Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Sitka Deer stock finish

Art, some time back you and a distinguished gent had a some what heated exchange about stock finishes. I sided with you on the durability of finisheds to be applied to guns that saw service in wet climes. So here is my question what is your finish? How is it applied. I am finishing a very nice carlo walnut stock for my 6.5 Swede. This is as close to a custom rifle as I will ever own. The wood was purchased 35 years ago by my dad and has been in dry storage up until last winter. Very nice grain and figure. Dad handed it over top me and I had it cut to my specs. Now I want a durable finish that will enhance the wood as well as protect it. This one will not get my usual hand rubbed oil finish. I plan to use it in Western Wa and B.C. and perhaps SE Alaska.
<br>
<br>Bullwnkl.

Bullwnkl
<br>The critical part of the finish I use is a coat of slow-curing 2-part epoxy, typically G-1 from Industrial Formulators in Toronto. If there is any question about the epoxy curing due to oily grip cap or fore-end wood (some rosewoods are bad) I use G-2 from the same place. They are 24 and 48 hour cures respectively.
<br>
<br>Not only are these epoxies stronger than any fast-curing epoxies, but they also have tremendous open time, giving you all the time you need to play with it.
<br>
<br>The top coats are any oil finish you want to put on there. It will look exactly like your finest hand-rubbed oil finish, will be as easy to repair as your oil, but will waterproof the wood like oil could never dream of doing it.
<br>
<br>The key aspect is to finish sand, with a couple de-whiskering steps included, then heat it in an oven to about 110 degrees, which is about as hot as you can hold with toughened bare hands. As soon as you take it out of the oven start applying the epoxy. Get as much surface covered, as fast as you can.
<br>
<br>As the wood cools it will suck a ton of epoxy into every pore in the stock, keep putting it on any spot that looks dry. Try to keep any runs from developing... I have never been 100% successful at this stage.
<br>
<br>After the epoxy cools, clean up any little runs and finish sand (dry) again, trying not to cut through the epoxy, which you will do in places. Put a second coat of epoxy on, being extra careful to cover the sanded through areas, but not neccessarily covering the whole stock.
<br>
<br>Do not fall for the easy way out and thin the epoxy. It will make it easier to apply, but the result is a compromised finish... I suspect that is due to evaporation pores left by the acetone as it works its way out.
<br>
<br>Be sure to coat the barrel channel and the butt.
<br>
<br>Resand and try even harder not to cut through the finish again... apply more epoxy if needed.
<br>
<br>Then put your favorite oil finish on top. My favorites are varathane 66, which has some varnish in it, and plain old Tru-oil. Whatever you use, buy a small fresh container for each stock, it does not age gracefully and old oil will cure much slower.
<br>
<br>Tru-oil will yellow a bit more than 66, but I prefer it on most walnuts and myrtle. But the 66 wins hands down on maple, according to my taste.
<br>
<br>As you have experience putting on oil finishes, I won't pretend to tell you how to do that part. Good luck, and I hope this helps.
<br>art

Art, I am puzzled just a little bit, Will the epoxy not fill all the pores not allowing an oil finish to penetrate? I am going to try your finish on an old Savage 22 hornet I have lying about, it is a decent walnut stock. I will feel better about epoxy if I practice first. Once the epoxy has set how long should it cure before application of oil. I will use Lin-Speed, have had good luck over the years with this product, and Brownells has it again. Have you ever used a product called West System, this is a two part epoxy that I use on the deck of my race boat and as an adhesive to bond wood. I also have a test area on the Garbage Skow, my fishing boat, that is in an area of crazing in the gel coat. Sanded and trowled in area is as smooth as glass. but I dont see how an oil finish would penetrate and bond to this sort of epoxy. is heating a key element if so I think my bluing rust box would work if I turn up the heat just a bit and let the stock stay in over night. I can control the temp to a degree or so. What are the properties of the epoxy you use, what was it's original intended purpose? I ask to see if the material I have might be similar.
<br>Thanks for the reply.
<br>
<br>Bullwnkl.

Bullwnkl
<br>I am very familiar with the West System epoxies and would not hesitate to use them. I have found that it is not as hard as the G-1 and feels somewhat oily when cured, but that is not a problem. I have used many brands over the years, just do not use fast-setting anything. Depending on the system you have, pumps vs bottles vs buckets, just decide what you can get for the slowest setting time, and mix according to that. I mix my epoxy thoroughly, let it rest for at least 20 minutes then remix before use. With the G-1 I have plenty of open time to do that.
<br>
<br>The G-1 and G-2 are adhesive mixtures.
<br>
<br>There is absolutely no need for the oil to penetrate the wood, if it did, water could too. The oil finish will build nicely on the epoxy surface, and I have never had even the slightest lifting or peeling of an oil finish, even in sadly damaged areas.
<br>
<br>Now you bring up a different problem though when you speak of using epoxy over oil... it might not penetrate the wood as well??? i honestly have not tried it simply because I don't think it is a good idea.
<br>
<br>The oven is the way to go for heat, and there is no need to get it too hot, and remember that the heat will dry your wood very rapidly, particularly in your neck of the woods. The idea is to get it hot rapidly and go with it as too much drying will shrink your stock some and cause your wood to move around.
<br>
<br>Now though, I have a bone to pick with you, my river boat, an 18' john boat with a 75 with a jet drive is called "The Garbage Skow," and has been for about 15 years. Who has name priority here?!? ;-)
<br>
<br>Hope this helps
<br>art

Art, perhaps you can figgure this out. My boat was a gift from it's original owner, I don't think he likes me, he coined the name some time during the past 40 years. The boat is a 1961 Glaspar with a 1959 Johnson 75. So if the owner of said hole in the water named this fine craft at it's purchase I probably have naming rights, however I will share them with you as your boat is a sled and mine is a tub.
<br>
<br>Bullwnkl.

I'll concede...
<br>art

Art, do you brush the epoxy on? I am going to try the same method I use on my boat parts, I will use a body filler squeege I get very little in the way of runs and a good even coat, what do you think?
<br>
<br>Bullwnkl.
<br>JIm

Bullwnkl
<br>I do things that would make an industrial hygenist cringe, not to mention any other kind of hygenist. I use those things God intended me to use for smearing stuff around... my fingers.
<br>
<br>I would suppose the squeegie will work great. Another thing I use is a heat gun to reheat the wood if it cools too much before I get goo on it. I would try to get a good goopy load on and then clean it off after it has a chance to get sucked in as much as possible...
<br>
<br>I might even try that on my next stock, as it sounds like a pretty decent idea.
<br>art

Art, 2 questions and I'll print this thread and file it in my "rifle project" file. Can you give me a phone or contact info on that Toronto outfit? And what do you do if you're working with the stock from a factory gun; that is, already finished. Sand down to the bare wood, or just touch it up and call the rest character?
<br>
<br>Thanks, Jeff

Jeff
<br>I buy my epoxy from Garrett Wade in NYC, can dig up their numbers, but a Google search would drop it in your lap as fast as mine... I have called and spoken to the engineers for Industrial Formulators about a number of different problems and they are easy to get hold of and seem to know their hooves...
<br>
<br>I do not put epoxy over other finishes. I suppose, in the interest of science, I should test it some time, but if I am dealing with a factory stock... I just add oil. I seldom attempt to save a factory stock for anything, which is why I have a bunch of take-off stocks hanging around, needing to go away.
<br>art

Thanks, Art. I'm printing now.
<br>
<br>Jeff

A little addendum just popped up the other day that I thought I should clarify. 458 Lott has been working magic on a horrible semi-inlet mauser stock that I gave him. A decided Guymon flared monte carlo cheek piece and minimum wood left in the heel made it a real challange.
<br>
<br>To say he has done a nice job is a huge understatement. He even turned a piece of claro into batogne! Anyway, last week he got to putting on the epoxy undercoat that makes the finish work.
<br>
<br>He put on a heavy coat and left it to soak in. Now he is dealing with the runs and drips and high spots. IN general he is going to be required to redo the whole finish sanding of the stock.
<br>
<br>The point I need to make clear is that the epoxy is put on heavy while the stock is hot and sucking it up, but once the stock cools and the uptake slows, the epoxy needs to be scraped off with something, such as the squeegie that Bullwnkl suggested earlier.
<br>
<br>As I also admitted earlier, I use my index finger, but whatever you use, do not leave any epoxy on the surface, or you will be sanding/cutting it off some other way.
<br>art

Minor understatement on the work to remove the surplus glue! One could say I so enjoyed sanding the stock that I wanted to repeat the experience.
<br>
<br>I'll also note that I used disposable latex gloves when applying the epoxy. I've never been one to care much about getting grease of gunk on my hands, but can't stand getting adhesives on my hands.
<br>
<br>As far as Sitka putting industrial hygeniests in a tizzy, I think the electrical inspector would have a field day, and an ergonomicist would would shudder. It must be a rebellion against the HSE gestapo.

Sitka: Have you ever posted pics of your guns with this finish ?
<br>
<br>If you have some please email me kind sir. I tried something similiar with a product from "Behr" that was a two part epoxy compound used to make counter tops. It was a little more yellow on very light woods then I was looking for though. Hard as a rock. If you scratched it up, I could of buffed it back out in a few minutes with a buffer wheel.
<br>
<br>How much is this stuff and do you order it from the factory direct?
<br>
<br>Thanks
<br>
<br>Tex

http://www.garrettwade.com
<br>
<br>-- my all-time favorite tool-supplier
<br>
<br>I've bought a passel of my tools from Garrett Wade, not a few of which were simply up-grades of tools that I already had (because GW's are so much better in quality -- many are works of art, classics). I like to give myself a special treat now 'n' then, and I enjoy having GOOD tools in my hands -- Lie-Nielsen planes, for example, which are also quite nice to just turn over and over and look at.

kEN I COULD NOT AGREE WITH YOU MORE, ALMOST ALL OF MY TOOLS ARE OF TOP QUALITY. wHY BUY THE SAME TOOL MORE THAN ONCE. I COULD HAVE SPENT $39.00 AT WALLY WORLD FOR A INFERIOR SABER SAW BUT INSTEAD I BOUGHT A PORTER CABLE FOR $160.00, NOT THAT I HAVE MONEY TO BURN BUT RATHER THIS TOO WILL LAST ME AS LONG AS I WILL EVER NEED IT. I HAVE WORN OUT SEVERAL DRILL MOTORS, ALL CHEAP MODELS , NOT ANY MORE I NOW USE DELTA OR MIKITA, COST MORE TO BEGIN WITH BUT IF USED A LOT LIKE I DO IT'S MONEY SAVED IN THE LONG RUN. AND GOOD TOOLS JUST LOOK GOOD. KIND OF LIKE COMPARING AN OLD 788 REM TO A 700BDL THEY BOTH GET THE JOB DONE THE 700 JUST LASTS LONGER AND IS MUCH NICER TO USE AND LOOK AT.
<br>
<br>BULLWNKL.

texas hunter
<br>KKalaska posted a picture of a stock he finished with my system and it should be recoverable from the archives, just cannot remember the thread right now.... will post it when the memory returns;-)
<br>
<br>My scanner is currently not talking to my computer and I have no idea why not, otherwise I would simply scan a few stocks directly. When I get that problem resolved I'll do it though.
<br>
<br>The thing to realize is that the epoxy is not really a surface finish at all, as almost all of the finish is down in the wood. The oil over the top is what is seen, for the most part and does not yellow at all like the heavy epoxy finishes.
<br>
<br>As Dr Howell pointed out, Garret Wade is the source for the G-1 and G-2 epoxies I use, but any high quality slow-cure mixture will work just fine. Also, while looking through GW's catalog you are bound to find something else you simply have to have... I know I do.
<br>art

A stock-maker friend in one of the Carolinas told me years ago that he liked to use a product called Cure Rot to strengthen the wood where he was about to checker. Said it made his checkering better, but every job did-in a set of cutters. Also said he was tempted to use it as a finish but hadn't tried it in that application yet.
<br>
<br>Cure Rot, I understand, is a water-thin epoxy used to impregnate dry-rotted areas of wooden boat hulls and restore their strength so that they need no further repair. I've seen it in catalogs but have never tried it for anything. A few gun-maker friends whom I've told about it have tried it and told me it worked as well as Joe said it did.

Dr Howell
<br>The rot cure is what started me on the conceot of using the epoxy. I used it several times and then discovered it has some serious anti-microbial sauce in the elixir.
<br>
<br>In the processes of sanding and checkering I could envision the stuff being liberated into my breathing air... Decided to change brands to a plain epoxy.
<br>best to you
<br>art

Just finished putting the first coat, and the only coat I always hope.... on my 375AI stock FINALLY! A couple points came to me that I thought I would add here.
<br>
<br>The forearm is the most problematic spot for warping, etc and also cools the fastest, due to its lack of mass, so put the epoxy on there first. When I just did this Turkish Circassian stock it was extremely tight grained and soaked up very little finish. I used a heat gun to see if it was a case of not enough heat, but very few bubbles formed in the finish.
<br>
<br>Another point, when you have unset epoxy on your hands, it washes off very easily with any of the various Go-Jo type cleaners, as long as they are the pumice variety. It forms big ropes of glued together pumice when you rub your hands.
<br>
<br>Hope this helps.
<br>art