Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters MOA "Myth"?

What makes a MOA gun? It seems that almost everybody here has better guns than I. They all seem to shoot MOA. I have two VSLs, a 308 and a 7-08, that will usually shoot sub 1" groups at 100yds. My peronal best is a .23" three shot with the 7-08. I consider these legitimate 1" guns, not 1/4". My Mausers, a 308 and a 30-06 both shoot most H/Ls between 1, and 1.5". I have shot sub 1", but I consider them sub 1.5. Once I reached this consistancy at acceptable(close to factory specks) FPS I really stopped trying. How do you "classify" your guns? Thanks, capt david <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Most of my guns are capable of shooting 3-shot groups under an inch with certain handloads. A couple are not, and their inch-and-a-half or so groups are just fine for hunting. Tinkering with a rifle and trying various loads to get the best possible group is just a hobby for me. A MOA is not needed for most of my big game hunting.

Accuracy from the bench is lost in the field unless you have the "bench" with you in the field. Most hunters don't practice enough for field shooting. How do I classify my firearms? Good enough. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

lets throw out the hole moa term, to me it means nothing. i could care less what moa is as far as hunting is concerned.


heres what my rifles will do.
22/250 with 50gr vmaxes, 3/4"-1" consistant, .5" and smaller on semi consistant bases.
25.06 id call this 1" gun, with pretty much all my hand loads ive been able to grab loads from nolser and hornadys manuals and push 75-100gr bullets at an 1" or better. it also pushes some facotry ammo to that 1" marks but with most going 1.5".
270win, probly around 1.5" its been awhile since i sqeezed the trigger on it.
270wsm, this is my fits gun, or im givin it the fits. ive just recently got my groups down to 1.5" consitant shooting facotry ammo.

i love shooting groups smaller than 1" but i know its not necisary, it was never necisary when i was 12years old shooting the 270win, why should it be now.???? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> depending on the range you could get by with as much as 3" groups at 100yds. with 3" groups id call this 200yd rifle where groups would then be in the 6-8" range.

recently through reloading and varmiting ive been drivn to like the 1" and smaller better so i tend to hunt with rifles i know i can punch those kinda groups on paper with.

i tend to gain or lose alot of confidence in rifles while shooting on paper, wich is my own fault. a rifle i cant shoot constintant 1" groups with tends to get left in the safe for the hunting and varmiting season, even though it is capapble of shooting better if i was.


Evan

I call a gun a MOA gun if I fire several groups(at least five) and the average is MOA or less.If the average is 1/2MOA I call the gun a 1/2MOA gun.I do not use one or two groups to rate a guns accuracy yet many people call a gun a 1/2MOA gun if it has fired even one such group.

A one inch rifle will keep all it's shots inside a one inch circle. For a hunting rifle I will accecpt three shot groups then letting the barrel cool. For heavy barreled prairie dog rifles I want ten shots to stay inside 1/2 inch.

What would you call a rifle that puts it's first shot from a cold barrel into the same bulet hole, on the same target, three times on three different weekends. That's right, one week passes between shots. And to make it worse; I removed the barreled action from the stock to clean it between the first and second shots with no change of POI whatsoever.

With the loads it likes that 25-06 will shoot into a 1/2 inch anytime with some groups going into 1/4 inch. That's what I call a quarter inch rifle with a half inch shooter pulling the trigger.

Sure, a rifle that groups into 2 inches will make a good deer rifle. But you won't hit many prairie dogs with it at 400 yards.

I have been shooting and handloading for more than 20 years. Before I took up long range prairie dog shooting I only thought I knew how to shoot. Now, I don't own a rifle that won't shoot MOA or better. So I guess I have a cabinet full of "Myths".

Everyone has different expecatitions and different standards they are willing to accecpt. And there is nothing wrong with that.

I have shot sub 1" groups with my three hunting rifles but I don't "class" them as sub MOA rifles. I cannot shoot 1/2" groups all the time and accept it. Once I settle for a proven load in that given gun, I practice shooting. If I varry between .75-1.25" off the bench, imagine what my variations will be offhand! I don't sweat 1/4-1/2" variations either way.

IMO, MOA rifles start with a good foundation and the ammunition almost always must be tuned to each particular rifle. I think that the barrel and stock have the most influence on accuracy potential. As much as I like the quality of a custom barrel, I have plenty of factory Husqvarna, Marlin, Remington, Ruger, and Winchester barrels that will shoot good groups. It has always amazed me how a good stock will contribute to a rifle's potential. That is one of the reasons why I really like the Remington 700 LSS MR stocks for my Remington 700s. I like the pattern and, more importantly, they are stable and rigid.

I don't think that there are many "box stock" MOA rifles and there are few shooters who can squeeze that accuracy potential out of a rifle, maybe 5%, maybe less.

Jeff

I've told you how my guns shoot. I consider my guns much more consistant than I. I'm a liter a day coffee drinker. We shoot early in the morning. I shoot better with less coffe! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> capt david <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I've found this to be especially true with my iron sighted rifles. I'm sure somebody can come up with an explanation as to why. My .22 mag pump doesn't shoot well from the bench. Perhaps more accurately, I don't shoot it well from the bench. But shot off-hand, this rifle is hell on groundhogs out to around 100 yards. Benching a gun is only part of the equation unless, of course, the rifle is a dedicated BR piece.

It is not uncommon that a light hunting rifle that will shoot, say, a 2" 5-shot group will shoot the FIRST SHOTS from many different groups, each fired from a cold barrel, into a smaller group.

Most of you guys have forgotten more about shooting and building rifles than I will ever know! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I am lucky and have a couple of rifles that shoot decently, I'm just not cut out for bench shooting. Seems on a good day I can always get two bullet holes to touch, but NEVER the third, it always seems to be anywhere from .25 to .75 away! But I don't spend an inordinate amount of time on the bench, just when sighting in a new scope or working out a new load. I spend way more time on the ground shooting off my pack, shooting prone, kneeling and offhand, none of the groups I get that way are impressive, in fact they are downright ugly, but can usually get them in a 7-8 inch circle (prone being the exception, tightens em down a lot) but I still manage to kill game. My goal is to get where I can shoot 4" groups from any position at 100 yds. I may be an old man before that happens offhand. Still I have been incredibly lucky to bring home all the game I have shot at, but 300 yards is a long shot for me. 1ak

I can get most of my rifles to shoot MOA with three and often five shot groups. Problem is I'm not always a MOA shooter. Sometimes its there and sometimes its not. If I am in one of my periods when I am shooting regularly those MOA groups show up much more often. I would agree such grouping ability is not really necessary for most hunting but I certainly gain confidence knowing my equipment is up to it and I enjoy working toward the goal with a given rifle and load. Right now I am having a lot of fun with a Remington Sendero in 7mm Ultra Mag and a Model 70 Classic Super Grade in .338 Win Mag. Both are holding MOA out to 500 yards when I do my part.

I think I may have learned the secret last week, watching about half a dozen hot long-range shooters use, of all things, Leica laser range-finders. Their technique was simple � put the thing to your eye, take a reading, announce a range � "528 yards," say � and lower the range-finder.

When I tried to range on good, clear objects like boulders and ditch banks, I took several "shots" and got several different distance readings for each of the same fixed "targets." The differences were sometimes as great as 10 yards or more.

Taking just one reading seems to have its merit for giving you confident assurance that you know the distance, right down to within three feet � the level of confidence that Mark Twain described as "the calm confidence of a Christian with four aces."

Applied to shooting, the same technique of shooting just one shot would surely guarantee teeny li'l "groups" 'way under one minute of angle. And you can be sure that no other one-shot "group" with that rifle will ever be any bigger. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I like Ken Howell's method on "tight groups" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. I've see it at deer camp before, BANG!..."yup, it's good, about a 1/2" hight and mayb 1/4" right". Deer didn't know any difference.

Do many of you find that a lot of shooters seem to um let us say embellish the size of their groups?? A group of shooters talking about group sizes will start out at the 1 MOA mark and as the conversation wears on the average discussed size will start to shrink. Do most of you take these claims at face value? What is your criteria for sorting the wheat from the chaff with these conversations?

"What is your criteria for sorting the wheat from the chaff with these conversations? "

A fifth of vodka! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

To me a good shooting rifle will group 3 shots under 1" @ 100 yards consistently, meaning five three shot groups last month , yesterday, today, tomorrow etc. etc..

If a rifle won't do that after I've used all makes of powders, bullets, primers, and seating depth, trigger adjustments, bedding etc., then I get rid of it, I have no use for a bolt action rifle that won't shoot less than 1" groups.

My current hunting guns all shoot 1/2" 100 yard groups consistently with several select loads for each, I've sold off 4 rifles in the past 6 months 'cause they wouldn't shoot less than 1 1/2" @ 100 yards, they were pretty guns too but I couldn't stand 'em cause of poor accuracy and got tired of reloading ammo for them.

Proman1, Anytime you get ready to get rid of one ove those Culls, cheap, let me know. What do you hunt that you need 1/2 moa for, or is it just a paper thing? capt david <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well Capt'n, I know you just pokin' fun but it is just a phase I'm going through, first it was the velocity viper that bit me, nowadays it's that and accuracy venom flowing in my veins.

The last rifle I just sold was a Rem. M700 300 SAUM , after months of tinkering with it it only produced 1.5 " 3 shot groups @ 100 yards with a lot of powder and bullets wasted I finally gave up and rid myself of it. The guy that bought it also got the scope bases/rings, dies, about 60 pcs. of brass and 20 rnds. of ammo for a little less than the cost of a new rifle, that rifle is less than a year old so I suppose he got a good deal.. I'll be using that $ to get a Hart bbl and have a 6.5 RUM chamber cut into it..


I like to the call the shot when I'm out hunting and expect to hit precisely where I'm aiming at, any rifle that groups over an inch is not capable of that kind of demand especially at extended ranges.

My current hunting rig is a 7.82 Warbird that shoots the way I would like all my rifles to shoot, 180 grn. Accubonds into 1/2 " and better groups at a chronographed velocity average of 3520 fps.

Last year I dropped a spike bull moose with my previous fave load consisting of a 180 grn. Swift A-Frame slipping out at 3474 fps, that load also consistently groups 1/2 " @ 100 yards.
I called the shot and didn't concern myself about it 'cause I knew where it went.