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I was wondering how difficult it is to deflect a bullet fired from a modern high-powered rifle.

I shot a big bodied mulie buck at a range of about 50 yards. The buck was standing broadside and almost dead level with me facing my right. I spooked him in a meadow where he was bedded down. I had the rifle low ready, stepped around a tree, brought the rifle up, and touched off. The deer went straight down. The crosshair was about 3 or 4 inches above the elbow when the trigger broke. However, upon getting to the deer I discovered that the point of impact was much farther back and up than where the crosshair was when the trigger broke. The bullet entered the right side a couple inches in front of the diaphram and about 2/3 of the way up the chest. It then penetrated upwards (and remember, the deer is level with me), shatters the spine, and exits. The back portion of the lungs were severely damaged, though I figure this is more likely due to bone fragments from the splintering vertebrae.
I don't claim to be a skilled rifleman. I don't practice nearly as much as I would like--only about 100 rounds a year with this rifle. I know I can usually put 3 quick rounds into a hanging 8x12 inch steel plate at 100 yards. I felt confident in my ability to cleanly harvest this animal. The shot was well within even my skill level and I fully expected to see the enterence hole very close to where the crosshairs were when the trigger broke.
The only thing that I can think of that would cause such a variation in point of impact was a deflection or destabalization of the bullet. The deer was standing behind 3 or 4 feet of woody brush. From memory, the stems were between 1/4 and 1/2 an inch and the brush was fairly dense but not enough to completely obscure the vitals of the deer. Not knowing how easy it was to deflect a high velocity projectile, I felt the shot was safe. But since then I have been thinking a fair amount, and would like the opinions of some who have hunted and shot through brush as to how easy it would be to deflect the bullet to the this degree in these circumstances.

The load in question consisted of a 160 gr Nosler Accubond over a case full of RL22 in a Remington M700 BDL chambered in 7mm Remington Magnum. Most sources seem to indicate about 3000 fps from such a load, but I haven't chronoed them in my rifle. The barrel is from factory 24" with, IIRC, a 1 in 9 1/4 inch twist.


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A few years back I was putting holes in a solar panel (some kind of sales thing for the military) with a 30-06 at 25yd. Anyway, one of the bullets went through sideways. A close inspection showed a "skin" mark on the bark of a 1/4" twig about 15yd in front of the muzzle. It dosn't take a lot of contact to send a bullet completly "catawumpus" (so much for "brush busting").

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Standing behind 3-4ft of brush <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />, I think it's safe to say there was a good degree of deflection there unless you're the luckiest shooter alive and somehow missed every twig <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

Even though some rounds are thought of as "brush guns", there's really no such thing, as every bullet will experience some degree of deflection when it strikes brush. The amount of deflection just depends on exactly what type of brush it hits, how thick it is, and what angle it hits the limbs. Although bullet size, weight, and velocity has an effect, you can bet that any bullet will get deflected to some degree.


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Welcome to the mildly insane world of terminal ballistics! The link below may or may not help, but don't ever bet the farm that a bullet won't deflect after striking something/anything. Sure bet that it will, only question is how much.
http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/wounding.html


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The determinant is whether the spot on the bullet where it strikes an object acts as a cam, as a hammer, or as a blade.

The curved surface of an ogive is a cam. It tends to change the course of the bullet that glances-off a surface � even a soft surface.

The flat front of a wad-cutter bullet hits like a hammer. If it hits dead-on, it tends to keep going in the same direction.

The edge where a wad-cutter's flat front meets its cylindrical shank is a blade (like a woodworker's scraper). If it digs-in, it tends to deflect less.


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I have mentioned this incident before on another thread but since it so closely relates to your question I'll risk it again.

A friend and I jumped a young bull just like a quail in some opened timber on a hillside. This all happened in about 5 to 7 seconds as I remember. He got up straight away at first and and my friend's .338 Barnes X caught him immediately in the seat of the pants; he immediately veered to my right when my first shot caught him - directly in the chest I thought; as he continued on he took a second then a third and was down only about 30 - 40 yards from where he was bedded. It was almost like working a pump shotgun on a flushing pheasant such was the quick succession of shots from my friend and myself. At the first shot, I was vaguely aware of some fine brush in the scope between the bull and myself but only in retrospect.

Anyway, upon dressing the bull there were two entrances holes in the chest, through and through and the one in the seat had fractured his pelvis and lodged up along his spine. So we had accounted for three of the four shots. Upon further inspection his large grass-filled stomach - bigger than a basketball - had a bullet hole in it such that it appeared to have entered side ways with a slight bend to it, sort of a boomerang shape. Fishing through the soupy mess brought out a 225-gr Nosler Partition whole, marked only by the rifling but bent slightly at the waist. Further scrounging found the matching entrance hole on the inside of his hide. What happened to that bullet? Well about thirty minutes of looking and back tracking found the brush I had vaguely been aware of at my first shot and yes there among these uniformly sized twigs of maybe a quarter to a third of an inch in diameter was a freshly fractured one. Why not deformation of the nose of the bullet but instead the impact seemingly at the "waist" of the bullet I'll never know but the said Nosler was handloaded to about 3000 fps out of a .340 Weatherby and the cross hairs had been on his chest not another foot or more back on his paunch. So much for brush busting.

George

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It seems that almost any twig or leaf will deflect a bullet significantly, what I've wondered about is whether a rain drop or big mushy snowflake will have a noticible effect? Anyone ever tested that?


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That is really interesting. I would expect a bullet traveling at such velocity to have enough momentum to be fairly difficult to deflect but I guess when you think, the bullet does have curved surfaces.

So there is some truth to the reputation typical lever action cartridges like the .444 Marlin and .45-70 Gov have for bucking brush as long as they are loaded with sharp edged, wide mouth flat points?

At any rate, I learned my lesson and will get a clearer shot next time. No more shooting through brush.


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... what I've wondered about is whether a rain drop or big mushy snowflake will have a noticible effect? Anyone ever tested that?
I've long wondered the same thing and suspect that a big gobby drop of rain would, but a snowflake would have to be pretty big and heavy to have any noticeable effect.

When I get the Powley Center set-up, one of the test series that I'm eager to run will investigate the effects (if there are any) of shooting through such things as Saran wrap and clear trash-can liners set at different angles to the line of sight with (of course) a target visible beyond the plastic film. Haven't yet figured-out how to provide raindrops and snowflakes of consistent sizes and make 'em appear just where and when I want 'em. Clear, thin plastic film is the best substitute test medium that I've been able to think of, so far.

One thing I know for sure � impact with a raindrop would make a wee cloud of water vapor pretty quickly. Have no idea, though, how much that would slow or divert the bullet. Closest I can mention is the palpable effect of running even one tire through even a small puddle on the road, at high speed. I'm impressed every time it happens, and wonder anew about a bullet hitting a raindrop.

I haven't gotten very far with how to estimate the effects with math and physics. It ain't easy bein' senile. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />


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Ken, I don't know for a fact but I saw and read in print somewhere, which proves nothing of course, that bullets do not hit rain drops because the pressure wave built up ahead of the projectile shatters them and pushes remnants aside.

What do you think?

BCR

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... I saw and read in print somewhere ...that bullets do not hit rain drops because the pressure wave built up ahead of the projectile shatters them and pushes remnants aside. What do you think?
When I first heard of that theory some years back, my first thought was How in the world would anybody know?

Thinking it through since, I'm pretty sure that even so, a dead-on "hit" would slow the bullet somewhat, because the vaporization of the raindrop would be an expenditure (a drain) of energy, the only source of which is the movement of the bullet.

If the impact of the Mach cone with the raindrop were glancing, the Mach cone of a supersonic bullet being air that has been compressed almost to solidity, I'd expect its off-center impact to divert the bullet somewhat, much the same as if the jacket itself had struck the raindrop.


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Haven't yet figured-out how to provide raindrops and snowflakes of consistent sizes and make 'em appear just where and when I want 'em


I don't know what you could do for snowflakes, but you could shoot through a constant stream of water falling from a faucet to a tank. It won't be the same as a drop, but I bet you could get the stream pretty thin.
Then all you have to do is hit it! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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Why not set up a lawn sprinkler so it sprays in the bullet's path and compare group sizes to those fired in dry air? Seems that if you fired several groups you'd be guaranteed to hit a drop or two, not exactly controlled conditions I know but...
IIRC I read an article years ago by Col. Charles Askins in which he made a frame which held a number of very small dowel rods and shot through them at a target with several different rifles. Seems like the only thing that wasn't deflected a huge amount was a .458 Win Mag-and it was deflected some. I also recall watching a video of a guy firing a bench rest rifle in .50 BMG through a pile of brush at a target a few yards back; same result the monsterous slugs hit all over the target, most had keyholed to some degree. Neither Charlie's writings or videos of unknown origen should be taken as gospel of course, but I'll accept them on this one. If we are to err, let's do it on the side of caution.


'Four legs good, two legs baaaad."
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"Jimmy, some of it's magic,
Some of it's tragic,
But I had a good life all the way."
(Jimmy Buffett)

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I was remiss in not adding the most important point to my above post and that is that had my first shot been the only shot we had had on that bull he probably would have died a miserable death in a week or two of peritonitis. Therefore there is no sporting shot on unwounded game where there is intervening brush.

George


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