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Second rate coatings ? The very best, the Zeiss and Leupolds, test at 95%. The average for all other makers usually runs about 92% for their fully multicoated optics. That 3% difference means nothing when compared to what a larger 50-56mm scope will do for you with more magnification. Try 20% closer to your target.
There was a time when this was much more significant than it is today. Back when Leupold's VariXII/III, for instance, were single coated, it would make some difference. You are looking at 84-86% vs. vs. 93-94% back then. Not hard to see that difference. E

Numbers always look nice but lupie is noted for second tier glass and coating.If you had actually spent any real trigger time behind a euro.You'd know that.Theres no big rush of euro hunters lining up to buy lupies.Theres a reason.All you have to do is look.
dave

I understand Leupold's only problem these days is to make enough scopes to meet the demand for them. They out sell all the euros combined by a wide margin according to those who sell them.
I'm sure you guys do see a difference. The trouble is you don't understand what you are seeing. It ain't glass or coatings differences. BTW, I have looked. E

No, the deal is there is a much smaller market share for Euro's and this is because the higher end niche they play in. Not unlike more middle class people than upper class. But the glass/coatings whatever are better on many of the Euro's compared to Leupold, ain't rocket science to figure that out and you're to stubborn to realize it.

Chevy sells a lot more cars than Mercedes but just about any fool who drives both can tell you which one is nicer. Just about any fool can tell which scopes are better by looking through them but apparantly there are exceptions .................DJ


BTW I drive a Chevy..

Oh brother. So much for this thread.

Understanding what we are seeing is precisely the problem. It's the point of the whole thread. When you can't with "Scope A" but you can with "Scope B" under the same poor conditions, no post from you is going to change that. Even VX-III's (don't know about VX-7's, but they're out of the price range) with the latest and greatest coatings will be "Scope A" when compared against many others--even the same power with the same sized objective. I've seen it with my own eyes, it is what it is. Your posts won't change that.

I have done a fair amount of night coyote hunting in sage brush and found an 8x56 Kahles Helia and a 3x12x56 Zeiss Diavari set on 8x to be very satifactory. The 56 mm objective is a difference maker, both had 4A reticles that I like a lot. The two were hard to tell apart, but I'd be inclined to go with a fixed 8x56 of good manufacture and although I really don't like lighted reticles, I would lean that way if buying new, especially the tiny dot style in the center of the 'hairs.

ED

I too have done a fair bit of night coyote hunting.
I used a set of Minox BD 8x58 BR bino's that worked fantastic with any kind of moon. The problem came when trying to shoot, the best I used was a Nikon Gold 2.5-10x56 with Ger#4. Even it struggled resolving a coyote in a tree line or brush.
I think most that have hunted without light at night would agree, a lighted reticle don't mean dick, It's the resolution, and you can't get it from a reticle.
Were I to gear up again, it would be as someone mentioned above, high quality (not conquest), Euro glass, fixed 8x56.
They are oddball glass in this country, and can be bought reasonable on e-bay. Don't skimp, it is the one piece of gear that can't be too good on night coyote.

I would have never thought you would have actually typed that out...



sawbuck,
I honestly don't give a rat's posterior what the other guy uses OR believes is the ticket in hitting his target. That said, if you are truely interested(and that is a big if), you really should look at the latest generation of illuminated reticles. I've found some that actually hinder the affair, however, a properly designed illuminated reticle with a proper rheostat can make for a deadly combination...ymmv & imho.

fwiw,
As to the thread I can't think of much to recommend that fits Hack's Budget or will fit his platform. OTOH Lightforce, a part of Nightforce, makes the best spotlights in the industry and sets them up for calling. If you can't see him through the scope put a little light on the subject...

Regards, Matt.

It's obvious that Sawbuck has never hunted with a GOOD lighted reticle. Like Dave7mm said you have to be able to turn the reticle brightness down far enough that it doesn't bloom out your vision. This is one spot where the S&B is superior to NF the NF is harder to adjust and can't really be done on the hunt.

Though Sawbuck is ignorant of how useful a lighted reticle can be he is correct that resolution is extremely important, You can't hit what you can see. But you can't aim with a reticle you can't see either......................................DJ

There it is....

Yep, I'm sure you're right.... most folks are just too stupid to understand what they actually see with their own eyes.

But, you have looked through THEIR scopes, and through THEIR eyes, and you understand it all perfectly.

Wow......

If I wanted a scope for this purpose, I'd be looking at the BEST Euro I could afford. Those folks practice and understand night hunting,and I see no sense in re-inventing the wheel...

I'm a confirmed Leup user when it comes to big game hunting and have found them to be just fine for any rational application. But having used some Euro's over the years and spent my time and money looking through them, my eyes DO see a difference in the quality glass on Swaros, Zeiss, etc(especially the 30mm scopes). And for off-beat situations like night-time predators, I'd invest on the big Euro side.

All I can say, is buy what you can afford for the clearest view, if you think that the Euros are the way to go and can afford them get 'em. No reason to knock leupy's they are a damn good scope that works just fine in low light situations. Only thing that makes a good night shot easier is a NOD, thats it in a nutshell. Spend the money, especially if you are selling the pelts. Les

Actually Matt brings up a good point. All of the better night hunting, predator hunters I know use a light for their hunting. The trick is to shine the light over them and pick up just the eye shine. Then drop it on them when the shooter is ready to shoot. BTDT. Don't need much in the way of fancy scopes for that. Any 6X is just fine.
What JJ is concerned here about is seeing with his scope what his binoculars or spotting scope already shows him. More magnification with a larger objective is the way to go.
Again, I know what I'm talking about concerning the euro vs. Leupy glass coatings from two sources. One, they lab test so close as to be no real difference. Two, I can see alot more than they can with their Lepys. And here is the clincher. When I refocus their scopes for them, so can they. E

Well there are the ignorant, as in lacking knowledge, unaware of, or not having experience.
Then there is the totally delusional that thinks he's some sort of Leupold Focusing God, it's almost sad...........................................DJ

I have the whole lightforce scope mounted lighting system already. It's just awkward to pack around, great near the truck, or from a dedicated blind though!

I'm liking the idea of the 8X56. I doubt I will be shooting much beyond 200-250 yards in the near dark. 8 Power at that range with a bright (brighter) view is certainly the right way to go. If I could find an affordable 3-12 X56 that is a good sounding option as well.

If this were for my big game hunting, money making business, the cost would be less relevent. However in this situation its just stinking coyotes. I'm not exactly anxious to spend a bunch of cash on this entertainment for my evenings.

Les: Everything in the safe right now reads "Leupold".....

JJ wrote " The Crosshairs seem workable although not great. It's the contrast issue between coyote and brush that needs some help."


This is the exact problem with night coyote hunting I have encountered many times. Lights are not legal here.
If there is enough light to spot a yote with binos, rest assured, you can still make out reticles commonly installed in 56mm scopes.
It's seeing the coyote through a riflescope that gets iffy.
If understanding the actual roadblocks through experience, makes me ignorant through your eyes, feel free to elaborate on how an illuminated reticle will solve JJ's problem.

Here ya go JJ,

http://cgi.ebay.com/Schmidt-Bender-...VQQtrksidZp1638.m118.l1247QQcmdZViewItem

Sawbuck, Have you actually used a High-End 30mm scope such as a S&B with a lighted reticle in low light conditions? I think not, which is why I defined Ignorance as not having experience with - it just sounds like you haven't used one because if you did you would see that a good lighted reticle can make a difference.
You are dead on correct that higher resolution is also critical, fortunately both issues Resolution and seeing the reticle are solved with a good S&B/Zeiss/Swaro scope with a lighted reticle.
For years the Euro scopes led the trend with low light scopes with 8x56's with fat reticles, this is of course because they are allowed to hunt at night. I think if you will start checking into the trends that European scopes are following you will see that more and more of them are using lighted reticles. An 8x56 with a 4a or 7a reticle was the old state of the art. The new state of the art scope would be about the same scope (or maybe a variable) but with a lighted reticle. Maybe Roe Deer would be kind enough to comment here. He could tell more about European scopes trends than about anyone else here......................................DJ