For the mauser custom rifle fans, do you hold rifles built on FN actions (commercial and/or military) in the same regard? They are certainly a lot easier to find "up here" and in decent shape, just not sure they are held in the same regard?

Yes,or at least I do.

Second Ken's statement....
I like the early ones that were single broached.

I prefer the commercial 98 actions that FN built for Husqvarna as their 640 series during the late 1940's and early 1950's.

In the universe of LR 98 military actions, i think that those built by FN between WW1 and WW2 are among the best made military 98 actions in all aspects; manufacturing, materials, fit, and finish. I have a couple of rifles built on the Venezuelan 24/30 actions and think that they are first rate.

I hold FN actions in very high regard. Every bit the equal of a German action. I think the whole C-ring vs H-ring thing is way overblown.

MTdan,
Agreed, it's a personal thing.
But, once you take that first step away from original you wind up with that ugly Browning bolt release.....
And then you go to the Dark Side into the Remington Empire.....

Fair enough. FN lost their way as soon as they started making their actions push-feed.

I like the C-ring actions with the charger guide and thumb cut best, but I own several solid wall commercial FN actions and all have been excellent

I'm inclined to agree with you. My two major builds are on H ring FNs. They work just fine.
Paul B.

What do you like about having a charger guide and thumb slot on a sporting rifle, particularly one with a scope installed on it?

When Husqvarna was looking for a way to improve the SR 1894/1896/38 series actions for sporting rifles, they "strengthened" that action design by eliminating the thumb slot in the left receiver rail. I don't know if omitting the thumb slot made any significant difference in the strength of the action or if it was a marketing ploy, but they did that on their SR 640 series rifles.

I love picking up the FN 98's Sears brought in their Models 50 and 51, sometimes Sears guns don't command a very high price.

It's just an aesthetic preference. For a scope, they're not an asset.

I fell into a C-ring almost by accident. The auction description mentioned the 1948 date, and by golly, it was one of the "good ones", with the FI logo on the receiver. My Husky was also advertised as a 1948, but not sure where that came from as it's not marked as such, and it's double-broached. No biggie either way. Great rifles, my overall favorites in fact. I don't even mind the slide-off floorplates and wing safeties, although the latter make bolt disassembly a bit of a pain compared to the military ones.

I paid $600 for the FI, and "took a shot" at $375 on the Husky with a 4x Lyman Perma Center and nailed it. Both are excellent shooters.

Also if you can find a 1909 Argentine action made by dwm. Those are very well made and finely. finished

The issue with the C-ring cut was one of gas control. You lose that with the double broaching. The thumb cut was great for military use ( fast loading of sporters also ) but brought about the need for the guide on the bolt. It would also allow gas to divert. The flange on the bolt shroud was supposed to deflect the final bit of any gas from case rupture.
All fine points of German design.
Hot loads weren't considered. Early smokeless and tropical temperatures were.
While a Remington 700 handles gas better than any bolt action, it wouldn't survive a week on the battlefield.
Deflecting gas?
Look at a High Wall, Ruger 1, or even an Encore.....

Posted this pic many times before, but here’s my Husqvarna 146 I rechambered to 9.3 x 62 ctg.



And here’s my 146 that I left in 9.3 x 57 ctg.



Both produced in 1938. Nice FN 98 actions. I’ve taken both nilgai and elk with the x 62. I have that nice new 1.5 x 5 Leupold on it now I got from old son. I really need to work up a new load for this old war horse.

Folks use the term "strength" a lot without any real context. How is it "stronger"? Omitting the thumbcut still leaves the receiver about as stiff as a wet noodle.

I like the charger hump on open sight rifles, I prefer it removed or the FN Commercial bridge for scope use. But I do have a few Mausers that have the charger hump and are scoped.

A question...what strength is needed in that area when the pressure is on the front ring ?

Not many of those here in Canada.

There's still a few JC Higgins kicking around. I had this one show up this week for a project. The safety will be replaced but even so, the factory safety is much more useable than the old wing safety.

When you want to get rid of the FN safety I can use it....

With the thumb cut its a bedding issue. Not much difference really than one without it.
If bedding isn't correct and the screws aren't to torqued properly the action can twist, bend, etc so then it's possible to put pressure on the bolt affecting the seating if the bolt lugs.
In other words accuracy suffers....

That was a nice surprise I wasn't expecting on this rifle. Probably too much hassle getting this into the States. The US border cops always ask if you are bringing anything in with you.

Mail???

Both of my rifles have that safety. Not the fastest with a scope, and as mentioned a pain to disassemble compared to an M70-type, but on an iron-sighted rifle your thumb can disengage it almost like an exposed hammer, though it ain't quiet! I prefer it to the Buehler and clones as well.

I overloaded an H ring FN, no problem. www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/9783854/1

Some changes since those photos. Now in a McWoody Classic Edge, 2.5-8x32 Conquest in Talley's. 23" Shilen #2.

DF

Nice rifle ........ What brand R&B are those?

Talley

DF

Thanks ....

Pat:
Frank DeHaas has a large interesting FN section in his book "Bolt Action Rifles." It is as good as any.

fwiw:
The FN commercial is as good as a mauser action as made for a build or the sporter as is. Most FN commercials lend themselves well to 06 length cartridges, are drilled and have a modern safety & trigger while many of the older military mausers are set-up from the get-go for the 8x57mm length. Post war FN used up their military stock and they also did custom orders. Firearms International sold the FN Deluxe as alternative to gunsmith produced conversions and so there are some interesting and desirable variations. Later came the FN Supremes in the late 50's and the Brownings by 1960 as well as others.

All were beautifully finished and imho, preferable to gunsmith conversions as general rule of thumb. For 06 length cartridges I tried to get my hands on Brownings for the actions that were relatively cheap as they had poor stocks ( a while back...). The Browning has the excellent M-70 trigger clone, and personally I prefer their rendition of the bolt release. Like many on the board have done a few military actions too, from the 1930's to early 1940's for the 57mm cases. Generally unless you want a 57mm length magazine, the myriad of military actions can hide more issues and will cost more for a build.

I also think the C ring thing is a moot point. Any rifle can be overloaded--we were all young once and the population has a given percent of idiots as a constant. For any older action, check for lug set-back.

**

Kaywoodie: what is the story behind the side mount on the 146? Looks interesting...

I'm not the devilishly handsome and erudite Kaywoodie, but I do know a tiny bit about that side mount, so I will post it in the hopes more details will be added by somebody else - perhaps even Kaywoodie, if he isn't busy eating pie on this Father's Day. :-)

That is the standard mount you see on all these old rifles here in Sweden.

This mounting system is rock solid but, as you might expect from its height, means that the shooter has no cheek support. Thus, you also see a lot of stocks where a gunsmith has cut into the comb and added a piece of wood, refinishing to leave a Monte Carlo stock.

Many Swedish hunters have been hoodwinked in to thinking a modern Win-Rem-Ruger is a better rifle, so resale value on these old rifles is quite low. One can sometimes pick up one of these fine lightweight rifles with this mount for the equivalent of $US 140. (not a typo, the equivalent of one hundred forty US bucks)

This price often includes a cheap scope from the 1950's as well - a total period piece!

I've looked at 4 or 5 of these mounts quite carefully, and if they have a stamp or manufacturer name it must be hidden when mounted because I've not seen one.

There might even be more than one manufacturer -- the bluing seems to vary a lot, or perhaps the variation happened after the mount was made.

Cheers from Sweden,
John

Appreciate it John.

Lots of hoodwinking going on here, too. We call it marketing...:)

Are they screwed & pinned into the side rail like the vintage German mounts?

jpb,

Many of the Swedish rifles for sale here feature the holes in the side rail, but not the mounts, so go for a reduced price because the holes have to be filled for cosmetic reasons. kaywoodie's are the first I've seen that still had intact mounts. Just like the old rascal to come up with TWO nice rigs, when the rest of us can't even find one!

tomk: thanks for the info.
Lots of good info coming forth on this thread, a nice change!

Simpson's must be a prime hoodwinker, given that they import old rifles from Sweden in CONEX container lots..

www.simpsonltd.com

I have a 1960's vintage Remington 760 in 30-06 that came back from Sweden via Simpson's. It has a dozen or so decals on the stock that I understand are tags/licenses for hunting moose/elk and Capercaillie. Kind of a neat old rifle, one of those too good not to buy deals.

Sometime between 1967 and 1972 my Father had an 1896 Swedish Mauser sniper rifle with a high side mount and an Ajack scope. I failed to appreciate it for what it was and when I was interested in it, he had given it away to somebody.

Certainly Pat.

Maybe some nice elderly widow lady will ask you to to take that old Felix Funken signed FN Deluxe off her hands so she can buy her granddaughter a new pink bolt action 22...:)

“I'm not the devilishly handsome and erudite Kaywoodie”

I’m not that guy either! 🤣

I always thought they were just surplus Swedish military mounts. I had an old Model 96 back in the day (1974?) that was still full military with one of those mounts and a 3 post sniper scope on it. Like a 2X. Only difference is these mounts have been retrofitted with 1” rings. I believe one set of rings on one of these rifles are steel. And the other pair are anodized aluminum.


Edit
Btw, those mounts are QD. One still has the rail QD levers on it for scope removal. The other has wing nuts fitted to it! LOL! Really!!! Wingnuts!!!!

Edit edit!

One of my most memorable hunts! And one of my fav pics. The x62 second season Colorado Rifle 2010.

That'll do...

For sure...

DF

I sure like that pic too kaywoodie!

Thanks.

That is what they look like --the vintage German sniper mounts. The 3-post (#1) was right popular with both the Germans & Russians. QD for removing the scope.

Nice bull, eh...:)

I have a 7x57 AI built on a 1914 FN action.

hi Tom

Hmmmmm, I don't know.

I never took one of these mounts off an action, so I will have a good careful look for pins the next time somebody brings one of these to the range! I will try to get some good pictures to post as well!

I do recall the finely-machined longitudinal dovetail that mated the top part of the mount (i.e. the one with the rings) to the bottom part, complete with recoil stop.

I'm sure they would maintain zero when removed and replaced very well -- not only was there a very positive integral recoil stop, but the longitudinal rail was a very tight fit.

Given the fogging tendency of the scopes which were readily available in the 1950's, I think hunters demanded a mounting system which would shoot to the same point of impact after removal and replacement. Alternatively, maybe the average hunter simply didn't trust these new-fangled optical sights!

John
PS: My comments are regarding the all-steel mounts, not the aluminum ones

Interesting stuff --how many recent improvements were improved long ago...

I don't have one but it sounds like the WWI-WWII stuff. A sniper could take the scope off and put it in a belt case. Some had three screws and some had an additional pin(s) to hold the mount solid under battlefield conditions. Lots of variations as non-military smith work was acceptable...:)

Headed out for a week...or so. If you don't mind the thread drift, Pat, will try to get a pic up when I get back--unless someone has one and does first.

I pulled out my old copy of his book when this thread started and reread that chapter. That book is a treasure trove of information.

Tomk,

Here’s a photo of both of my mounts. The mounts on both are simply held onto the rail with screws. Sorry for pic quality. I cannot photo anything well in the house.

No pun intended .......

Every FN I've dredged up has wound up a fine shooter without action issues. That includes the Huskys. They are a good bet and yes, you should esteem them.

Type IV, standard length, small ring, small shank, long magazine.
Action OAL: 8.750
Recvr screws, center to center: 7.835
Bolt body length: 6.370
Magazine length: 3.400
Recvr ring dia: 1.300 small ring
Barrel shank dia: .980 small shank

These are mainly commercial models, they are identical to Type II, with the exception of a longer magazine to handle 30-06 length cartridges. Main examples are the Husqvarna commercial action, and the Brno ZG47.


Type V, standard length, large ring, large shank, long magazine.
Action OAL: 8.750
Recvr screws, center to center: 7.835
Bolt body length: 6.370
Magazine length: 3.400
Recvr ring dia: 1.410 large ring
Barrel shank dia: 1.100 large shank

This is a beefier version of the Type IV. It is typified by the late FN commercial actions.

The brno zg47 is a large ring, the earlier brno 21/22 are small ring.

As I understand it, "commercial FN actions" were made after WWII. They should all benefit from having best alloying for strength. Not exactly sure when the date was, but prior to sometime in the early 1930's, "Mauser 98" actions didn't have stronger alloy metallugy.

The strength of the "Mauser action" was due to it's design, not metallurgy. I hope someone hops in to help, but I believe WWI era actions were softer than WWII ( or late 1930's ) actions.

Note I intermixed "FN" and "Mauser 98" actions, which covers A LOT of ground.

Bottom line, when did metallurgy advance for that action, which would give a well-designed action even great strength by improved alloys? Post-WWII commercial FN actions benefited from modern alloying, so that is a good starting point for comparison.

Consider all the issues with Springfield 1903 actions regarding heat treatment and alloys. It wasn't untill Townsend Whelen got to Springfield Armory in the early 1930s, when the highest quality 1903 actions were made regarding higher strength metallurgy and consistent heat treatment. If you pinned me down to get a specific year when it happened, it was at least 1934, maybe 1933.

PERHAPS, German-based Mauser 98 and Belgian-made FN actions were on similar timetables.

I'm down to 3 "Mauser rifles":. all are commercial FN actioned sporters (2 are JC Higgins model 50 -based rifles). I hold them in high regard. Hard to believe you can buy one about $500, considering the quality of design, materials used, machining, etc. No aluminum or plastic. Just blued steel and walnut rifles. Classic looks, and great strength for pride of ownership.

I have owned post 1934 Springfield 1903 sporters, and pre-64 (and BACO / FN-So. Carolina made) Win m70 rifles ( still have 2). The commercial FN 98 is right up there (and better than the 1903 >>better firing pin and no "volley fire" lever).

Taking this post one step further, I really like Win m70 actions made at the South Carolina FN plant for Browning Arms Company (BACO) made ~2007-2012. The m70 action is a "Mauser 98-based" design ( good design), with the most modern metallurgy. You then combine those features with modern manufactering using CNC methodology with ISO 9001 standards at a modern defense contractor facility, and you have my favorite action that has tight tolerances for jewel-smooth precision feel when you work the action.

To finalize and answer the OP's question, the commercial FN actions with claw extractors are MIGHTY nice.

Woodie:

If you are still on this thread--sorry about the response time...

On p.182 & 183 of "The German Sniper 1914-1945" there is a pic of the Swedish side rail mount with three screws fastening it to the receiver of a Swedish Model 1941 Sniper rifle. That particular one had a single front locking lever for scope on/off.

I would imagine the double locking lever is an improvement over the single. Appears keeping the receiver mount rail & scopes intact during battle conditions required refinements like additional screws, locking screws and pins.

Maybe the wingnuts are a custom conversion...:)

**
Experienced hunters and the non-military gun trade were the original primary providers of men and gear for sniping. No mention of the original innovators of the rail mount that I came across in the book (may have missed it) but in Germany anyway, it does say this about the short side rail system:

"Adopted by the Third Reich for special applications during the mid-30's, the short side rail variation of the Karabiner 98k was originally intended for police work during civil strife (riot control)."