One of my favorite movies is "Breaker Morant." How well known, and thought of is he in Australia? Captdavid[u][/u]

Damn good movie

Bryan Brown was also in the WWII movie 'Australia' opposite Nicole Kidman. He's a very good actor.

If it weren't for the movie most people here wouldn't know about him.

Sitting in the DVD collection as we speak.
Reminds me a lot of the movie Gallipoli w/Mel Gibson. Seems like the colonials were always getting crapped on.





"Shoot straight, Ya, Bastards !"

Lieutenant Henry Harboard (Harry) 'The Breaker' Morant was in fact an Englishman,
hence likely why Australians don't care much for such history...on top of the fact that
despite the Boer War being Australias first war as a nation( federation occurred in 1901
during the Boer war) it remains mostly a forgotten war by Australians.

Prior to 1901 federation, the separate colonies independently supplied their own
voluntary militia units for the Boer War.

1864, born Bridgewater Summerset, UK.
1883, arrived in Aus.
1899, signed up to 2nd Contingent, South Australian Mounted Rifles.
Boer war service 1899-1902...his 1899 enlistment ended after 12 months
where he return to UK..then returned to the Boer War under a commission.

He had earned himself a reputation for shooting prisoners, looting and
insubordination even before the incidences that he faced military trial for.

Prior to enlisting he is remembered as a womaniser and frequent welsher on his debts,
and of course a horse breaker.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/breaker-morant-relics-found-on-rubbish-tip-20160422-gocn1a.html

Boer War Australian Colonial Imperial forces prior to 1901

Colony of New South Wales:

New South Wales Lancers - Cavalry
New South Wales Army Medical Corps -
'A' Squadron NSW Mounted Rifles -Mounte dinifantry
New South Wales Mounted Infantry (later "E"Sqn) Mounted Infantry (+ 1 machine gun section)
First Australian Horse -Cavalry
'A' Bty. New South Wales Artillery
First New South Wales Mounted Rifles-Mounted Infantry
New South Wales Citizens' Bushmen - Mounted Infantry
New South Wales Imperial Bushmen - Mounted Infantry
Second New South Wales Mounted Rifles - Mounted Infantry (+ 1 machine gun section)
Third New South Wales Imperial Bushmen -Mounted Infantry
Third New South Wales Mounted Rifles Mounted Infantry (+ 1 machine gun section)
Special Service Officers (NSW)

Colony of Queensland

1st Queensland Mounted Infantry -Mounted Infantry
2nd Queensland Mounted Infantry -Mounted Infantry
Queensland Citizen Bushmen (later) 3rd Queensland Mounted Infantry / 2nd Bushmen Regimen -Mounted Infantry
Queensland Imperial Bushmen - Mounted Infantry
5th Queensland Imperial Bushmen -Mounted Infantry / Bicycle Infantry, arrived with 3 mounted squadrons/ 1 cyclist company
6th Queensland Imperial Bushmen - Mounted Infantry
7th Queensland Imperial Bushmen - Mounted Infantry, 7th Contingent was in fact drafts for 5th and 6th Contingents
Special Service Officers (Queensland)

Colony of South Australia

1st South Australian Mounted Rifles - Mounted Infantry
2nd South Australian Mounted Rifles - Mounted Infantry
South Australian Nurses
South Australian Citizens' Bushmen -Mounted Infantry
South Australian Imperial Bushmen -Mounted Infantry
5th South Australian Imperial Bushmen -Mounted Infantry Amalgamated with 6th SA Imperial Bushmen in May 1901.
6th South Australian Imperial Bushmen -Mounted Infantry Amalgamated with 5th SA Imperial Bushmen in May 1901.
Special Service Officers (South Australia)

Colony of Tasmania

Tasmanian Mounted Infantry - Mounted Infantry
Tasmanian Citizen Bushmen Mounted Infantry.
1st Tasmanian Imperial Bushmen -Mounted Infantry
2nd Tasmanian Imperial Bushmen - Mounted Infantry
Special Service Officers (Tasmania)

Colony of Victoria

1st Victorian Mounted Rifles -Mounted Infantry
2nd Victorian Mounted Rifles -Mounted Infantry
Victorian Citizen Bushmen -Mounted Infantry
Victorian Nurses
Victorian Imperial Bushmen (Australian Imperial Regiment) -Mounted Infantry
5th Victorian Mounted Rifles -Mounted Infantry
Recruits for Scottish Horse -Mounted Infantry
Special Service Officers (Victoria)

Colony of Western Australia

1st Western Australian Mounted Infantry -Mounted Infantry
2nd Western Australian Mounted Infantry -Mounted Infantry
Western Australian Citizen Bushmen' -Mounted Infantry
Western Australian Nurses
4th Western Australian Mounted Infantry (Imperial Bushmen) -Mounted Infantry
5th Western Australian Mounted Infantry -Mounted Infantry
6th Western Australian Mounted Infantry -Mounted Infantry

Post Federation COMMONWEALTH of AUSTRALIA FORCES- Boer War.

1st Australian Commonwealth Horse -Mounted Infantry
2nd Australian Commonwealth Horse -Mounted Infantry
Commonwealth Army Medical Corps recruited from NSW, QLD, SA, VIC, WA
3rd Australian Commonwealth Horse -Mounted Infantry did not see action
4th Australian Commonwealth Horse -Mounted Infantry 5 mounted rifle sqns (3 VIC, 1 SA, 1 WA); did not see action
5th Australian Commonwealth Horse -Mounted Infantry 4 mounted rifle sqns (all NSW); arrived after war ended
6th Australian Commonwealth Horse -Mounted Infantry 4 mounted rifle sqns (all VIC); arrived after war ended
7th Australian Commonwealth Horse -Mounted Infantry 4 mounted rifle sqns, (all QLD); arrived after war ended
8th Australian Commonwealth Horse - Mounted Infantry 4 mounted rifle sqns (2 SA, 1 WA, 1 TAS); arrived after war ended.

VCs awarded:

NSW Medical Corps- Neville Howse
1st Tasmanian Imperial Bushmen- Trooper John Hutton Bisdee, and Lieutenant Guy Wylly.
5th Victorian Mounted Rifles - Lt Leslie Maygar.
6th Western Australian Mounted Infantry - Lt frederick william Bell.

Yeah, he was just a murderous bastard. Didn't deserve being made famous by a movie.
Says a lot about Australia that its two most legendary characters are Breaker Morant and Ned Kelly, both of them actually just thieving murderers to be honest.

Morant is the most or 2nd most legendary Australian character?..where do you draw that conclusion from?
and if it wasn't for the English having their constant hate and mistreatment of the Irish , Kelly might not have
taken exception to it.

If you bother to read up on your British empire Kiwi colonial history, you will find it was the most lawless violent
white settlement in that part of the ocean under the British Empire.- It became so bad because:

1./ the unregulated transient nature of its white european occupants
2./ There was for a good time, no British marines or garrisons stationed there to keep the constant crime, violence,
and decrepit behaviour in check. The rampant violence and lawlessness that took place there was far worse
than what occurred under the martial law controlled British colony in Australia.

It got so bad that the British were forced to send a commanded detachment of military force from the NSW colony
in desperate attempt to try and get some sort of civil order in NZ. -At that time NZ wasn't really recognised as much,
for it was merely part of the Colony of NSW.

What about Peter Handcock? What about the Englishman who was pardoned for the same crime?

You really need to read up on the history of the Kelly's if you think they are cold blooded murderers. Your lack of knowledge is embarrassing.

Two British officers heavily implicated in ordering Morant and his crew to shoot prisoners,
never faced the music. 1) Captain Hunt who was dead, and 2/.Captain Taylor, Lord Kitcheners intel officer.

St Clair, a notable and senior lawyer responsible for reviewing inquiries and proceedings involving
breaches of the Army Act was convinced by the evidence he reviewed against the accused,
including Captain Taylor. His findings about Captain Taylor are significant. He confirmed that
he as the superior officer of BVC officers and men, was responsible for issuing orders not to take prisoners.

Taylor and Hunt as British officers were superior to Morant and gave directions that they expected be
followed. Morant and his co-accused were merely irregular volunteer soldiers .It is also clear from St Clair’s
findings that it was Captain Taylor who took the initiative to issue orders not to take prisoners. It was not
at the instigation of Morant, who earlier had been reprimanded by Captain Hunt for refusing to obey the order.

Morant eventually followed the order when he found his friend Captain Hunt had been tortured/killed by Boers.


Major Thomas, Morants legal representative delivered this statement to the court concerning the accused persons
assigned task of dealing with guerrillas operating under no rules of engagement or protocols of laws of war:

" the prisoners’ defence is that, no matter in what way the charge against them has been, or might have been framed,
the action they respectively took in the summary execution of these eight Boers was justifiable, or, at any rate, not criminal’.
‘That which would be a crime, a felony, or a malicious act in time of peace may be quite justifiable in time of war, and doubly
so in guerrilla warfare, waged against men who cannot be regarded as lawful belligerents, but only as lawless bands of
marauders, who carry on desultory hostilities, combined with train wreckings and other uncivilised practices. Upon such an
enemy I maintain our troops are justified in making the severest reprisals, and are entitled to regard them, not as lawful
belligerents at all, but as outlaws."

re: N.Kelly, from what little I've read, Neds gang surely sealed their own fate after conducting a brazen pre-emptive ambush
on the police patrol encamped at Stringybark creek, killing three of the four police in an ensuing shootout. If I read correctly,
It was only after that incident , that they were then officially declared outlaws and rewards posted. Following that the gang
then robbed a bank.

Police of those times were to a degree like a mercenary force where people could not necessarily expect fair and just dealings
with them. But the Kelly family and associates were no angels themselves. Unfortunately things escalated to tragic ends for both
sides...and both rightfully should bear some blame for that. Those were no doubt different and harsher times.

From the beginning,forms of law and order enforcers be it military or civil in the early colonies were rather corrupt.The NSW Corps
under officer McCarthur being a prime example. McCarthur and men were also later charged with insurrection. When the first civil
police force was formed in the first British colony in Aus. it was made up of 12 or so, of the best behaved convicts.

When the First Fleet arrived in late Jan. 1788 to settle on Aus soil, included were 212 Royal Marines to keep the convicts in check...
Governor Phillip later ordered and conducted the hanging of 6 Royal Marines for stealing from gov. stores, the seventh survived
by being an informer.

The men that the Royal Marines and NSW Corps were recruited from, in some cases had backgrounds no better than the convicts
they were assigned to guard. Of course that problem wasn't exclusive to those two groups, you could say much the same for many
of the more regular British garrisons.

Breaker Morant and Ned Kelly are the first two legendary Aussie characters. The third one is the jolly swagman by the billabong.

You just made up that entire post about NZ history as you were typing it. And I'm not sure what that's got to do with Breaker Morant and the Ned Kelly. Neither of them ever went to NZ.

I'm not going to bother explaining 19th century New Zealand history to you. If anybody is interested there are some excellent books out there about it. Start with the musket wars and go forward from there.

Yeah I ve read about them. It only reinforced my opinion on Australian police officers and made me observe that nothing has changed much. And the Kellys are still murderers too.

You Aussies have to stop blaming everything on the English. You would have though that after the genocide of the Tasmanian abo's and the general oppression of the rest, the utter corruption of your politicians and police force, you would just come clean and admit that the entire colony was founded with criminals and just give up.
When I lived there the nations pastimes were drinking and racism.

That is an utterly uncovincing defence for murdering prisoners and civilans. The court thought so too obviously, because they shot him.

Every soldier has the duty to refuse to obey an illegal order, but the characterisation of Morant as 'simply following orders' is not convincing motivation, not for him or his men, who initially objected to shooting prisoners but later were happy enough to shoot people out of hand, including civilians and black Africans who just happened to be there.
But the Breaker Morant story certainly seems to sum up the that whole war as far as English behaviour and attitude towards colonial peoples go. (I dont mean towards him - he was an agent of British arrogance.)

So?

You must be an Aussie. Hows the drinking and racism coming along?

You are a pathetic looser. The Kelly's were Irish, police were Irish. Seeing as you know so much, why don't you tell us what happened when Fitzpatrick went to the Kelly homestead? It was soley on his word that the warrants for attempted murder were issued. Why were the police out of uniform in the Wombat rangers, why did 8 men in 2 parties search for what they thought were only 2 people? Why did the Mansfield boot maker make up a heap of long leather straps to carry out the bodies? Why didn't the police carry the warrants on them like they were legally obliged to? I'll tell you why smart arse, the police went to murder the Kelly bots and lost.

As for once living here, all I can say is thank God you have gone. 1 less whining cuzzy bro over here thieving jobs of us. Maybe you could get a few thousand more to head home with you?

There is 1 thing I never understood about Kiwi's. You will all fight for NZ, you will die for NZ, you will barrack for NZ, but none of you will bloody live there.

Ok, I will ask again...what source(s) do you draw that conclusion about Morant from?



Then its highly evident you as a KIWI really don't know your NZ-British colonial empire history....since NZ was indeed
part of the Crowns colony of NSW, and thus came under the administrational and durastictional laws of such.

https://nzhistory.govt.nz/letters-p...d-a-colony-separate-from-new-south-wales

The below map link shows in pink, the basic boundary of NSW lands as first defined and claimed by Cpt. Cook for the Crown
on Possession Island 22nd August 1770 and as it still remained when the First Fleet arrived in Australia 1788, with NZ remaining
part of the same till 1840.
When in Jan 1788 the actual colony of New South Wales had been founded, Its Governor, Captain Arthur Phillip had amended
the Commission to alter the boundary not of the crown lands claimed by Cook, but of the colony itself. -- Dated 25 April 1787,
the colony of New South Wales now included all the islands adjacent in the Pacific Ocean within the latitudes of 10°37'S and 43°39'S
which encompassed most of New Zealand except for the southern half of the South Island.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/55/Australia_history.gif


Colonial NZ lawlessness:

https://nzhistory.govt.nz/politics/treaty/treaty-timeline/treaty-events-1800-1849

"1831 Māori petition the British government
Growing lawlessness among Europeans in New Zealand and fears of a French annexation of the country led 13 northern chiefs
to ask King William IV for his protection. Missionary William Yate helped the chiefs draft the letter to the King. The Crown
acknowledged the petition and promised protection."


Below: Read both sections p.55 " British Sovereignty" and " Treaty of Waitangi" that mention the issue with lawless white sailors
and adventurers, as well as the ongoing problem with lawless white settlers:

https://books.google.com.au/books?i...;q=nz%20colony%20lawlessness&f=false



For that we can all be rather thankful ,for you could not possibly convey important established historical facts about British colonial NZ
that you were blatantly unaware of.

First major thing we discovered about you is your highly embarrassing lack of knowledge of British colonial NZ,
now you try to show readers your analytical military lawyer skills regarding the legal provisions of the British Army Act.





British military law it appears didn't care for the three Boer children shot near Fort Edward...Morant and crew were not indicted on those.

Yet those killings were listed on a letter signed by Bushveldt Carbineers (BVC) at Fort Edward and dispatched to Col. F.H. Hall at Pietersburg.
(written by BVC Trooper Robert Mitchell Cochrane), a former Justice of the Peace from Western Australia, that accused members of the
Fort Edward garrison of six "disgraceful incidents"
Another being the fatal shooting of Reverend Heese of the Berlin Missionary Society... yet Cochrane who drafted the letter
made no mention of the fact, Rev. Heese's driver, a member of the Southern Ndebele people, was also shot and killed.

So there you have it, both British and colonials deciding that some murders of civilians by BVC were worthy of military justice
and others not.

You are half right. The Kelly's did seal their fate at Stringybark creek. The issue is what lead to that? A drunk officer attended the Kelly homestead with a telegram of a Warrant for Dan. That much is agreed on. What is n It agreed on is what followed. Some say Fitzpatrick pulled Ned's sister onto his lap, and Mrs Kelly hit him with a fire iron. Other claim Mrs Kelly told Dan that Fitzpatrick only had a telegram of a warrant, not a warrant and that he didn't gave to go. Hearing this Fitzpatrick pulled his revolver out, and a scuffle broke out. Mrs Kelly hit him with a fire iron, Dan disarmed him and sent him away.

Fitzpatrick now makes a claim that Ned, Dan Mrs Kelly and 2 others were all in the house and that he was assaulted and that Ned fired at him hitting Fitzpatrick in the wrist. This incident is the reason warrants for attempted murder were issued for Dan and Ned.

There are many issues with what Fitzpatrick claimed happened. Firstly, the 2 others who Fitzpatrick claimed to be in the single room hut, Williamson and Skillion couldn't gave been there. Skillion never left the Winton pub, and Williamson was past by Fitzpatrick on the way to the Kelly homestead splitting wood, yet he ran 500 yards unseen and went around the back of the hut removed a slab of bark and got in before Fitzpatrick's horse could trot there. Secondly, Fitzpatrick claims to have been shot, yet the surgeon found no bullet in the wound, and there was no exit.

Kelly was supposed to have fired 3 times at Fitzpatrick and missed twice from about 4 feet. At stringybark creek Kelly was in a tree to tree exchange with Kennedy, and was able to hit him multiple times on the run at 20 and 30 yards. So how did he miss at point blank range?

Its also worth noting that the Kelly's were in the forest panning Gold to pay for a defence lawyer for their mother. The police went to find them, not the other way around.

And as for being a cold blooded killer, why did the only officer to surrender not killed, when Kelly knew he would be giving evidence against him?

Ok so a more or less proud come obstinate Irish catholic career thief family which was fathered by an Irish x-convict,
the sons of which (with a few friends) finally decided to take on the system of corrupt police, land owners and government.

Dishonest unlawful folk taking exception to how other dishonest unlawful folk treat them.

btw: Some reports say Ned copped 19 bullet wounds at Glenrowan, then another says 28 bullet wounds,
what is a person to believe about personal allegations levelled toward the Kellys or police, if people cant
even get that correct.

Neds Jerildrie letter apart from trying to justify his life of crime, makes out he shot the police during the Stringybark Creek
incident , in self-defence...??...but it was Ned who initiated an attack on a police bush camp with guns drawn not the other
way around. If anything the police fired in self -defence response to the raid...but Ned took exception to it and killed them.

As far as McIntyre not being killed along with the other three, I don't know why that is.
Was he possibly not found to be firing at the Kellys?..I read where McIntyre surrendered to the Kelly raid ,while Lonigan fired
his weapon and was killed as result.

McIntyre transcripts:

http://www.police.vic.gov.au/content.asp?a=internetBridgingPage&Media_ID=15107

Yeah but you didn't address why the police were in yhe forest looking for them.

1- plain clothes police existed in those days, at the later Glenrowan siege, there were numerous
plain clothes police involved. It would make sound sense not to be spotted in the bush with police
uniforms when searching for the Kellys or other outlaws/bushrangers.

There are supposedly some p/c police among those standing on Glenrowan train Station here:



This one supposedly shows men from the Benalla contingent, including constable Braken(second left)
and possibly more unidentified p/c police.



Typical p/c police bush patrol with black trackers that would search for outlaws:




2- police had two groups in an attempt to capture both Kellys in a supposed pincer movement tactic.

3- because leathers might be needed to secure outlaws bodies that might well prefer to die rather than be captured.
Im confident they brought irons as well?..or did they not?...The leathers would have also been used by police to
secure any dead police as well ,yes/no? ...Kellys could have potentially killed a number of the 8 police and then got
killed themselves....how many cords did it take to properly secure one body?..and How many leather cords did the
police have with them?..If police had more leather, more ammunition, more guns and more men than needed, is that
really such a strange thing for police on a manhunt to do?,.. or such a big deal?

4- police rashness-incompetence maybe...what advantage is there in purposely not taking warrants
with them, if they in fact have valid warrants?

The police were not simply out of uniform, they were posing as miner. They also carried pretty well as many guns as they could, one patrol even took a shotgun off another group en route. The police were also heard to say they were going to take the flashness out of them. Remember, there were only 2 people as far as the police new.

Still nobody wants to acknowledge that the Kelly's and the police would never have been there 8f Fitzpatrick hadnt lied, and if the evidence pointing to his lies was listened to.

Was it considered unlawful for police to be undercover appearing as miners?
re: police with plenty of guns,
how many guns did the 8 police have? Say an average of three guns each wouldnt
sound too much including pistols , with some shotguns thrown in.

Im thinking I would want more than just one long arm and pistol to rely on,
Id want at least another pistol and/or maybe a scatter gun.

I can't remember what they had. The gro Ip from Mansfield had a pack horse carrying the guns. Remember it was 4 on to 2 as far as the police knew, and the Kelly's only had a revolver and a shotgun. 2 of the gang were not even armed when they first encounted the police.

I don't know if it was illegal for police to be out of uniform, though it was unusual.

I know it's hard to accept now, but I firmly believe the police went to find and kill the Kelly's.

There hasn't been a Royal commision into any other gangs before or since. Also where else did the police, their actions and behaviour result in so many demotions and evictions from the force? If the Kelly's were so bad why did the police agree never to visit the homestead again without a priest? And if they were such police haters why did at least 1 Kelly become a police officer?

Sigh. Yes I know. Everyone in New Zealand knows about this in greater detail than you, its taught in school you great pompous twit.

LOL Mention that you dont like Ned Kelly and listen to them. Dry your eyes petal. You're still white.

So to recap, Breaker Morant was English, Ned Kelly was Irish, please tell me at least that the jolly swagman was a bloody Australian.

Back in the 1970's in the US Army we would watch Breaker Morant as part of Geneva Convention classes! "Sergeant Major!"......"Sir"...... and Code 303 or regulation 303

WTF?
First you say that everything I typed about NZ was false and just made up, now you say all NZ'ders are taugh such in schools.

BTW: the question still stands- what source did you use to make the claim Morant is Aus most lengendary character?

1- Four on Two , The Kelly's had lots of friends and supporters, that was known. Police could not know
if the 2 Kellys would be alone if/when they found them... nothing odd about having more police on ones
team if you are not sure what you will encounter in the remote bush.

2- Police in plain clothes while engaged in searching for outlaws was not that uncommon, such approach
was used by police in the east coast colonies of QLD, NSW, VIC. Here again are more images of p/c police
charged with hunting bushrangers:




btw: The Kelly's at some point in their career of crime on occasion wore police uniforms, Correct?

3- It may well have been the full intent of (some or all) police to kill the 2 Kellys or just a willingness to kill them
if given the slightest reason, but that remains speculative...BUT fact remains the Kellys intently ambushed the
police and killed them.

4-Like the Kellys, It seems Police made serious mistakes and were punished through demotions /ejections
(or the Gov used them as political scapegoats following the Royal Commission findings)..??

5- Neds half -brother John Kelly, probably wanted a more normal straight life. Before joining the WA police,
he worked doing different things, tram motorman , horseman/breaker, was then recruited by a circus for
those skills, this took him around Aus , Sth Africa and Asia. ..John and wife then settled in WA, where he applied
to the WA police mounted section as a horse breaker/riding instructor and he became probationary constable.
..this only lasted 1906-1908 because he rejoined a circus.
He was honored by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and travelled south through the Americas with Barnum
and Bailey's Circus. WW1 broke out and Jack later enlisted in the Australian army, serving in a number of battles
on the Western Front and reached rank of sergeant.
1920s he returned to Argentina and became a highly paid instructor at the famous El Caballo Blanco riding school.
There is no evidence he ever returned to Australia. ... John Kelly died in Buenos Aires March 1956.

https://www.police.wa.gov.au/About-...ed-Kelly-in-the-Western-Australia-Police

Cleary John Kelly knew how to stay out of trouble and lead a fruitful long life. Were not better oportunities in life
also open to Ned and Dan Kelly and Steve Hart and Joe Byrne?

The Kelly's did wear police uniforms at Jerilderie and townsfolk were moved to comment on both the exceptional young men who had replaced the old police, and that the town had never been so quiet😊

What evidence do you gave to support that the police knew that there were 4 and not just the 2 brothers? I maintain they didn't and were gunning for the Kelly's. Seeing as the only one to surrender was unhurt, do you honestly think that that the police would have extended that courtesy to the Kelly's?

You clearly have read up on, tell me do you think it right the sentences handed down to Williamson, Skillion and Mrs Kelly? 11 tears and 7 years hard labour on the word of a drunken copper, and 3 for Mrs Kelly.

The royal commision didnt make scape goats out of anybody. You had the police surounding the Kelly's on the flooded Murray with wet powder and lame horses and they wouldn't advance. Others wouldn't set out before a full cooked breakfast, and was asleep when the Kelly's crossed the bridge at Beechworth where they were vulnerable. Then there were the 4 police who hid under the bed when Aaron sherrit was shot, and the heroic actions of shooting people fleeing the Inn after Ned agreed to let them go. At least 2 were killed by police. Then Fitzpatrick who apparently was overly fond of drink and other mens wives, he started it all, so why not run him out of the force? If he had not gone to the Kelly's as instructed NONE of this would have happened.

1- Police legally going plain -clothes makes you irate, Kellys illegally wearing police uniforms doesn't.
John Kelly being the good police trooper he was, would have likely arrested his own brothers for that.

2- I haven't said the police knew for certain that there were 4. I said its reasonable for police to think that
the 2 popular well liked Kellys may have gained support from others (that may have joined them in the bush )
before police found the two.

3- Huh? Police extend courtesy to the Kellys after they had raided a police camp and shot dead 3 out of 4 police?
what , because they let one live?..I don't think so.

4- As I indicated before, those colonial times( laws, judicial system, fairness, justice, social orders, prejudices)
were certainly different from today, as result life was much harsher than today, especially so for a career criminal family
making themselves 'popular' with police.

Again re: Ned Kelly, Dan Kelly, Steve Hart, Joe Byrne, ...why didn't any or all of them take the better smarter
path in life, like John Kelly wisely did?

Kelly supporters appear to make poor excuses for the poor choices those men made.




Well I wonder, if the evidence you claim you have of that, was stacked up and run through the current high court judicial system,
would it be enough for the courts bench of judges to reasonable decide that police were out to unconditionally kill the two Kellys?

- Police having a stack of(unknown number) of firearms and good supply(unknown number) of leather tethers for
any dead bodies in the event of a shoot-out, just sounds like part of normal preparation for hunting down bands of outlaws.
- Police planning to outnumber the crack shot gifted horsemen outlaws they are chasing sounds more like a smart idea
in the course of their duty, rather than an indication of intent to murder.
- Police in plain clothes and posing as miners sounds like shrewd tactics rather than an indication of intent to murder.
- Police not taking with them the warrants they had, seems pointless and not like an indication of intent to murder.

Thats does not mean there was no intent to murder(in the first degree)the 2 Kellys..but the Westminster criminal justice system
requires one to prove beyond reasonable doubt (i.e.; that no other logical explanation can be derived from the facts except that
the defendant committed the crime) that the accused had such wilful intent or that his actions were based on such.

1) I am not irate, I just think its funny that a band of outlaws were better police than the police themselves. I am not still not 100 percent sure the police were legally out of uniform

2) There were only 2 warrants issued, anybody else is irrelevant. Would this many police armed like that have gone to the homestead to arrest then? Nope.

3) You misunderstand me. I asked if the police had found the Kelly's first and they surrendered, would they have lived? I personally don't think so.

Its funny you mention the Westminster system, where was it when Fitzpatrick lied, when 3 people were jailed, when a judge decided that Ned was guilty and declared he'd give him 20 years? Where was the Westminster system when supposed Kelly supporters had land taken off them?

I am not a rabid Kelly supporter, and I know they were horse thieves, but the police weren't angels in this.

1- Kellys were better police by unlawfully wearing stolen police uniforms ?..how so?...you mean they didn't harass the other
like criminal civilian elements like police did.

" not 100 percent sure the police were legally out of uniform."...Well unless you know for legal fact that those police
being plain clothed was unlawful, then what relevance does it have?...sounds like clutching at straws.

2- two warrants yes, and you can't just say everybody else then becomes irrelevant. When police were looking for bushranger
Harry Powers, Ned Kelly himself then became relevant by association & collaboration with Powers... So warrants for two Kellys
could potentially end up involving any people that then team up with them in the Wombat ranges...you think police would just
ignore any such people because the warrants didn't cover them?...ever heard of , aid and abet and criminal collaboration?

3- Again, I find it merely speculative that the police would have murdered the 2 Kelllys had they found the Kellys first.
again, does 'proof beyond reasonable doubt' ring a bell..?...To me what you have represented as evidence of such,
does not show beyond reasonable doubt...A logically counter-argument can be presented to cast reasonable doubt of
the allegation of premed. murder.

4- Im am analysing and discussing Neds guilt or innocence and police guilt or innocence on the current efficiency model
of the westminster criminal justice system, hence why I mentioned the concept of running your evidence throughout todays
High Court Bench and asked how you think your murder claim may fair through such...dont you think that would be a better
21st century way of assessing Kelly and police ultimate guilt or innocence?...Lawyers have run a modern day law model on
Breaker Morant I believe.

5- You have just reverse what I said much earlier, that the police were corrupt and Kellys no angels themselves...anyway to
be more correct, the Kellys were horse thieves ,bank thieves, stole police uniforms, impersonated police- and were murderers.


And for the 3rd time re: Ned Kelly, Dan Kelly, Steve Hart, Joe Byrne, ...why didn't any or all of them take the better smarter
path in life, like brother John Kelly wisely did?
Ned & Dan Kelly preferred a life of crime that was in regular conflict with corrupt police, but Kelly supporters just like to complain
about what they deem an unfair outcome, despite the fact the Kelly brothers heavily contributed to their own troublesome fate.

1) Normal people who would comment on how fine the new police looked, and made comment that the town was more peaceful hardly seem like criminals that bare the brunt of police attention.

2) Of course there is aid and abet, but the police had no idea there was 4. As for the warrants, how on Earth could they be an oversight? They couldn't arrest them without them, so why not take them unless you didn't plan on using them. Also what about Lonigan killing a Tiger snake on the way out and exclaiming "first blood to us", and the open talk about taking the flashness out of the Kelly's?

4) There has been discussion on the Kelly ttisl and it's fairness. Here is a link http://www.ironoutlaw.com/writings/sixty-minutes-kelly-on-trial/

It's bad when a Victorian chief justice thinks the trial was hopelessly unfair.

5) You are keen to point out the crimes of the Kelly's but not of the police? Why?

I can't answer why Ned, Dan, Steve and Joe didn't live straight lives. I can say that the scheme the Kelly's had going on was lucrative and worked well. I honestly think that if Fitzpatrick hadn't gone to the homestead and then lied about an attempted murder, Mrs Kelly would have gone on selling sly grog, and the others would have been horse thieves and long ago forgotten.

1- What new police?...they were not new or legitimate police , Kellys were illegally wearing and impersonating police -end of story.

2- Police no idea of 4, ...as already stated, its reasonable for police to suspect and plan for such contingency that the Kellys in the
Wombat Ranges, may have teamed up/banded with unknown number of collaborators since it was known they had many friends and
supporters in the region. - Kelly in the past had teamed with bushranger Harry Powers,..Hence 8 police with many guns, a lot of leather
body tethers, etc, seems rationally and reasonably justifiable, and not unquestionable proof that they planned to murder 2 Kellys.

3- I already asked before, so again, What possible advantages would there be, for police to intentionally not bring their warrants with them?
How does it benefit the police exactly ?

4- Wrong!... Ive said numerous times the police were corrupt and also mercenary in nature - and part of the problem.

5- So you won't speculate on Ned, Dan, Steve and Joe choosing a life of crime rather than going 'straight' like John Kelly , but you keep
speculating that police planned to murder 2 Kellys, despite having nothing concrete or definitive to support 'beyond reasonable doubt'.

6 - The Kellys in question were 'lucrative' career criminals, the fact it worked well for them, does not exhonerate their life of belligerent crime.

7- You are speculating when it suites you...but you won't venture into speculation of where Kelly gang members lives would have pathed,
had they much earlier exercised good sense like John Kelly...Reality is they chose a life of crime leading to Stringybark Creek, Siege at
Glenrowan where they held people captive at gunpoint and the inevitable hanging of Ned Kelly for murder.

-- For some reason you pick a point in time like the 2 warrants/Stringybark Creek lead-Up and consequent fallout, to speculate on
unsubstantiated police intentions to murder 2 Kellys. ..and you keep drumming that up...yet you won't entertain any speculation of the
life Choices the Kelly gang members made prior to that, which if better ones were made, had the potential to steer them away from the
fate they suffered, and subsequently less contention and conflict with police along the way...John Kelly prime example.

Since you have repeatedly claimed that police were only ever looking for or expecting two fugitives,
then why would they need the bootmaker to supply a 'heap' of leather straps to tie down bodies?

A demand for such a large quantity by police, would suggest that the police were potentially expecting
to face more than just the 2 Kellys in the course of their duty to secure them.




Kelly spared McIntyre, so Ok, when Kelly was finally captured at Glenrowan, didnt police then extend that courtesy to him?

Seeing that they didn't just pull his helmet off and put a bullet in his skull , then fair to say they did extend the courtesy.

It's not speculation to state that none of this would have occurred if not for Firzpatrick. Without his false accusations, there was no search, no Stringybark creek, innocent people would not have had to do years hard labour.

You want me to speculate on what life the Kelly's might of had if they weren't horse thieves, implying that they would have had no trouble with police. How did being honest work out for Skillion and Williamson? Or even land owners who were merely thought to be sympathetic to the Kelly cause.

Why were there people in the bush waiting behind the Glenrowan inn for a flare be fired, to come down and join in? Where were the public standing in regards to Johnny Gilbert, Ben Hall, Captain Moonlight? The certainly were not aiding them, protecting them and willing to fight with them. Behaving was neither here nor there, police at the time did as they liked and the people finally got sick of it. Why did Ned want to create a separate state for? Because everybody was being treated just dandy in the current one?

1- I haven't asked you to speculate , Im just asking why you refuse to speculate on such, but you will gladly loosely speculate on other matters.

2 - Since John Kelly could avoid trouble with the law and police by making better choices in life, is it not also reasonably possible for Ned, Dan ,Steve, Joe
to do the same or similar ?

3 - Skillion & Williamson, It worked out so that they were not shot 28 times and then hanged in a Melbourne prison....correct?

4 - So Ned Kelly was not only a career thief of horses, collaborator with bushrangers , impersonator of police, Robbing banks, holding civilians hostage at gunpoint,
destroying infrastructure property like telegraph wires/poles and railway lines that didn't belong to him, he was also conspiring on a course of INSURRECTION.

Well if he hadn't been hung for murder of police ,he would have been hung or shot dead for such a serious capital offence under the Crown.
The Crown had enough past trouble with rebelling Irish convicts in the Australian colonies....The Crown crushed and stamped them out...Kelly was an Irish fool.

Are you on drugs lol? Williamson and Skillion got 11 and 7 years hard labour and Redmond Barry said he would have given Ned 20, all over BS incident and with no proof. That's hardly working out well. Can you think why people were upset about things? Sure Ned and the others could have lived different lives, been straight laced, much like the farmers of the Greta region who lost their land for no reason.

If the crown had of hanged Ned for horse stealing there would be no issues. But they didn't and so there are.

Maybe if the English had treated the Irish better there might not have been so much trouble. You can say Kelly was a fool, but history belongs to the victor, and while the police won the battle they lost the war. There were changes implemented after the Kelly outbreak to ensure it didn't happen again, people got a fairer go, crooked and corrupt police were cleaned out, and the Stringybark shooting stung the police.

The discussion of Kelly involves understanding & application of criminal LAW principles -
and such critical applications of 'reasonable doubt' and 'Beyond reasonable doubt'
and an indisputable basis of supporting evidence.

Yet your speculative allegations put forward against police can easily be counter-argued to establish reasonable doubt as to veracity.

POLICE

Primary intent to murder - speculative and reasonably refutable
Leather body straps as evidence of such intent - speculative and reasonably refutable
Many guns as evidence of such intent - speculative & reasonably refutable
8 police as evidence of such intent - speculative and reasonably refutable.
Warrants left behind as evidence of such intent - speculative and reasonably refutable
Plain-clothes illegal - speculative and unverified as unlawful
Posing as miners illegal - speculative and unverified as unlawful

KELLY

Murdering three police - FACT not speculative,
Criminal collaboration with known outlaws - FACT not speculative
Malicious destruction of infrastructure - FACT not speculative
Robbing banks - FACT not speculative
Impersonating police - FACT not speculative
Stealing personal property - FACT not speculative
Armed hostage taking of civilians- FACT not speculative
Conspiring Insurrection through violence - true if judging by what you said about a new 'state'

1- NO proof...You yourself have made a list of speculative unsubstantiated allegations toward police, but complain of others doing the same.

2- Or ended up with a much better life than the Greta farmers, just like brother John Kelly achieved...but that doesn't compute with you.

3- Correct, not hung for horse thieving , shot 28 times and hung for murder of three people.

4- English?...Earlier you said the problem Irish Kellys had was with the Irish police....you even corrected someone on it.








The Kellys wore police uniforms to rob the bank in Jerilderie...any people who thought they seemed uncriminal during such a brazen criminal act,
are not 'normal' people like you claim.

LOL, he was hanged for the murder of 1, and he clearly could not have killed all three. Joe Byrne shot 1, and there is some debate about who actually killed Lonigan, I have read where he might have died from an accidental self inflicted wound as he jumped behind a log. The police mostly were Irish, some were even ex-convicts Redmond Barry was Irish, but they had English masters.

OK so why would police not take warrants, when the know they can't do anything without them, why the custom made body straps, why the talk of taking the flashness out of them, why did Lonigan claim "first blood to us" when killing the snake? I guess they were just poor misunderstood police.

As for no proof about Williamson and Skillion you can not be serious? It's well documented that Barry made the statement about Ned (and he wasn't even on trial, and Barry got to sit on his murder trial somehow). Even Fitzpatrick appologised to either Williamson or Skillion saying he didn't think it would go that way, after being sentenced to years hard labour.

Did you think that the people didn't realise it was the Kelly's until they robbed the bank? Dan was escorting the local policeman's wife around town as she was making preparations for the monthly church service. I guess the whole town must have know what was happening and went along with it.

Well, personally I enjoy the writings and poems of "The Banjo"

Andrew Barton Patterson.

1- Ned.K was leader, instigator and complicit in the murder of all three... irrefutable FACT.

2- FFS man!..Ive asked you numerous times- ' what ADVANTAGE did purposely going bush
without the warrants give the police..???...you keep bringing the point up like a sick parrot,
but can't substantiate how the police supposedly benefited by such decision.

3) Are you serious? ...Ive covered it more than once...your own allegations against police actually
counter and defeat other allegations you make...you are self-defeating and don't even know it.

repeat for you again!...and get an adult to explain it to you...



You have repeatedly claimed that police were only ever looking for or expecting two fugitives,
so Q.-why would they need the bootmaker to supply a 'heap' of leather body straps?

Rational deductive logic indicates that ../ A prerequisite demand for such large quantity by police, would reasonably
suggest police were anticipating the chance they may encounter more foe than just the 2 Kellys in the course of their
duty to secure them...That then casts 'reasonable doubt' to your claim that police though they were only going to find
or encounter 2 x people.

now WHAT don't you understand?

Kelly was NOT a victor..he LOST convincingly...both the war and the battle.
his ultimate intention as you claim, was to secede from the Crown colony and form a new 'independent state'
and do so through armed violent rebellion/insurrection. .He did not achieve such lunatic pipe dream ambition,
not even miserably or remotely close.!! ..He was a dismally deluded loser career criminal(by choice) with bat-crazy
visions of grandeur.

You have for the course of this debate, haphazardly put forward feeble house of cards arguments that remain (for the
overwhelming most part) speculative and unsubstantiated in point and context of criminal LAW...In some cases your
own points counter and self-defeat your other points...You have basically come full circle with yourself to contradict
yourself and now dispute yourself.

There was no advantage in not taking the warrants. They didn't take them because they had no intention of using them. Its pretty simple really. Do you honestly think they forgot them? A party of 4 police were heading bush for days, they remembered to take everything they needed except the 1 thing they needed to legally arrest them. How can they forget that.

How have I contradicted myself?

As for losing, check the record. How many tattoo's and symbols of the 3 police do you see? Where was the last time you saw a memorial to Redmond Barry, Sgt Steele or Thomas Curnow? How many police were demoted or sacked from the police force as a result of the royal commission? How did policing change for the better after the outbreak? Why did the police agree never to visit the Kelly homestead without a priest if they lost?

What don't I understand? I understand it just fine, maybe that's the problem. I can see the faults on both sides, and see how police actions caused the situation.

Again you are speculating on what police intentions were , not having warrants on their persons is not ' beyond reasonable doubt'
that they planned to murder the 2 x Kelly, simply because an intention to murder 2 Kellys didn't require them to leave the warrants in town.

They very well could have carried warrants and murdered the Kellys anyway, had that been their true intention.

It would make good sense to carry the warrants even if the intention was murder...that way they could attempt to claim their actions
as justified in the course of executing their officially charged duty - to apprehend two fugitives under warrant.

OK so why leave them behind? You can't honestly think they forgot them?

Forgot them, or just didnt care enough to bring them, who knows.

Even in our current day and age of police procedures and accountability you think they would know their stuff,
but many either through incompetence or plain disregard, still fail to follow lawfully required procedures in execution of their duties.

Police cases against defendants often get thrown out of court simply due to poor police procedures in investigations & prosecutions.
They slip up on some of the most fundamental points of law, that it makes one wonder how they managed to be so hopeless or attain
the rank & position they have.Judges have rightly chastised and derided police for amateurish and scatter brain efforts in a courtroom.
So consider how loose they are with procedures in the field among themselves...in the 1880s I think police would have been worse.

I agree completely. I have heard of cases being thrown out for things like incorrect dates on warrants. If your job was doing that everyday, you would think that you would be very careful and triple check your work.

CPT,

One of my faves too. A great story and well portrayed in a great film.

As said above, if not for the film, I reckon not many Aussies would know the story.

I can't agree that Morant is one of our best known characters either. Ned Kelly probably is though...

Quite well known.
As a lawyer I have read up on the case carefully. My view is that he was guilty of war crimes. However, I do not believe his case warranted execution. There were many other unrighteous killings in that war- and we must remember it was one in which the British invented the Concentration Camp.
I believe Britain chose to set a colonial example to possibly avoid criticism in the UK that would have been caused by executing a Brit. The political back lash in Australia was considerable, and Britain lost the ability to impose the death penalty upon our servicemen over it.
Incidentally, the man was, whilst an excellent bush poet, balladeer, and horseman, a bit of a rogue, and left debt all the way up much of East Coast Australia!

They were still using it in the 80s. And it was "Rule .303" in reference to the .303 service cartridge, or rule of the rifle. Kind of a significant line in the movie, and the Army Instructors didn't understand thenreference.

Pompous twit, no say it isnt so, an americano knows everything, dont you know.

A mate of mine named Ted Beazley (deceased) was on parade in Germany in the '70's when a British officer wandered on by after inspection, some lout in the ranks yelled "remember the BREAKER", the Poms bitched and whinged but as luck would have it not one of the Australian officers present heard a damned thing.

A self-avowed Englishman, with a British officer commission
in a British regiment [Bushveldt Carbineers] formed in Sth.Africa
and attached to a British column under a British General.

so why do some Australians feel so strong about Morant?

Morant, Handcock and Witton were not Australian
soldiers, as BVC they were British army.

When it comes to justice, one should be aware that
military justice tends to be more defective vs civil
as it can be subject to expediency on active service.

If some feel the way they do about Morant,
how do they feel about that [born in Aus.]
Lieutenant George Raymond Dallas Moor,
who received the Victoria Cross after intentionally
Shooting four of his own men?

btw: while Australia was in the process of gaining
independence from Britain through federation,
many men from the Aus. colonies were volunteering
in the British army to deny Boers their independence.
Roughly near half of all imperial colonial forces
were sourced from Aus.




Record shows they executed a commissioned officer Brit.

Morant is the most or 2nd most legendary Australian character?..where do you draw that conclusion from?
and if it wasn't for the English having their constant hate and mistreatment of the Irish , Kelly might not have
taken exception to it.

If you bother to read up on your British empire Kiwi colonial history, you will find it was the most lawless violent
white settlement in that part of the ocean under the British Empire.- It became so bad because:......... [/quote]

Didn’t William Bligh face off with the garrison for some time while he was on his ship in Sydney harbor after being chased off by some officers? I seem to recall a book where he was trying to get order and the Brit officers had a whiskey gig going. If I recall, he would launch a few cannon balls towards the garrison every once and awhile. He was governor of Australia after the Bounty.... memory may be foggy but Aussie history is something everyone should read....

They call it the 'Rum Rebellion' cause the NSW Corps under
John McCarthur had a lucrative monopoly on the rum trade...
The penal colony of NSW was orig. designed as a subsistence
ecomony where convicts were supposed. to be self-
sufficient and cultivate their daily needs at least cost
to mother England.
There was to be no currency for convicts, but officers, soldiers
and administrative officials had to be paid.. and of course
the free settlers could have their own money. But
the officer's would use their wealth and influence to buy up
the alcohol from visiting ships and trade it on at enormous gain.

Convicts who did their required gov. work hrs for the day
were permitted to do after hrs private work, but many
would not do it unless they got paid in Rum, and who
controlled the rum supply/price/market.?

Settlers had to pay wildly exorbitant prices for rum to get
convicts to work for them, while officers would get
convicts to work on their large land grants by paying
them in cheap rum ... Officers also got convicts to work
on their private lands when they should have been
doing gov.public works projects... So they were milking
it every way they could.

Alcohol virtually became the unofficial currency to
the aggravation of the crown.

Blight appointed as Governor was tasked to fix the 'alcohol economy'
problem.. but what caused rebellion by NSW Corps was not resistance
to alcohol regulation but a combination of other things.

Bligh put the officer's before a local tribunal and also stripped
them of very generous prime land grants previous governors
had given them...the nature of the charges and the findings
meant they were up for the penalty of Capitol punishment...
Thinking they were going to hang they thought they had nothing
to lose by taking their chances with insurrection which is a capitol
punishment offence anyway.

So the actual rebellion was about desperately saving their
own lives rather than about the rum... but it's not wrong to
say the NSW 'Rum' Corps did rebel.

*****
"The COLONY" (1788-1830) by Professor Grace Karskens
covers the details and other interesting things about
the penal settlement.
*****
"BLIGH - Master Mariner" by Rob Mundle
dispels the damaging propaganda and
common accepted myths about Bligh.
*****

Officer John McCarthur was well connected
and Fletcher Christian of HMS Bounty fame
had a well connected attorney brother, so were
able to set narrative in England to their advantage.

Bligh himself had married into the affluent port and
shipping merchant family of Campbell, which had
land and sea operations going in a number places
around the empire including the NSW penal colony.
The contract for convict hulks on the Thames was
held by Campbell and the HMS Bounty captained
by Bligh was purchased from Campbell.

Lt.William Bligh also had connection with the highly
influencial Sir Joseph Banks which helped his career,
but he did earn his stripes as a great naval sea
commander both in combat and in other services
to the crown.

Lt. James COOK (another in connection with Banks)
selected 21 yr old Bligh as master of HMS Resolution,
for his third voyage... Cook and Bligh were the ones
responsible for all the surveying and charting.

When people talk about circumnavigation of Aus.
they will mention Matthew Flinders, but usually
fail to mention naval officer Philip Parker King.

The Aus PM has set aside $7 million (?) for the
replica of Cooks 'Endeavour' to circumnavigate
the whole Aus. continent.

However neither Cook or the orig. Endeavour
were ever engaged in such voyage... LoL.

M. Flinders commanded HMS Investigator 1801
and didn't survey or chart the whole coastline.
He was the second person to do the coast
of what was then New Holland.
Dutch explorer Able Tasman charted the
North coast more than century and half earlier.
P. P. King employed the HMS Mermaid and
HMS Bathurst in his four coastal surveys of Aus.
1817- 1822.

=========+

Anyways this thread has gone from Breaker
to Ned Kelly then capt.Bligh... LoL

Some Australians have even refered to the Breaker
as a "Ned Kelly in Khaki"..