstock-finish-pro-custom-oil-finish.htm

bsa, Is the Galazan repro you have mentioned a couple of times the solid red pad marked "Winchester" with 'made in USA" over it and "Trademark" and "patent June 6 1922" under it? I just received a really sweet '06 fwt. from PSH that has this pad and I'd like to find another one to replace a somewhat cracked vent pad on another gun. This one has the red rubber plugs for the screw holes and just looks "right" on this rifle.

My understanding is that Galazan bought the tooling from Hill & Dale Guns of Savona, NY (long out of business). They were the original purveyors of the repro pads, I have used several over the years. They have the identical markings to the original pads. I had the opportunity to buy that tooling many years ago, $10K was a lot of money back then were I to have known what a money making opportunity it was I would have found a way to come up with the funds. Back then the repro pads were selling for $10.00, seconds(cosmetically flawed, most of the time they cleaned up when fitted) were $7.00.

Seeing as how this stock appears to have only light to moderate wear, you might want to consider this. You might want to do what woodworkers call a "solvent refinish", I have used a product called Qualarenu which is manufactured by Behlen's. Most woodworking supply stores carry it. I used to do touch up work for several gun dealers, many years ago a dealer approaced me with a Newton rifle which had one side of the stock badly alligatored from setting too close to a woodstove or campfire after having been hunted in the rain or snow. Not wanting to destroy the value of a rare rifle by refinishing, I used Qualarenu to dissolve the alligatored finish and restore the damaged finish. The advantage to a solvent refinish is that you are simply dissolving the original finish and spreading it over the scuffs and scratches. The stain is not removed and the wood remains the same color, the finish is original just redistributed so the gloss is the same. Most of the woodworking supply stores have experts who will gladly explain how to use Qualarenu better than I have in this short post.

The Galazan pads are not as true to color as the originals, more 'orangey' than red. Repros also have a comma between the month and year on the patent date, original pads have a period....

The old Winchester finish never was anything to brag on. Used moderately hard in wet and it came off easily and the wood would turn white until it dried. A good oil/urethane combo with a little red tint will duplicate the original almost perfectly along with giving protection and relatively easy touch up when needed.

This one hasn't been done yet and essentially bare wood is showing itself.



This one has. Which way is better for the long term care and preservation of what is no longer made?

I'd just touch up the bad spots.

Thanks guys, the idea here is to have RGK's friend (Justin Mcmillan) do the refinish job on the stock, since he does some damn fine work. I appreciate all the comments. Thanks...

That looks like good stuff!

Love the pics!! I agree with you 100% on preserving what is no longer made.

Eric

BSA, now you're talkin'.

It is. Very easy to apply as well.

No white line spacers!

re-finish it. List how/who did it and the cost so we can all be jealous and/or copy you.

That one with the red recoil pad looks perfect.

Sweet, sounds like a cool project..

Scotty, I think you are going to like this one. I know you have a profound appreciation for the Alaskans, just as I do. EricM is pretty excited to get this one too. I'm wondering if he's fired too many 338's??

This will be my first 338. I haven't fired a 338 before but have shot 375s. I'm really excited to add this to my collection of pre-64's!

Once the refinish work is complete we'll have to discuss optics. lol.

Cheers,
Eric

I see no reason to do anything to this gun except use it to hunt large animals. Having had 3" Model 12 once I can state that more modern vented pad is superior to old Winchester type or it's modern reproduction.

Thanks for you input slavek. The problem with this stock is the wood finish is pretty thin in spots and when I hunted it in a lot of rain last elk season, some of the finish flaked off and I'm trying to avoid damaging the wood underneath. I lightly sanded the spots and feathered in some tru oil so the wood wasn't exposed. The way we are seeing it is the stock has been glass bedded so the collector value on the stock is slim so it makes a great candidate for refinishing with a newer modern finish that will look great as well as protect the wood from the elements. If you've seen RGK's stock that was recently refinished by his friend Justin Mcmillan, you will understand another reason we are wanting to have it refinished..

I think a 3-10 Swarovski would be the chit on this rifle!!!! What kind of mounts/rings are you going to run? I always like the look of the Leupold DD's on these pre 64's.. Conetrol's and S&K's are always an option too.

As far as shooting this rifle, you are going to think you are shooting your 30-06 std wt, but with a little bit more kick... . You'll love it, trust me...

BSA, a 3-10 Swaro with DDs would be nice, for sure! I'd like at least 3.5" of ER, a nice wide FOV if I can get it, with decent mag. A fixed 6 might be cool as well. I'm looking forward to firing that first shot!

I'll be in touch soon... Off to Tanzania!!

Eric

I run Talley QD's for the most part nowadays. Very nice rings and mount up pretty clean as well. Strong as all get out.

I know exactly what you are talking about the finish being thin, mine suffered in 2013 because of the amount of moisture I was hunting in. It made me really push to the McMillan. I rolled it all around in my head over and over. I was thinking on refinishing, but in the end, if I am carrying my 338, I want it to be dead reliable. I know wood can be ultra stable, but it always would worry me.

Can't wait to see the project. You'll love the 338 Eric. I have thought of getting rid of the rest and just running it for everything, but then I come to my senses.

Oh, if you can find a deal on an older Swaro PV 2.5x10 30mm tube, I would take a look at one. I found one a couple of years ago and it is a brilliant scope that will take the punishment any 338 or hunter can dish out.



It's the only scope I own other than the FX3 6X Leupold that tracks like it is supposed to..

Saying that, a 4 or 6X Leupold might not be horrible either..

Though it won't affect your decision to refinish this stock, let me at least show you the slippery slope your above statement is based upon.

Let's say someone is selling a pre-'64 rifle in near mint condition...except that the near mint original stock had been professionally glass bedded. Let's say that makes the rifle worth "X" amount. Now let's say you decide to ALSO refinish the stock, because you found a couple tiny handling marks. YOU BLEW IT! You further devalued the rifle

For someone like bsa who is more a user than a collector, when does preservation-and perhaps he just likes them better when they look good-take precedence over collector value and how much would a good refinish diminish value to another user?

Personally give me a good shooter that has had a first rate, close to original as possible refinish, and I would be willing to pay more rather than less.

In addition: BSA doesn't seem to have any problem selling his shooters-some obviously and stated worked on-at what he considers a fair price. Just a thunk.

Good post battue. I totally agree. I'll bet Eric would also agree. He uses the 1951 std wt. 30-06 I sold to him and he loves it. I'd much rather use this 338 Alaskan than the 95% condition one we were talking about yesterday! Even though the metal on this Alaskan is still pretty decent, it's more of a shooter as it is set up now. Throw it in a nice original Alaskan stock and bingo, you still have a very collectable/valuable rifle. Kind of a win win situation with a rifle like this...

You will not lose a penny on this refinish in that you have a rep for selling good shooters that look good. Put this one up after the refinish and it will be gone within a day at your asking price.

It's already EricM's. He paid for it yesterday .... He's been very excited about getting this one. He's been in Africa for the last year and a half, but we've been talking about this for a while and I finally decided to let him have it since I have my new custom pre 64 338. A man can only have so many good 338's and then he starts feeling a little guilty

I can't think of a downside to owning and using a properly refinished M70 that shoots well, looks good and has a better finish on it than when it was new. I wouldn't get a pre-64 in 7mm or .358 redone, but I wouldn't own a 70 in a rare caliber, either. I like the plain old standard grades for looks and shooting; a good refresh of the original finish, which wasn't all that great, isn't a crime.
Bob

Now you got me drooling and dreaming!!!!! That one sure is nice!!

Roger that; been thinking of opening a home for wayward and abused M70s that need a 2nd chance at life.
Bob

Sounds like a fun project. Where do you plan on hunting it? If your not planning on going anywhere crazy wet. I wouldn't worry about the wood stock.

Ask Mr. Beretz how rainy it was down here 2 years ago during elk season. When it's like that, I don't even think about taking my pre 64's out in the weather. I hunted this rifle last elk season and it got wet for a few days and some of the finish wanted to flake off. This is a bad thing about the old pre 64 finish. I'm thinking a good refinish job on this stock will protect the wood and take some of the worry out of using it in inclement weather..

My comment was pro refinish/keeping the factory stock vs a synthetic.

Even though a legend would be pretty slick.

Gottcha Ben. I really like the wood stocks (Monte Carlo's) on these pre 64's. I've been thinking about selling my swirly on my 30-06 fwt and slapping it back into the factory wood. Kind of on the fence about it though..

I may do the same with mine. Glass bed and refinish.

Hoooowever, it is so damn lucky the way it sits, I'm afraid it may lose its mojo.

Don't do anything to it battue!!! NOT worth taking the chance of losing good mojo. Good mojo is hard to find these days

Yep, I have a pair of fwt 06's. A factory stocked rifle and an edged synthetic.

I leave the rifle in the truck and on the tractor so I bought the edge to toughen the rifle up a little bit....grin

Yes sir. I know all about those. The hunters compact and the fwt are a winning combination. I love mine, even though it doesn't have the edge fill, it balance perfectly with the standard fill. I'm not too concerned about shaving a few more ounces off the total weight, so the standard fill works out nicely.. Sometimes balance wins out to lighter, as I don't like a barrel heavy feeling rifle..

If I look real hard at those swirls, it becomes much like a Rorschach ink blot and I see a striking Cobra.


Well only on days when it is really slow, but I see it.

Oh yea, there it is, plain as day; A Black Widow.

Probably a Yankee thing. We have this sixth sense when it comes to rifles....

Ha ha, that's what I've been hearing.... You and Ben are stirring up trouble aren't you?

No, Ben is a good guy. He doesn't drive a Subaru.

I'm fu cked then because I've been driving an AWD Ford Escape. It's kind of my incognito commuter... Just don't tell anyone...

Ford????

I always knew you weren't right.

Seems to me things are getting confused, and more information/clarification is needed.

First, it seems clear Justin McMillan does beautiful work, but what exactly does he do? It sounds like he cleans up the checkering, maybe does what he can with the dings, and then puts a more durable finish on. Not exactly a professional restoration in that he is not trying to duplicate the not so durable original finish, but is improving on the durability of the finish. This sounds very nice, but what are you going to end up with compared to what you are planning on doing with the rifle?

I think it all boils down to how hard you plan to hunt it. If you are going to hunt in the wet, and use that stock, then a more durable finish is a given.

But the other question is how dinged up is the stock now, how likely is it that it will continue to get handling marks, and how much is it worth to get the handling marks fixed up only to start right back putting more on it?

Early on, I said that it looks like Mr. McMillan could turn a "nice but user" stock back into an almost "safe queen" stock. If he does, then what? Hence my comment that depending on how nicely it is refinished, and how hard you plan to hunt it, you might start planning for "the other" stock, be it a synthetic or a more beat up wood one with a durable finish.

First off. Where are you from and what do you drive? It important to qualify the value of your opinion.

If only obviously.

If you are talking to me:
Texas.
Chevys. Truck, 4WD Suburban, wife drives a Tahoe, and I need to get to work on the '72 SS 396 Chevelle I am the original owner of.
Can I stay?

Texas and a Suburban, imagine that.

However, any who are the original owner of a 396 Chevelle SS gets a pass no matter where they are from.

"72 Chevelle SS 396". I knew there was something I liked about you- that explains it!
John

That car gets me a good bit of "street cred" with my students. It doesn't make sense to me to judge people by what they own, nor by intelligence, as I know some seriously smart people who are first class A-holes. But it is what it is.

I have noticed that lately, when a muscle car appears in a movie there is a good chance of it being a 70-72 SS Chevelle. There is something about that body style that the designers got right.

Say what you will about Texas, but at least we will buck the feds. Politics aside, more classics cars down here because of the weather.

Hey guys,

I'm back from Tanzania. I just got in at 5 am today.

The other day while driving across the Serengeti we came upon three lions. One had bloody paws from a kill and another had a gazelle's head in his mouth!











Eric

Thanks for the tip!! I'll keep my eyes peeled. It looks like a good fit! My time in Africa is coming to an end. This 338 will make the perfect wecome home gift!!

Eric

A Meopta variable in Talley steel rings would work, too. Nice optics.
Bob

I've heard a lot of good things about Meopta but haven't seen them in person. I'll add that to my list to look at.

Eric

Cool lion pictures Eric. A Zeiss Victory or HD5 would be cool too . I'm really liking the looks of mr. Beretz's Swaro too....

Cool pics.

I think you guys have a great plan Im going to make one think about suggestion, Get yourself a couple Super Grade thru stock bolts! They look sharp and IIRC the last ones I bought were only like 22 bucks each. I bought a mid 90's sporter varmint in .308win and someone had drilled the black plug out and installed the thru stock bolt they had done a less than 90% job fitting the thing. I ordered the Super Grade bolts and got with a wood working buddy and had the hole cleaned up and countersink fitted just right. The super grade bolt really set if off, Heck I usually order 2 of any part I get from gunfolks like Winchester,I may well have a pair. my 2c ,very best WinPoor

Winpoor, that's a good idea. Did you find original pre-64 SG bolts or newer ones? I didn't see any on GB.

Cheers,
Eric

Interesting idea winpoor. However, the stock is stout as hell as is with the pillars and glass bedding. The cross bolts would be extra work and purely aesthetical at this point, plus would take away from the original appearance. However, the rifle is not mine anymore so it's entirely up to Eric.

20,000!!!!!!!!

Holy crap BSA, you've been a busy guy!! lol. I'm 15K behind you brother!!

Eric

Guys, the refinishing cost is coming in pretty high. I'm looking at other options now including maybe restocking with an Echols Legend. If anyone has a spare or knows where to get one, please let me know. Cheers!

Eric

I'd just touch it up.

That is definitely an option as well, pal!

Eric

Yes unless we are doing the work ourselves like BSA does,or unless we simply have to keep the original stocks, having a stock professionally refinished may not be cost efficient for a rifle to be used for any hard hunting. By the time we get done paying for glass bedding,recut checkering, finish etc we approach the cost of a good aftermarket synthetic.

Might as well go the whole route and drop the metal in a McMillan or something similar.

Of course like i said if a guy can do the work himself it's a different story. I've done it this way myself but usually opt for the synthetic.

We all have different ways of getting there.

My hard use rifles are stainless New Haven guns in fiberglass. Reasons are obvious. To me, these were another "sweet spot" for the M70. The only two complaints I ever heard that might concern me were about the bolt handle and extractor. If those are issues to you, they are easily dealt with.

In general, stocks are easier to mar and damage than even blued metal. If you want to hunt a Pre '64 hard, or even moderately so, but you have a nice stock you don't want to mess up, then a "user" stock is clearly in order.

To me, and this is just me, part of the allure of using a Pre '64 is staying close to original. So, I go with "beater" stocks that have low collector value. They have either seen hard use, or obviously have been refinished, or have been cut for a pad, or maybe more than one of these things. This works for me. But again, if things are really nasty, the hard use rifles get the nod.

But if you aren't into staying close to original, a nice synthetic certainly works well.

I was always a bit jealous and a bit amazed that JOC would get such beautiful rifles built, and then use them so hard. He took care of them, but he didn't baby them much.

Great news fellas - We're a go with the refinisher! We are sticking with the original plan.

Eric

Project Update: The refinisher upped his price, so I decided to take a different tack and get this rifle restocked into an Echols Legend. It should work well. I'll be sure to post pics when it's done.

I'm going to be researching scopes for this bad boy as my next step.

Eric

My 300RUM ate that very same scope for lunch, and it cost me a buck pushing B&C. I'll never forget it. After sending it back to the factory for repair, a followup phone call to the repair folks there got me this reply "Let me guess, you had this scope on a 300 Ultra Mag?". I'd think long and hard about a Swaro on a hard kicker. I replaced it with a Schmidt & Bender and never looked back, at the advice of one on this website whose opinion is seldom questioned.

Godogs, thanks for the input. Let me guess, you bought a 10x42 S&B?

Here are a few options I'm looking at:

Leupold 1.75-6x32
Leupold 2.5-8x36
Leupold 6x42 LR Reticle
Leupold VXR 3-9x40 Firedot LRV Duplex
S&B 6x42
S&B 8x56 would be fun! lol
Meopta...?

Eric

The Leupold 1.75-6x32mm has been pretty good so far on my .375.
Bob

RGK that's a very nice 375. I like that!

If your not going with a 6x, the 2.5x8 is pretty slick. The B&C reticle makes it a handy combo.

I put a Leupold Vari X III 3.5X10X40 on my 338 and it's been to Alaska and Africa with out any problems. Just my 2 cents.

That's an extremely nice lefty 375.

Eric, the rifle should look awesome in an echol's legend. Can't wait to see it when it's done. Good luck on finding the right scope for the bad boy. I was just running a cheap Burris FFII 3-9x40 with ballistic plex on it, but you know how I am about those scopes

Roger that. It was built for an African Safari that never materialized.
Bob

Weren't you trying to sell it a while back?? I'd be totally spoiled with a rifle like that. Bolt on the right side (for me), safety easier to manipulate, etc. etc.... ... I'm just going to have to suffer along with my pre 64 model 70 375 H&H

I put it up for sale to see what happens...took it out of the safe after 6 years and put it on the block. Since I have almost 600 rounds of factory .375 ammo around, I couldn't resist shooting it yesterday. After 30 rounds of some 300 grain Norma stuff, I had enough. Nice 3-shot groups clustered about 1" high at 100 yards. One group went into 3/4". I won't cry if it doesn't sell. Who knows? Maybe another safari will beckon. In the meantime, I'll probably whack a hog with it.
Bob

Sweet 375! Someone should scoop it up!

Thanks for the ideas, guys!

BSA - The FFII is a good scope. I can see why you like it. I think I'd want a little more ER for this rifle, though. Maybe I'll just get the 8x56 and hunt elk in the middle of the night. lol.

Eric

S&B 3x12 x 50 Klassic

You sure the 56mm OBJ. is big enough???

You think I'm kidding with that 56mm, BSA...? You just wait and see.. lol.

I'm actually leaning towards a Leupold 6x42 LR, but I've had a few Leupolds crap out on me lately so I'm not sure I want to go there.

Eric

Eric, I have a 6x42 on my Mashburn. It is really starting to win me over very fast. It is one of the optics I have bought that I didn't feel ripped off after I started to really use it..

Glad your going with the Legend. I think your making a really good choice. I would have gone that direction, but I had already ordered my McM Pre64 MC.

My Leuopold Vari X III has been on my 338 for ten years if it's a day and never a problem. The only one I ever had take a crap was a Vari X III 4.5X14 on a 257 Weatherby.

Alright guys. EricM is making a great choice and I'm sending the rifle to Mr. Gene Simmilion for an Echol's legend. I just took some pictures of the rifle after I cleaned it up. Here she is. Eric is going to be pretty happy with this one. The bare spots that were touched up with tru-oil are hardly noticeable now after a few months of sitting in the gun cabinet and curing . I chased the threads on the bridge for the scope mounts and pulled it out of the stock and cleaned everything very well. This thing is clean as a whistle now and Gene will hopefully enjoy putting A legend stock on it for Eric. Thanks to all who commented on this thread:







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Take care guys...

I love these old rifles.

NICE bedding job! I'd put a 1" red decelerator on it and call it done. Nice color on that one, too.
Bob

Me too buddy!!!

Looking at the photos, it's really tempting to just keep it as is and add a 1" decelerator! What an awesome rifle!! I'm going to try the Echol's legend, and keep the wood stock just in case I ever decide to switch back. I'm excited about this project!

Eric

I think it is just fine the way it is, touched up. But a new pad would surely be a nice upgrade.

I would leave it as is but change out the pad, but then again I love wood stocks. That rifle is a classic, I'd like to find a std 06 in as good of condition.

YES, YES, YES! Keep old rifles together! If you ever sell it, or when your heirs eventually inherit it, that wood stock should always go with the rifle, even if it wears a different stock for use. Of course, that is just how I see it.

BSA, Looks beautiful and very clean!

That's what I thought as I was crying and shipping it off today...

BSA,

Next time you want to make yourself sad, PM about your .270 Fwt. I'm here to help . . .

Gun Doc

+1 on adding the red Decelerator pad, I had J. Kobe install one on my Ruger Model 77/44. The pad looks great and makes the rifle much more comfortable to shoot. Your M/70 looks great after the touch-up work on the stock.

Love the red decelerator pad. A classy addition to most any rifle.
Bob

Don't worry, she's going to a good home!

I am definitely keeping the wood stock and agree with the idea of adding a red decelerator. A very classy look! But I am also moving forward with the Echols Legend (olive with black splatter) and will go with that for now and see how I like it. I'm considering a S&B 3-12x50 Zenith with EAW mounts.

Eric