Only one sub $30 a box load for the 450, numerous for the 444 Marlin. For deer and black bear the 444 Marlin will work just fine.

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/17
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/19
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/28

Of course, the 45-70 beats 'em both! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You learn something new everyday whether you want to or not.