Rickt300's post rings very true to me.
As someone with over 4 decades of experience in these things, I have said (for the record) a number of times that I cannot see ANY difference in the speed of killing between the elk I have killed, and seen killed, with 270s and those killed with 300 magnums and 338 magnums. In fact having looked at the wounds through and through the elk I have gutted, I can't tell much difference (if any) between the wound size of those killed with 308s, 30-06, 270s, 7MM Mags 280s, 300 magnums (H&H Winchester, Norma, Weatherby and Win Short), when we compare the best bullet used in each.
For the record, I do favor the larger bullets, but for no solid reason I can point to. 40 years ago when I had a LOT of reading under my belt and a little elk hunting, I was convinced the big guns were going to out kill the smaller ones on elk. 45 years later I have not changed my mine 100% but I have about 80%
I have learned that it's the bullet making the bullet hole, and the bullet HOLE is what's doing the killing. Any bullet of any weight that blows up and leaves the largest piece of the bullet at under 80 grains is NOT an elk bullet. I have seen a few "buffalo guns" using target/varmint bullets (even if the label on the box says different) that were not good for elk and I have written about them.
I have also seen many times a little gun (25-06, 257 Roberts, 6.5 Swede and so on) kill elk far better then the 7MM Mags and 300 mags when those magnums were loaded with target/varmint bullets.
Not all .277 diameter bullets are up to the task, any more than any bullets of any diameter are up to the task. But there are a lot that are.
I really like my big guns. I just LIKE them. But for killing elk I am not convinced any more that I need them. And I hunt where there are a LOT of grizzlies, so they act to some extent as a security blanket for me.
But until I get to the 375H&H I can't see ANY difference in the effectiveness of a 270 loaded with a good 150 or 160 grain bullet and any other gun I have ever used, or even seen used on elk. I have seen 130 grain and 140 grain bullets used too, but I have always killed them with 150s and 160s.
Yes, I can see elk drop faster when hit with my 375H&H then I have seen with smaller guns, but even that rifle is not all that much faster.
If I were offered 2 loaners for a all-expense paid elk hunt, and those 2 choices were a 257 Roberts loaded with 115 grain Barnes X bullets, or 120 grain Nosler Partitions, and a 300 Weatherby loaded with a Burger (ANY Burger) I would take the 243 without the slightest hesitation. 40 years ago I would not have taken the 257 and it's ammo, because 40 years ago I though I knew things that I later found to be untrue.
If we strip away the illogical "diameter warship" which is so pervasive in the shooting community we can start to see with open eyes.
The elk doesn't know or care what diameters the bullet started out. The wound that kills the elk is made by only 2 factors.
#1 is penetration.
#2 is cavitation.
The deepest any bullet can penetrate is 100%. Those are the ones that leave an exit wound. A deeper hole is seen with a quartering shot then a broad-side shot, but 100% is the goal.
So the only factor left (if we can get a through and through wound) is the size of the hole. That's cavitation.
Strong bullets that expand and don't come apart do both. Sure a 243" is going to leave a narrower wound then a 35 Whelen, but if both can get clear through and exit (even if bone is hit) then both will do the job. A wound from a 243 WINCHESTER WITH A GOOD BULLET IS "SMALL" BUT IT'S LARGER THAN THOSE MADE BY BIG BROADHEADS SHOT BY ARCHERS. THINK ABOUT THAT FACT.
I all likelihood the larger diameter hole is going to allow for the elk to bleed out to a degree the blood pressure drops below the point the brain can stay conscious. But if supporting bone is hit both the 243 and the 35 Whelen shot elk are going to simply drop.
My experience has shown me that a bullet from my 375H&H can be aimed at the off-side shoulder of an elk, regardless of it's body angle, and I can break that shoulder or at least exit the elk near it. That's not the case with bullets that break up no matter how big they start out. I have seen the same with 160 grain 270s and with 220 grain 30-06s
I have seen only a small handful of 243 kills on elk, but I have seen about 15 with 257 Roberts and 25-06 and with the correct bullets you can still get an exit on a big bull even when it's not broadside. That's not a Theory. It's a fact. I have seen it, several times.
The ones I have killed and seen killed with the 270s were all fast, and about half were instant.
I have seen a handful of what I'd call "poor performance hits" from 270 in my life and all were from hits on deer. Also every one was from a hit with a bullet that blew up without penetrating fully. Thinking back I can recall such failures from Sierra 130 grains (a few) the old original Nosler Ballistic Tips (pre- Ballistic Tip HUNTING labels) and every Burger I have ever seen shot to date. Now, not all the Burgers gave poor kills, but ALL (without one single exception) were total blow-ups. When you have a blow up that's perfectly placed even the worst bullets will kill dramatically.
My own Pastor had extremely poor results 2 seasons ago with his 270 shooting the Burger bullets and has now changed to 150 grain Nosler Partitions. This year he has fired 4 shots, 2 deer, 1 antelope and 1 elk. All bang-flops.
All is is a lot of words to say what I started to say way back when......
Worship or damnation of a diameter of a bore is rather stupid. It's not supposed to be a religion.
What works is deep wide wounds and good marksmanship. The tool is ALWAYS less important then the workman.
Use a bullet that weighs 80 grains or more when it stops (not when it starts) and shoot well, and you'll fill your freezer just fine.
But above all else, learn to shoot well and don't shoot at elk that are at extreme ranges where your hit is a "maybe". Shoot at the ones you KNOW you ca kill and never those you think you may be able to kill.
Big game is not the enemy. They are a blessing given by God to us all, and we ought to have a degree of respect for them as such. Brag to me about how you shot 5 shots on a milk jug at 800 yards and never missed one time. That's impressive. Telling me about your 800 yard kill on game only tells me (And everyone) you are not showing the respect of the game I believe we need to have, and you are only giving leverage to the anti-hunting crown to use against us all.
Just because you can doesn't mean you should. I can and I have, so I can't condemn those that still do, but I have grown up since then. Please listen to words of wisdom from others that made mistakes, so you don't have to make them yourself.
There are 3 kinds of people in the world.
The normal, average ones. They learn by their own mistakes.
The wise ones. They learn by the mistakes of others!
Then they are the fools. They don't learn at all.
Last edited by szihn; 12/14/17.
