Bought a 1905 35 cal. Winchester today. Serial # 873 to me in rough shape on outside but clean as a pin inside. I think early year. Yes it is a auto load. Any info would be helpful. Thank for your help.

I have no helpful info, but I have one with mismatched serial numbers. (They are takedowns, at least mine is. So, before it came to me, some switching occurred. I don't know if it was for a good reason or just stupidity, but it is what it is.) A 1905 was seen a good bit in the AMC TV series "The Son," There is supposed to be a second season, so I expect it will be seen again. Also in the movie about John Dillinger, starring Johnny Depp. The 1905 was sort of the AR of it's time, although I don't know if there were ever greater than ten round magazines.

I apologize, but I messed up. I have a 1907 chambered for the .351 Winchester, and that is the gun from the TV show, the movie about Dillinger, and all the other things I mentioned.

Ammunition is pretty hard, if not impossible to find. Years ago a friend loaded ammo for his using .38 Special semi rimmed cases that had been made for the military AMU marksmanship teams before the S&W 52 came out. That brass may be easier to find than .35 WSL.

Please see edit to my earlier post above. Sorry for any confusion.

I have two of them, one in 35 WSL and one in 32 WSL. Ammo can be a problem but not like it once was. Buffalo Arms has some available at times as does a local shop which is where I usually get my obsolete ammo. I would reload them but I haven't found dies at a price I want to pay, yet.

Magazines are the biggest problem, originals are pretty expensive and can be of dubious use. I found new manufacture mags for my 1907 and 1910 at a place called DKmags in MN. They were pretty reasonable and have worked well. I have found other hard to get and/or expensive magazines there so I wouldn't be surprised if they had 1905s there too.

Bullets can also be an issue, the correct bullet size is .351" rather than the more common .357". I size lead .357" round noses to .353" to load in my 1907 without problem. I've heard of people doing so with jacketed bullets but have heard warnings of jacket separations from people I trust so I don't go there. Besides, for plinking lead works well. Jacketed bullets can be had from Buffalo Arms if desired.

You may find this interesting. A bit of trivia on the family of Winchester SLR’s.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyman_S._Lehman

Lebman built several full auto Model 1907’s for customers. Complete with cutts compensators

And just in case you’re interested!

http://www.bullcreekarms.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=56

Additional friendly advice!

NEVER remove the action spring and action spring op rod from under the big heavy bolt charging handle asseembly.


Just DON’T !!!!!!

Wow Bob, you come up with some of the most interesting stuff! And Lebman was from my hometown to boot!

I went to the wiki link and there was a link to Babyface Nelson. It lists his cause of death as "ballistic trauma". I never heard it called that before.

Thanks for the info and history. Don't know what I will do with it yet just cleaning for now.

LazyL0228,

CONGRADS. = You've found a WINNER for game to about coyote size, which makes little noise & kills about like a LFN .357 MAG out to 100M+.

Over the last 3 decades, I've owned 5-6 of the WSL carbines in .351WSL & currently have (and will keep for the rest of my days) a Model 1910 in .401WSL.

Btw, at one time, GEORGE F. CAKE CO. of Dallas made 10/20/30 round mags for the Winchester SL carbines for police/prison guard use.

yours, tex

Thanks satx 78247

LazyL0228,

I just MAY have some good news for you & your "availability of cases problem". = An old school friend, who shoots a Model 1905 for "called critters", says that SOME of the carbines will shoot .357MAG cases that are simply "cut down to" 1.15 inches & FL resized in the .35WSL dies.

Jack says that SOME .35WSL will happily fire the .cut-down/sized cases with no change. He also said that if yours will NOT chamber properly, then turn-down the case's rim to .405 inch & cut-down to 1.15" in length. - He said that the "turned-down"/trimmed to length/full-length resized WILL work fine if handloaded.

Btw, Jack's "pet load" for his carbine is: a "homebrewed" 180 grain GCCB in front of 13 grains of 2400 yields about 1440FPS and about 825 foot-pounds of ME.
As the .35WSL is NOT a "high intensity round", he says that he often gets 10 reloads for each modified .357MAG case.
His handloaded ammo will pass through both sides of most game that is suitable for that round/carbine & W/O damaging the pelt very much. = Jack says that a thirty-five caliber hole on each side of a skin are easily "patched".

Jack says that he finds it "more than a little amusing" that the same folks who talk about how well that the .357MAG works on WT-sized game out of a long-barreled revolver or a carbine also describe the .35WSL as "inadequate for hunting" or a "nearly worthless pipsqueak", given that the standard .35WSL ammo is SUPERIOR to ANY .357MAG ammo that is safe to fire in a strong revolver (like the S&W Model 27 or 28).

Note: At the last "big" San Antonio gun show, a vendor had a NICE Model 1905 for sale at 200.oo OTD. Had I not already spent too much money that day, I would have bought the carbine.

ADDENDA 2045, 17JUL18: " You oughta' see" the male BOBCAT that jack has mounted in a glass case in his den. - I had NO clue that "Texas spotted kitties" got THAT big. It's HUGE.

BEST WISHES, tex

Satx 78247

Thank I will give this info to my friend he reloads for us and has a few 357 guns. I think I would have went to atm and got 200.00 for that carbine. But that's me do not find many gun like that up here.

LazyL0228,

Actually I had the 200.oo in my pocket but spending it would have wiped out my "mad money" for a spell & my Darla would have been REALLY UNHAPPY. = As it was, walking into the house, staggering under my load of "booty", did NOT make her smile.
(She was MUCH happier when I told her that most of the cases were "merchandise", rather than to keep.= I constantly buy & sell to upgrade my collection.)

Note: I actually collect REMINGTON pump rifles & pre-WWII COLT's revolvers/SA. The little WSL carbine would have NOT been on the "buy & keep list".
(My .circa 1911, 401WSL carbine was bought from the estate of one of my grandfather's childhood friends. = It will be kept or sold by my daughter after my passing.).

Also, the gun-show, at the end of this month, will have a vendor out of Corpus Christi, who has (or had as of yesterday evening) what he told me by phone is a "near mint" 4-inch Colt's Police Positive Special from (according to the SN) late 1918 or early 1919, with the factory box & wearing what he described as "EXCELLENT PLUS" condition & "era correct" hard rubber grips (Robbie says that there are some "light handling scratches" on the left grip.) for an excellent price, for cash. ====> That little Colt revolver is on my "buy & forever keep list".

yours, tex

satx78247
Well I though you would have the money in hand. But what control not to spend it to keep wife happy. I have had to do the same thing some days need to keep mad money. Enough of that I have a 1930 Remington model 12 with R-12 Lyman peep. I myself keep Marlin's and Winchester's and Colt's. If you would like pictures pm me with how I can send them. To see what you think.

Keep cool, Fred

LazyL0228,

Fyi, I have several copies of my "want list" in the hands of several TX FFL dealers & even 4 large pawn shops. - This AM, I got an email from one of the FFLs that he has an "as new" Model of 1909 "Artic" Colt's New Service revolver, that is marked as having once been owned by the TX Highway Department.
(The THD was the state agency that employed after 1927, the TX Motor Patrol motorcycle troopers before the Texas Department of Public Safety was formed in 1935. - Original Highway Department weapons, regardless of maker, are marked with "HD" & a 1-4 digit number, starting with "HD1". = That Model 1911 Colt SA in .45ACP is on display at Building C, TX DPS HQ in Austin.)
SOME, though far from all, "HD-marked" firearms were "surplused off" in the 1950s & some were given to retiring DPS personnel over the next 2-3 decades. A few other Highway Department marked revolvers (Model of 1917 S&W) were reportedly "long-term loaned" to the Texas State Guard for TXNG Armory security use during The Korean War & the Cuban Missile Crisis.
In my boyhood, "MSG B_________", the local TXARNG AST, had one of those "loaned out" Model of 1917 S&W revolvers available for his use when doing "nighttime armory security checks".

Note: "HD-XXXX" firearms were issued by TX DPS & "certain other State agencies" until after WWII, due to "limited budgets"
(I was recently told by a retired DPS LT that the last "HD" pistol to be officially issued for "TX DPS duty" was issued to a new Special Ranger Private during the early part of the Korean War, because he didn't have & couldn't afford to buy a handgun for his new job. - Btw, our Rangers have traditionally furnished their own weapons, saddle, tack & vehicles.)

ADDENDA: Fwiw, there were 18 TX Motor Patrol troopers in ALL of Texas in DEC 1935, just before the DPS was authorized by the TX Legislature.
By 31DEC1935, there were 120 DPS Troopers of the new TX Highway Patrol, plus about 2 dozen Special Agents of the Revenue Department (Now the TABC), a very small Austin HQ staff and 40-50 Texas Rangers.

In 1966, when I was an undergrad at UT, I spoke to a retired THP SGT, who said that, "Before WWII, I knew every Highway Patrolman & likely 90% of the other DPS personnel, well enough to call them by first name. The DPS was really small in those days & we ran a 'shoestring operation' because of The Depression."
The retired SGT paused & then said, "Because of WWII & the necessity of Statewide security requirements during the War, the DPS grew 'by leaps & bounds'; we 'regulars' called the new people, 'the temporary help' but after the War, they were kept on as permanent hires."
(As readers have doubtless guessed, I'm interested in the history of TX law enforcement & have written about that subject for periodicals a few times.)

yours, tex

The original school for Texas Motor Patrol was a contingency of 50. By 1935, they may have been down to the teens. Some governors had little use for L.E. and sometimes cut the force. My first Highway Patrol captain was a member of the group. Then there was the expansion class of 1937 under DPS.

Texas Rangers were issued firearms, but were allowed to carry their choice of weapon into the nineties. May still be the case. I went to work at DPS in 1959. Rangers were issued automobiles. Saddles were personal.

When I was a H.P. Sergeant in the early seventies, I loaned our assigned ranger both horse and saddle when he needed them.

BTW, my first sidearm was a S&W .38 H.D. It was marked as DPS. My long gun was a .351 WSL, of which I was not very fond of.

Jack

it402,

INTERESTING. Your figures are NOT what the historical display at Building "C" at DPS HQ states that the numbers were, as of 2 Fridays ago.
For one thing, according to a document in the display case, there were exactly 18 active Motor Patrolmen on the day that the legislature authorized forming the DPS. The document states that all of the TM Patrolmen had "been hired on" as License & Weight Inspectors by the THD.- Nothing in the display indicates that there even WAS a school for the TMP, much less that there was a first class of 50 students.
(There was much in that display that I didn't know about the early days of the TX Highway Department Enforcement Branch & the "infant days" of the DPS.)

Fwiw, I made copious notes on the data there & so much so that a 50-ish gentleman in a dark suit & boots came up to me & (rather rudely) asked me, "WHO are you & what the H are you doing?"
I showed him my retired military ID card, TX CHL & told him that I was gathering information for a possible article on the history of TX state-level LE. - He stood there for a long moment & finally said, "UH, well I guess that's OK," & stalked away W/O another word.

Out of curiosity, did the Model 1907 WSL carbine that you were issued by DPS have one (or more) of the extended George F. Cake magazines?? - Those mags came in 10, 15, 20 & 30 round capacity at one time.
(I'm "negotiating to buy" a 20 round G.F Cake magazine for my treasured Model 1910 WSL carbine in .401WSL. The magazine one of several that was bought by the Smith County SD in the WWI era. - The carbine originally belonged to one of my grandfather's childhood chums & was bought in 1911 or in 1912.)

Btw, my intense interest in the early days of TX LE started when I was 6-7 YO, when my dad took me to meet CPT M.T "The Lone Wolf" Gonzaullas, who had been friends with my dad since the first wild days of the Kilgore oil fields. After WWII, they renewed their friendship, when CPT Gonzaullas was chasing the Phantom Killer in Texarkana & my dad was coaching at Texas High.
(I remember that he pulled me up into his lap, talked to me & also fed me part of the ham/cheese "po-boy" sandwich with French fries, that he was eating.)
Later in my boyhood. I met & was taught Sunday School lessons for several years by Ranger Robert M "Red" Arnold, who was known then as, "The Law in East Texas".
(Fyi, I went to school with Joan Arnold too, as long as I lived/went to church there. - I left "home" & went off to boarding school just before my 16th BD. - Joan & I still email each other from time to time, as Aileen & Joan were also longtime friends of my late mothers.)

I said all that to say this: Had it not been for my outright HERO WORSHIP of those two gentlemen, I seriously doubt if I would have picked a career as a peace officer, though I followed the federal side of the house.
(Fwiw, my mother was quite disappointed in my career choice, as she wanted me to attend Baylor, go to SW Seminary in Ft Worth & then be a Baptist preacher, an Army chapalain or perhaps a foreign missionary. = Her family was once filled with numerous/well-regarded Southern Baptist evangelists & evangelistic singers, like R.A. Stinson, Billy Sunday & George W. Truitt.)

yours, tex

jt402,

IF you are willing to share any source documents on the TMP/THP & the early days of the DPS, I would be pleased.

As I'm working on a "more or less scholarly" monograph for publication upon that subject, I want to assure that what is printed is CORRECT inasmuch as it is possible after nearly 9 decades to be correct in every detail.

Your memories of being a HP trooper in the 1950s until your retirement would also be appreciated, if you care to share any such information.

Respectfully, tex
USAMPR, Retired.

Years ago I had a full set of self loaders from the 1903 which fired a proprietary 22 rimfire auto to the 1910 firing the .401 WSL. I sold them while going through a divorce. They are an interesting design but heavy and of modest power. The 1903 had a tubular magazine loaded through a port in the stock like the little browning autos. Of the bunch, I think the 351 SL was the most capable.

Remington's model 8 and later model 81 were contemporaries offering greater power than Winchester's early blowback design.

T.S.

TexasShooter,

While I agree with you on the Remington Model 8 & the 81, have you ever hunted with a Winchester Model 1910 in .401WSL??
Btw, I own 3 Remington rifles in .300SAV & one of those is a "late model" Model 8.
(That fat/blunt .406 caliber 250 grain bullet at about 2,000FPS is "A KILLER" & fully as deadly out to 150M on deer, black bear & feral hogs, as my .308WCF is.)
I would not fear to use it on elk or moose at "woods ranges", if I didn't have access to another rifle.
(Elmer Keith once described the exit wound from the 250 grain .401WSL as , "a large bloody rathole". = I find that the .401 bullet nearly always exits the far side of even BIG hogs. It leaves an easy to follow blood trail.)

yours, tex

Hi Tex, Nope, I never hunted with my .401. I'll rely on your experience. Curious, are you really getting 2,000 fps with your 250 grain loads?

Also, take a look at your Remington in 300 savage. Are you sure it's not a model 81?

Best regards, TexasShooter

PS - I'll take Elmer Keith's word on all things firearms.

TexasShooter,

YEP, presuming that my friend's chronograph (I've never owned one.) is anything near correct, I'm getting about 2000FPS with 250 grain "homebrewed" 250 grain GCCB, in front of 28 grains of IMR4227. - That's only 45FPS faster (W/O signs of over-pressure) than the old "Police use only" Remington-Peters load. - My carbine does fine with it but "Your mileage may vary."

As to my Model 8: Several "advanced collectors" have examined it & believe it to be one of the "hybrid" Model 8-81 "transitional models", that were "made-up from spare parts" & sold to LE & corrections agencies "at a deep discount" during The Great Depression.
(My rifle was bought by the Smith County Texas Sheriff's Department sometime before WWII. - NO sales document for it is known to exist in 2018. - It was "surplused-off in the 1960s & I bought it "well-used" & in serious need of refinishing from a LGS in Longview, TX about 30 years ago.)

Fyi, the Colt, Remington, S&W, Winchester & other gunmakers were "in sad shape" for sales in the depths of The Depression & some "downright peculiar" firearms were made up from parts & sold to police departments, make some cash "to keep the doors open".
(My "little brother" owns a "hybrid" 12 gauge pump-gun with 26" barrel that he had "lettered" & YEP it's "factory-correct" with the receiver/stock of a Winchester Model 12 & the entire front end of a Model 1897. = The shotgun was sold in 1934 to a Mississippi prison camp, i.e., for use by guards/"gun bulls" of the notorious MS "chain gangs". - The stock is crudely "hand-lettered": CRC-14, which I'd guess was the inventory number of "county road camp, gun # 14" but I may be 100% wrong about that.)

Note reference my "little brother", who is 5' 10" tall & weighs about 240 pounds of solid muscle, was once said to be, by a family friend: "He's only little when compared to a Buick."
(Everyone at the dinner table LOL at Rex's quip.).

yours, tex

Ha Ha Ha… Thanks for the great and fascinating information !!!!!!!! I'm almost wishing I would've kept my 401. But, my gun room is busting at the seams as it is.

T.S.

TexasShooter,

Well one thing is certain.= It will be a LONG time until anyone gets a chance at my Model 1910, as it is in my will to my 44YO daughter & she's already told her "quasi-mother" that she won't ever sell it because it is mine.
(I got the carbine out of the estate sale of one of my grandfather's boyhood chums, who as a boy I called, "Mr. C. - .He bought it in about 1911 or 1912, according to his ("Miss Em" passed away in 1986) widow Emily Ruth C__________..)

The group of 70-85YO men, who were my grandfather's friends, "took me under their wing" after my grandfather passed away when I was not quite 13YO. = My mother dismissed the group as "Daddy's play-fellows" & tried to ignore their existence.
(Mother was NOT amused when she found out that one of "the play-fellows", "Mr Bob" had given me most of a 1/2 pint fruit jar of white likker/moonshine to drink, saying "A full-growed man has to learn to handle his corn. - It's time you learned." - I was then not quite 2 months past my 15th birthday & just before Christmas in 1962.)

yours, tex

Great memories. My grandfather was a Texas game warden for 35 years in Colorado County. He was my role model and took me hunting and fishing from the time I was ten years old. He passed away in 1982 at 92 years of age. I still miss him. Here's a pic of us when I was a kid. He also coached our little league baseball team. As you can see, he would crumple his hats and wear them anyway. Those old timers never threw anything away. LOL

TexasShooter,

Great picture!

TexasShooter,

GREAT photo.

All of my grandfather's "play-fellows" were "promoted to Glory" long ago & I miss them still. = The last of them passed away while I was OCONUS with the Army in 2001 at age 102.
("Mr. Rex" had been a Lance Corporal, USMC & lost part of his right lung at the Battle of Belleau Wood on 08JUN1918 & once told me that he was "heartbroken" that the Marines didn't want him back for duty in The South Pacific during WWII.)

yours, tex

Thanks to both for the comments on the photo. I have several of me and my grandfather but that's my favorite. :-)

TexasShooter; All,

Men like your beloved grandfather, my grandfather & his boyhood chums are all GONE now & I fear that we will not ever see their like again. = More than 3/4 of my grandfather's friends (and who "put up with me", when I was a wet behind the ears kid) volunteered to serve in combat in WWI, WWII & in the Korean War.

They all believed that being a soldier, sailor, airman, marine was the DUTY of a MAN, when the USA badly needed such people in time of war or national emergency, to fight "The Hun" in 1918, to end the NAZI terror or to turn back the North Koreans/Red Chinese hordes, who were trying to conquer South Korea.

By the "standards" (IF one can call the current "popular opinions" of "modern society", "standards") of the 21st Century, there weren't "important people" at all. = Most of them were former "CCC boys", "dirt under the fingernails" small farmers, small contractors, carpenters, mechanics, shopkeepers, "sawmill trash", stockmen, roughnecks/tool pushers in "the oil patch", small/rural county lawmen, moonshiners, trappers, hound-men & other similar trades.
(One, "Pastor Jack", had been a Army Chaplain in WWI, was "gassed with mustard" & thereafter wasn't able to "hold a regular, fulltime job". - Nonetheless, by hunting/fishing, breeding/selling coonhounds & the VERY small "love offerings" that his little Missionary Baptist church could afford to pay a pastor, managed to keep a roof over the head of his wife & 4 kids.)

At 71YO, I remember all of "the play-fellows" as GIANTS. I see FEW men in 2018 who are their equal. - They were all HEROES, imo.

yours, tex

Tex, I agree 100% . Men back then were made of sterner stuff. I knew some growing up as well. I am 70 YO. I still come across some in the younger generations that have the right stuff but, they are few and far between. Americans as a whole, have had it too good for too long. Growing up under difficult conditions, as past generations have, endowed people with the strength to endure and a hunger to achieve. Sadly, I'm convinced the only way back is via another major calamity.

T.S.

TexasHotter,

Your grandfather & mine as well as their "fellows" were members of THE GREATEST GENERATION for sure.

Fwiw, my grandfather was turned down for military duty in both WWI (because he was in a "shortage & necessary to the war effort" occupation = Sawmill owner, who was providing lumber & heavy bridge timber to the Forces) & WWII (because of age = 67YO).
Nonetheless, he hurried to replace a local county constable (who had rushed to serve in the AEF) in WWI & served as the "temporary for the war plus 6 months" county sheriff (as a "dollar a year man") in WWII.

Btw, my grandfather said that during both WWI & WWII that with the vast majority of the men gone off to war that there wasn't much for our county's police/SD to do. = Our county by 90 days after Pearl Harbor was, "virtually all old men, women & younger children".
He also said in WWI & WWII that it was difficult to get his sawmill employees & the lumbermen, who provided logs to the mills, to understand that their normal work was VERY important to the war effort, as lumber was NEEDED critically..

yours, tex

I Second!!!!

LazyL0228,

Did you talk to your buddy about loading you some ammo?? - I cannot wait to hear how the little carbine does.

yours, tex

satx78247,

Yes he is working on it now sent over the info to him. He said should not be to hard of a job. But when done should be able to reload a few more times. He knows best. Maybe next weekend for sure. Also we were at a show in indy picked up a model 255 in 22 mag. in almost new shape. Have been shooting it love a lever!!!

later,fred

LazyL0228,

GOOD on 'ya.

You sound like you feel about levers as I do about pumps.

The sole LA that I would really like to own is a Model 95 Winchester rifled-musket (in fill military dress) in .30 Army, .30-03, .30-06, .303 British or even in 7.62x53mm Russian.

yours, tex

satx78247
Will keep a eye for one you never know.

later fred

LazyL0228,

THANKS Fred.

yours, tex

what he says in SPADES!!

kaywoodie; deerstalker,

As strong as those parts are, I cannot imagine why you'd even want to, unless you're the sort of person who just has to take things apart. = As I've said elsewhere, I've owned about half a dozen Model 1907 & a pair of 1910 carbines over the last 40 years plus & even beat-up & cruddy from being bounced around & being lugged for years in/out of a patrol car or guard tower, they all still shot OK. with nothing more than a little general cleaning & wipe-down with an oily rag.

I bought one .351WSL carbine one Summer afternoon, that looked 100% AWFUL, for 25 bucks, about 1970, just to get the POLICE EQUIPMENT COMPANY extended magazine . - Despite the cracked/crudely glued fore-end, it still shot fine, after the bore was wiped-out & the accumulated dirt/crud/surface rust was removed.
(I wish that would have been smart enough to keep that magazine, as it alone is now worth a goodly pile of bucks. - It & my "2nd best looking" 1907 carbine got traded off for an early "first issue" Colt's Diamondback 2.5", which had the smoothest action that I've ever felt.- The DB had been "worked over" by a Master Colt's Armorer from the NOCSO.)

Btw, I ended up giving the Model 1907 to my former HS shop teacher, who completely refinished the metal & made himself a new & HANDSOME stock/fore-end from BIRDSEYE MAPLE.
(When Mr. MacDougal passed away about 2 decades later, he was still hunting with my "junk carbine".).

yours, tex