Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

Oh yes, the Early African.
If that Gunsmith of yours drops a "dog bone" cross bolt in there after his precise milling of the web
between magazine and trigger wells,
then covers it with that super epoxy,
and does his usual super job of glass bedding with pillars: No worries.
The single visible "Chicago Bolt" and the hidden cross bolt will do.

WRAC made a mistake when they recalled the early ones and installed a barrel lug without the dog bone added.
They still cracked stocks without the dog bone.
When they finally figured that out well into 1957
darn if they didn't start using plastic plugs to cover the nickel-plated rivets used as cross bolts fore and aft.

Even the SIGARMS Magnum M98 in .450 Dakota needs no barrel lug according to the MAUSER BANNER people.
Just two cross bolts, pillars and glass bedding in a 9.5-pound rifle.

And that reminds me that a .458 WM+ and a .450 Dakota on a Magnum M98 are both at their best with 404-grainer at +2500 fps
or a 450-grain FN solid at +2400 fps.
Or 500-grain TBSS at +2300 fps if you have not replaced them with CEB brass 450-grain FNs yet.
But the .458 WM+ burns about 20 grains less powder to do the same,
and holds 6 cartridges in the magazine instead of only 4.
The .458 WM+ is much gentler in recoil.

But what ?
You say the .450 Dakota is lower in pressure ?
Well, the .458 WM+ is not too high in pressure.
It is lower in pressure than a SAAMI .458 Lott,
and the Lottites are not dying on safari nearly as often as we could hope for.

A reminder of why the .458 WinMag is the way to go:



This should be a regular feature of the Square Table, whenever gags similar to this are stumbled upon to post here,
please do, kind Sirs.
Critique of shooting form and techniques might be helpful to some, especially Lottites.

Here is another case where a 23" Winchester factory barrel (chrome-moly) shoots 4 fps faster than a 26" Remington factory barrel (stainless)
and is more accurate too.
Same factory ammo in both.
23-incher at 65*F
26-incher at 70*F
5*F temperature difference would favor the 26-incher, but the 23-incher still topped it in MV,
and did I mention accuracy too ?
How could this be ?
As Forrest Gump would say, IT HAPPENS.



I see now that the "RUM" might have been stamped, not engraved, but some very talented metalsmith did this one too.
Take note for rebore and re-marking of chrome-moly barrels chambered for .458 Winchester Magnum custom rifles.

Sir Ron,

A very lucid explanation providing context to the various 45 caliber DGRs. Although our preferences on weights of DGRs vary somewhat, - I prefer my DGRs for the field in this category to weigh in at 10.5 - 11 lbs empty, no sling, no muzzle brake, with sights of the hunter’s choice - our conclusions on calibers converge. Carrying a DGR of this empty weight, before adding a full magazine +1 in the chamber - over the non-dominant shoulder - is easily accomplished even when multiple miles on spoor are the order of the day. The weight is well balanced and easily borne for a hunter who has conditioned himself to the walk required.

Based on my own experience with the 45 caliber DGRs, I would conclude that the place of the 458 Lott is difficult to rationalize. Mine was a Ruger RSM which I shot for several years, but it never made it to Africa.

Though I have nowhere the volume of personally-owned DGR experience as you do, I would categorize the useful 45 caliber DGRs into basically 3 groups:

Class 1) 458 WM with standard length LA magazine boxes: most maximum powder charges will top out around 80 grains. Although the standard bullet for thick skinned DG has traditionally been 500 grain solids, in this age of monolithics I’ve chosen the 450 grain CEB BBW#13 - based on its shorter base length while retaining the forward length and profile - as an easily loaded straight line penetrator which will dependably reach - and probably transit through - elephant vitals from virtually any needed angle. This can be done with the spherical powders easily without extreme measures and yet preserve the repeater characteristics of standard length LA bolt actions. My experience with the 458WM is limited to a Ruger M-77 TS (magazine box COAL limit 3.340”) and a Ruger (MKII) Hawkeye African with a slightly longer magazine length of almost 3.40”. I prefer the latter as it’s a true CRF.

Achieving MVs with the 450 grain bullets at magazine-determined COALs and bbl lengths of 23”-25” of 2375-2400 fps is possible. In my case that stretches the TS Ruger to its limit but is easily achievable in the Hawkeye. Although I have loaded 500 grain conventional lead-core bullets in both, I don’t do so anymore in the TS as it clearly produces very near or over maximum chamber pressures to get to the 2175-2200 fps MV goal.

Class 2) 450 Dakota, 450 Rigby, 460 Weatherby built on magnum actions (CZ, Ruger RSM, etc.): these cartridges use 102-104 grain powder charges with 500 grain monolithic solids to achieve 2400 fps MV in a 23” barrel. More MV is clearly possible with greater powder charges. My experience has been with the 450 Rigby in a JES-rebored 416 Rigby factory RSM. As the 2400 fps level has been sufficient for me to produce pass-through penetration on elephant from frontal and side shots, I don’t use faster loads in the field, though the cartridge can easily achieve that within less than the normally allowable chamber pressure limits. These cartridges are loaded with the 500 grain CEB BB#13 solids.

I have not had experience with the 450 Dakota variant, but given the nearly identical case capacities of it and the Rigby version, I’ve generalized the projected results. Of course, the Wby is generally loaded to higher pressures and thus achieves higher MVs, but I have no experience with that cartridge. My own conclusion is that MVs greater than 2400 +/- 50 fps are probably not necessary as that clearly increases recoil - without muzzle brakes - thus slowing down follow up shots, in the hands of most of us. Not only does MV increase with these loads, but the needed powder charges with their attendant muzzle jet effect increases recoil considerably. Not a good idea when follow up shots are frequently in order to drop elephants before they disapppear into the bush or into a herd.

Class 3) Intermediate capacity 45 calibers: these include the full-length 45s based on the 375 H&H case and some of those based on the 404J case or its offspring RUM case. I have only had experience with the 460 G&A built on a Winchester M-70 Classic LA with a 3.6” magazine custom built by Gene Simillion which fits 4 rounds. These cartridges use maximum powder charges with 500 grain monolithic solids around 90 grains to reach MVs of or close to 2400 fps. These Class 3 Intermediate 45 caliber cartridges produce equivalent ballistic performance to normally loaded Class 2 cartridges.

It is this Class 3 cartridges which made me reach the conclusion, based on my experience, that the 458 Lott has been/become superfluous - a solution to a non-existent problem. Despite several years of use and load experimentation, my factory original Ruger RSM 458 Lott with a 23” barrel, based on my records, never reached the 2400 fps MV goal with 500 grain bullets. What then is the case for a cartridge requiring 3.6” magazine length - often in a true magnum action - when the Class 3 Intermediate cartridges surpass it in standard LA receivers, and Class 3 cartridges clearly surpass it at lower pressures?

I recognize that there is plenty of room for disagreement with these conclusions, but these are my conclusions based on my observations and personal experience.

WCT264,
With respect, your .460 Weatherby assumptions are considerably understated, which is endemic with non .460 users.

My best loads are as follows:

400gn Barnes X bullet - 116gn IMR 4064 for 2900fps
450gn Barnes TSX bullet - 119gn IMR 4350 for 2627fps
500gn Hornady RN - 122gn IMR 4350 for 2642fps
500gn Swift A Frame - 123gn IMR 4350 for 2678fps
550gn Woodleigh - 121gn IMR 4831 for 2509fps
600gn Barnes RN - 116gn IMR 4350 for 2460fps.

These are instrumental velocities not corrected to MV with several meeting the original factory specs for generating 8000FPE.

Hope this infor is helpful to .460 users who don't fall for the startng loads always published as maximum loads in the magazines by non .460 users.

Sir Jeremy;
That is a nice looking working rifle ! What is the optic on it ?
Welcome to the Square Table.

AGW,

I acknowledge your point that with ~6% greater case volume and significantly higher maximum chamber pressure, the 460 Wby is capable of greater MV than the 450 Rigby and 450 Dakota.

The point I inarticulately attempted to make is that higher MVs with monolithic solids which already pass through elephants at the 2400-2450 fps level, while materially increasing recoil, is probably more of a good thing than most of us can easily handle and still perform a rapid and well aimed follow up shot. Given your experience with the 460 Wby cartridge, however, YMMV.

BTW, IIRC Thomson in Mahohboh states that his experience does show that the 460 Wby seems to deliver a more definitive blow, though his preference remained the 458 WM in a very well tuned Mauser M-98. Confidence in his handling of that rifle and its eventual utter reliability at speed won out.

Most .460 experts never handloaded the .460 let alone shot it over a period of years. Judgements based on factory ammo which originally used Hornady RN ammunition is neither the best for the .460 nor the best for penetration comparisons. It was simply the common misconception which is no different than the experts who passed judgement on early .458 factory ammo or proclaimed SAAMI Lott superiority over the .458 and its provable performance capabilities.

This thread is a consolidation of first hand experience with the handloading options available to us today which elevates the .458 to its potential.

Based on that being a helpful guide to enthusiasts and people simply exploring the cartridge, it is equally important to clean up inexperience based information stated about the .460's potential as there never has been any published fact reagrding its capability when handoaded to potential, which is a pretty raw deal. My own articles on this subject are not available on the net, being witheld by the publisher because I refused to sign over the rights to my published works uncompensated.

My mileage will always vary for that reason. I have a built affection for the .460 because of nearly 20 years handloading for it and used it in the field so my intent is only to help people understand the facts as best I can help.

Riflecrank: is it sacrilegious to own TWO 1965 Win 70 .458 Suoer Grades? I mean, am I a lesser being for having a push feed?!?!? ;0

It is sacrilegious only because you have two of them. Send me one and I’ll stand it next to my Whitworth and all will be well!
Best regards sir,
F01

Thanks! The optic is a vintage fixed 2.5x weaver made in ElPaso TX. Cristal clear glass and a duplex reticle. I have used them for years and really have had good experience with them. Not the most expensive or cutting edge but have served me well.

Those old Weavers are rock solid. I bought a few when ebay was selling them for around $60 each a while back.

The lower powers sit small on a Marlin and help reach, and their robustness is seen in many old pics of Elmer Keith mounting them on heavy recoiling rifles.

Yup! Years ago I stuck one on a beat up old 3.5" single barrel 12g slug gun. I hacked the barrel off at 18" and thought i had made the perfect brush gun. Mind you i was a big strapping lad of about 12 years old that probably should have had better supervision lol. At about 5lbs or less that thing kicked the crud out of me but I loved every shot. Long story short the weaver held up for several years on that thing and won me over with its durability. The old shotgun is unfortunately long gone but the weaver scope now resides on one of my 45-70s.

I have same Weaver K2.5 on my .35 Whelen custom rifle on a Pre-'64 M70.
It is just right, and it thumped a couple of big boar hogs righteously in Tennessee.

Ditto that !
That version may say "SUPER GRADE" on the floor plate, like the Pre-'64, but they are all still the AFRICAN !

Sir Woods,
I will go with your side on the debate, whatever that is.
I have read some of your articles and recall the bucks and bulls at far and near with 400-grainer at 2900 fps or 600-grainer at 2460 fps.
Sir Khulu lost me when he mixed up the numbers on his classes of .458 bolt action rifles.

If there are 3 classes then the .460 Wby, .450 Dakota, and .450 Rigby Rimless belong in level three.
The 404-Jeffery-based, smaller-cased cartridges obviously go in level two, handiness and shootable in a 3.6" magazine just confuses the rankings.

Class 1: .45-70 Gov't. (in Siamese Mauser) or .450 Marlin, .458 American, etc.
Class 2: .458 WM+, .458 B&M+, etc.
Class 3: .460 Weatherby Magnum, etc.

Above are the leaders of the three packs.

Come to think of it, the .460 Weatherby beats the .450 Dakota/Rigby mainly because of its throat.
In effect it is very like the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum.

By CIP (2002 May 15 revision) the right cylinder slug jump from case mouth to start of lands at 0.458" diameter
for the .460 WbyMag = 0.7559" from 2.9130" maximum brass length.
Of course most of that jump is along a parallel-sided free-bore of only 0.4583", only 0.0003" greater than bullet diamete.

By all SAAMI and CIP standards, same measure for the .458 WinMag is 0.6725" of slug jump from 2.500" maximum brass length.

After that the leade of the .460 WbyMag is more abrupt at 1*05'20"
vs the .458 WinMag at 0*29'30".

Summary:

For full engraving at bore diameter of 0.450", distance form case mouth :
.460 WbyMag: 1.0157"
.458 WinMag: 1.1420"
For start of engraving at bullet caliber diameter of 0.458", distance from case mouth:
.460 WbyMag: 0.7559"
.458 WinMag: 0.6725"

BTW, for Sir Woods 500-gr Swift A-Frame (G1BC 0.361) with instrumental velocity of 2678 fps,
a 5-yard correction to MV would add ~13 fps (12.6 fps).
If MV = 2691 fps,
KE = 8039 ft-lbs (8038.9).

I am inspired.
Hornswoggled no longer:





Above rifle is pictured with a No.6 Sporter Pac-Nor when it was a .500/.338 LM aka 12.7x68mm Magnum.
Below is how it is as a .408/.338 LM aka the 10.4 Spiridon Moor,
with a McGowen No.6 Light Target contour of 25" length and weighs 10#10oz as shown, unloaded:







I am thinking a No. 5 Sporter contour for the .458 Winchester Magnum Dakota, 24" long with a screw on muzzle brake for benchrest shooting.
I have one last AFRICAN rear sight in the parts bin that needs a use, and the .458 WMD will need a front sight like on Alderella the Knik Knocker.
Might be a 10.0-pound express-sighted rifle without the brake and no ammo.
Sir Khulu would not object to that,
and neither would I.

Since the .460 WbyMag CIP twist is 1:16", I might do that with the .458 WMD also.
Would not hurt with hardcast bullet loads of .461" diameter that are not so good in the .460 WbyMag throat with 0.4583"-diameter PSFB.
The .458 WMD may beat the .460 WbyMag at "Star Wars" after all is said and done.

Alternate chambering title for .458 WMD: "11.64 Spiridon Moor"
because it sort of rhymes.

New Mould for .461" hardcast that fit the throat of the .458 WMD just as well as they fit in the .458 WinMag:







Here is my latest bauble for .458 WinMag:



I will be needing another trim die for the .458 WMD, should work with the standard .450 Dakota.

Continuing make-overs for Hammerella and Mahohbesta:

Big sister Hammerella: