Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters I'd Like for Mule Deer to Address This One...

First, I am new to this forum, and I am willing to say I am impressed in several ways. Let's leave it at that. So hello all.

Here's the issue I would like John to sling some ink at...

So many times over the years I have heard people say things like "that .250 Savage is a great deer cartridge" or "I'll never use a .243 on deer again---it's worthless!"

Horse manure.

Of all the things that matter when a projectile is launched at a living target, the moniker by which the cartridge is known is least important. Who cares if it was fired by a 7x57 or by a 7mm STW??

All that matters is the bullet itself (construction, weight, etc.), where it hits the target, and at what velocity. Am I not correct? It just seems to me like heaping praise on the .300 Weatherby chambering after a particular hunt is a bit misleading when the truth is that perhaps a .300 Savage might have done exactly the same job just as well.

I recognize that a given cartridge has characteristics that are certainly worth discussing, but to label or endorse it as a marvelous game-getter just misses the mark somewhat, in my opinion. I think it matters far more to consider the bullet itself, its velocity at the target, and where it hits when speaking of hunting.

The cartridge is an essential part of the picture, and one of the most interesting aspects of shooting, hunting, handloading, and what have you, and certainly worth discussing, but once the bullet's in flight, it has forgotten where it came from.

What I am trying to say is that this is why the "lowly" 7mm-08 is a useful hunting cartridge, and has no need to be a 7mm STW. It's all about the bullet itself, where it hits, and at what velocity (the key being that the velocity suits the intended use of the bullet).

When talking about a cartridge or chambering, its inherent qualities (accuracy potential, velocity potential, etc.) ARE important, but terminal ballistics and killing power are subjects I believe are far more dependent on the bullet itself.

There. I am done now.




-RR-

It seams that you are ignoring what happens between the point where the bullet exits the muzzle and the moment it strikes the intended target.

I suspose if all your shots at game are 100 yards or closer it is safe to ignore that. Some of us don't hunt under those conditions and may have good valad reasons for selecting a 300 Win Mag over a 30-30.

But, I could be wrong and I'm sure someone will correct me if I am. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

PS-the only velocity numbers that mean a thing are the ones that are in effect at the time the bullet reaches it's target.

"What I am trying to say is that this is why the "lowly" 7mm-08 is a useful hunting cartridge, and has no need to be a 7mm STW. It's all about the bullet itself, where it hits, and at what velocity (the key being that the velocity suits the intended use of the bullet)."

Well, let me just start out by saying that I just bought a 7mm-08 because, well, why not? It's a fantastic cartridge. I must say though, your post seems confused. Velocity on-target certainly is the prime factor, but if your quarry is X yards away, given the same bullet, the STW is going to be able to produce that velocity at a farther distance than the 7-08. So saying that a 7mm-08 doesn't need to be an STW may not be correct. Also, I'd wager that most 160gr. bullets in 7mm aren't designed around the 7-08, but rather a 7mm mag. If this is correct, then a 160gr with more velocity than a 7-08's 140gr is in a whole 'nother ballpark. Especially with each of the bullets being designed for their respective calibers. Then again, I'm not Mule Deer.

I'm working on an article now that should interest you. It'll point out that what counts is the impact velocity, not the muzzle velocity, and that one bullet can have a higher muzzle velocity than another yet lose enough velocity in flight to be slower than the first bullet at impact down-range. It'll make three comparisons between
(a) two cartridges of the same caliber,
(b) one cartridge with two different bullets, and
(c) one cartridge with the same bullet at different muzzle velocities and peak pressures.

Can't promise (forget too easily!), but I may remember to post some of this article's data here later.

Your post hits right smack in the middle of several vital but too often overlooked truths. Thanks!

I too will be happy to see what Mule Deer has to say about this.

Hey, this is a first, three answers, three guys that are right! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Everybody is correct, to a point. The real limitation here is marksmanship. A 30/30 is just as good for Elk as a 300RUM if the shooter can only hit a 16" x 22" target at 50 yards!

I have always looked at the .308 caliber cartridges are a bullet weight continuum.

300 Savage = 150 grain bullet at 2700 FPS;

308 Win = 165 Grain Bullet at 2700 FPS;

30-06 = 180 grain bullet at 2700 FPS;

300 Winnie = 200 grain Bullet at 2700 FPS.

Thus, each cartridge can effectively kill a larger animal at the same maximum range (say 250 yards).

Where I see alot of hunters and gunwriters going astray is claiming that a 300 Winnie is a good 450 yard deer cartridge. Although the 300 Winnie can send a 150 grain deer bullet way downrange real fast, damn few of us can HIT the deer at the range under field comditions. Therefore, the assertion is correct, but misleading.

Now, PDS actually CAN hit a deer in the next zip code. But he (and the eighteen others guys who are gonna chime in) are rare personages.

Us Americans continually Overbuy and Underprepare. The guy who shoots 200 rounds a month with his 7 STW can hit the deer at 425 yards in a 10 mph crosswind.

But "Joe One-Box-Of-Ammo-A-Year" cain't.

After lots of screwin' around I determined that I like short handy 30 caliber rifles. Big Rifles are fun, but I find I don't bring 'em along as often, I practice with 'em less, and then I just can't hit nothin' with 'em. Then, Since I can't hit nuthin' whit 'em, I don't carry 'em, and on and on.

Therefore, I vote for the smaller, lighter cartridge that is still appropriate for the game sought.

I am also more inclined to move up in Bore Diameter than velocity or bullet weight if I need to kill a bigger animal.

The real problem here is that PDS is just as "right" as I am. Mostly because he practices that 400 yard deer shot over and over again. I practice "Snap Shooting."

PDS lives in Texas and shoots across broad vistas. I live and hunt in the Oregon Coast Range, where a 150 yard shot is WAY OUT THERE! Forty yard shots on moving game is much more common here.

So yeah, once the bullet leaves the muzzle it does not care what the headstamp on the case was. And, the impact velocity is terribly important. But, that bullet still has to hit where the vitals. If the shooter does not cooperate, neither cartridge is worth a darn.

Just MY 2 cents,

Good Shooting,

BMT

I've always viewed things in this relative order of importance.

1)Placement
2)Projectile integrity
3)Specific chambering

I believe the guys who are routinely "luckiest",can routinely meld the three into harmony.

Things is only as difficult as one makes 'em and I believe in both practice and good boolits................

Someone once accused me of making a lucky shot. My reply to him was, "You know, the more I practice, the luckier I get."
Being able to put the bullet into the target at the proper place is also important. Poor shot palcement = wounded game.

Impact velocity is important, and so is muzzle velocity. So is Ballistic coefficient. If a bullet maintains velocity well, it will arrive at the target with better impact velocity. If a bullet leaves the muzzle faster, it will arrive at the target quicker, and thereby drop less (shoot flatter.) Sometimes, a higher velocity means a greater amount of recoil, and often accuracy goes down when recoil goes up. It is a tricky mix. Hit' em as hard as you can accurately, but hit 'em accurately.

All the answers above have truth in them. And we still haven't heard from Mule Deer.

Ken, I'm thinking one of your examples would be the 6.5 long and skinny bullet that carries velocity a long ways..........

Personnally I think it is, or can be, important to consider the cartridge in this equation. For instance, a friend of mine is using a 6mm PPC for deer stalking, but is having trouble locating the brass here in the UK..he is probably going to end up fire forming some .220 Russian, which in itself is expensive. A standard .243 or a 6mm Rem would be far easier to source the brass for.

Another example is the .458Win as used for African big game. A lot of folks struggle loading this to their desired velocities because of the case capacity where is the only slightly longer .458 Lott reaches those velocities easier and at a reduced pressure.

There are lots of other similar considerations ie between rimmed and rimmless, reliablity of feeding in certain actions ect.. So in my IMHO its best to pick the best total package for an application not because some gun writer is hawking it as the latest Super Death Ray for Elk...

Regards,

Pete

In this last issue of Rifle, John Haviland explained it quite well I thought.
I also think there are way to many shooters/hunters nowdays that probably don't read or are unable to comprehend ballistics tables.

RiverRider Wow <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I liked all the different answers to your post.We could almost start a thread on them so I will throw my hat in.When is the last time you saw someone practicing with their rifle standing? My ex wife used to pound the tar out of an 8 inch circle steel plate standing at 200yards with her Ruger 7x57 and then ask "Why are those guys looking at me" My answer:"Because you're doing something most men can't" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Since everyone except Mule Deer is having fun (no slam here), I'll chime in.

First, welcome to the fire, RiverRider!

Second, the first part of the post compares the .243 to the .250 Savage. This isn't apples-to-apples, which could be ignored if the first example used to make your point didn't compare two 7 mm cartridges, which is apples to apples. What'll it be?

For my money, I'll take any of them and kill Bambi right now, if he'll give me the shot I want ...

You have a few points there,impact velocity,terminal ballistics and bullet design.I 'm always impressed by how over a bullets impact velocity design range the retained weight and penetration are almost constant.What I am saying,there is little difference between impacts of 1900f/s and 2600f/s.

--I feel bit undergunned with 30.06 with all these grizzlies around
--Yeah,that's why I have a 300WinMag.

At this point I am thinking,that's nuts.

Talus, no, I am not comparing the .250 Savage to the .243 Winchester. I am pointing out the fact that headstamps are condemned unjustly. Headstamps are also given credit beyond merit.

I'm talking about killing power. It is my belief that we would be better informed if we were more conscious of impact velocities and bullet design, and what works when these are taken into account. As I said, what difference does the headstamp make when the bullet of such-and-such design arrives on target at some specified velocity?

I'd rather be told "a 140-grain, 7mm Ballistic Tip is a remarkable performer when it hits the animal *right here* at about 2200 to 2500 fps" than "trust me, a 7mm-08 kills 'em dead."

I guess I'm picking the nits here. Sorry, that's just my nature!


-RR-

Agreed ... and as another said. If looking to handle bigger stuff I look for a bigger bore.

A bit of a tangent but still related. If you are hunting in an area where you are worried about becoming the hunted my common sense tells me it will happen at close range.

Last time I checked Mr. Alaskan Brownie is not scoping you with a 338 Win. and if you are out hunting deer and happen to see said Mr. Brownie at more then 75 yrds and he is not paying you attention I doubt you are going to shoot him, 30-06 or 300 winnie. At under 50yrds the 06 is just as good (if not better) with 180g then the 300 winnie. If you want real bear protection while deer hunting in Mr Brown's back yard, may I suggest a 45-70 with 400g or more bullet loaded between 1500 to 2000fps. You may have to get closer to get your deer but you will be much better prepared for a face off with a hungry bear.

This goes to the point that placement, bullet and impact speed, are what count. Not distance directly, and not what the headstamp says.

RiverRider,

I can agree with your second post more than your first. Using bullets within their specified velocity range (impact velocity that is) will provide the best performance. Now, if two different cartridges shoot a bullet that arrives, say, 200yds away... and both bullets arrive within the prime impact velocity zone, then yes, headstamps mean little. Trajectory may be the largest difference; but that, too, should be close. Now, as to your oriningal example of a 7mm-08 and 7mm STW... I think this is one where headstamps can and do matter, for same reasons I pointed out in my first post.

After reading your second post though, I think we're actually on the same side of the fence here. Glad you brought this topic up. Good responses so far, I hope many people continue to weigh in!

Looking at the responses, I kinda got the impression I hadn't made my point in the first post!


-RR-

Nitpicker? Welcome home!

Ken Howell:
Great. Where is this article gonna be?
Smitty of the North

RiverRider,

I like your thread. It enables endless discussion and that's what us hunters/shooters love and have an insatiable appetite for. But, if common sense is what you're after, then the last people you should be talking to is us gun lovers! Common sense works. There's nothing more to say about it and how boring is that??!

I'd personally much rather rile up my hunting buddies over some meaningless discussion as to why their .243, 7mm-08, .308, '06 is so outdated that Noah probably used them as a paddle during the flood!! After all, newer has to be better doesn't it?

What I really enjoy is walking into a gunshop and walking out with some hardware. Whether it's needed or not is totally and completely irrelevant and isn't worth talking about. Also, I like watching my hunting buddies do the same and if I can possibly help them in any way to spend their money then far be it for me not to lend a hand!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

So, I say to you, a 7mm-08 MAY be ok if some pathetic, half-starved deer ambles up to you and begs you to put it out of its misery <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> but a 7mm STW, now that's a man's weapon! Heck, it'll knock 'em flat EVERYTIME at 1000yds in a 50mph crosswind even before you can get the gun out of recoil!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Sorry, couldn't resist!! The others got in with the common sense first! I guess Mule Deer's still out somewhere being Mule Deer.