Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Still think over-penetration is a non-issue? Read this...

Laffin

Campfire doctrine says a pistol is a poor substitute for a centerfire rifle but we don't want a pistol to penetrate as much as a centerfire rifle.

I'm not going to read the article, because I'm going to guess that they don't define "passed through someone" so as to distinguish your "through the thorax" from "clipped his pinky", thereby rendering the statistics useless. You can chide me if I'm wrong.

Like I always told employees when a worked in Detroit who bragged "there's a big difference between having one and being one". (Not directed at you personally, just that your reminded me of it)

Right!!! Now you're getting it

He doesn't lay out the entire database But does give some examples of through torso penetration. Regardless the point is that carrying a load you know for a fact will completely perforate a torso could become a liability. Doesn't mean it's automatically a liability, but that there could be problems.

in crowded areas that could be a problem. At church, a concert, a mall, sporting event, gun show. If something went down, there's a good chance there could be some "no shoots" on the other side. He also mentions the tachy psych effect where you may be unable to determine if there are any no shoots on the other side. The one cited the person on the other side turned out to be the officer's partner. And you can't blame a guy for that, under tachy psych, you don't have control over if that does or does not give you tunnel vision.

Just food for thought. I'm not changing my loads or anything because I don't carry anything that has that much penetration. But people whom carry hardball or hard cast may want to think about it.

One of our members carries .45 ACP JHP's, but carries .45 Super cast FP's for his reload. Such a choice can have a down side...it can also have one hell of an up side too. You just have to evaluate your more likely scenarios and determine what's the best idea.

When I lived in Arkansas I was VERY rural, so such a load out would have been damn near perfect. Now I'm still rural but considerably less rural with more frequent trips to cities, so a Super cast FP in my spare mag may not be the best idea.

I'm not really advocating one way or another, just think everyone ought to make as fully an informed decision as possible.

please excuse any typos this reply was done on my phone

"something went down.."

Has anyone talked like that since Starsky and Hutch?

Of course I "enjoy" hunting in a state that uses the same "if and but's were candy and nuts we'd have Christmas every day" analogy to the omission of centerfire rifles for all big game hunting.

Someone still has a hunting "accident" every year despite the crossing of fingers, the rural versus urban analogy and undisputed legislative tendency of being statistically belligerent....and stupid at the same time.

Of course the low SD jacketed/expanding bullet has an accident proof/complete reliability reputation built upon a zero failure rate, not out of fact but out of engineered intention.

many years ago during the mass migration from model 19's and pythons to semiauto's, the .45 1911 style all became the rage.
And 230 grain hard ball ammo.
couple of S.O. deputies at the time responded to a call in a double wide trailer. They were separated by room. One deputy found it expedient to plug this guy, the ball round went through him, through a wall and hit his partner.
So, in real life i know there can be overpenetration issues with hardball.

It is people shooting again, not hunting. I agree you should not shoot anyone behind the creep but in most cases it is another creep anyway. I have no guns to carry but my hunting guns are good for 5 creeps in a row. They will shoot through a house and take out an engine block. Why would a cop put himself in the line of fire?

U

Kevin posted 17 were hit directly, that means they were in the line of fire. Bullets are dangerous when flying in ones direction. Know what is behind your intended target. Hit directly has nothing to do with so called "over penetration".

We have a member on the campfire that was shot point black in the chest with a 4 or 6 barrels 38 special 110 grain that cracked his chest but did not penetrate through the bone. He grabbed the pistol and hit the guy on the head son hard that he split his skull. Don't believe that lack of penetration in a lethal confrontation is your friend it is not.

No definition of what the bullets over penetrates and unconfirmed speculation in the second paragraph claiming that he would have went down with one Gold Dot and had a better chance of survival. When I was working on Ellis Air Force base in LV the police shot a dude 21 times with JHPs from handgun and AR-15 rounds plus 4 times with 308 sniper rounds before he went down. My friend that works with Baltimore PD told me of a suspect that did not stop firing until he had Ben hit 40 times most from AR-15 rounds at close range.

Too many variables to make those type of claims.

If you'd ever spent any time on the street, you'd know there's a LOT of times when you'd have one guy directly behind a perp, purposefully or not. Chit happens on the street, it's never clinical. And when on the street, there's rarely a time where you can say "I'll never do this or that".

And you have to understand, it's almost always the other guy's decision on when you start the dance, so anything can happen.

Yeah I agree with you on that one.

That's a good statement right there! But there is a point to where there is too much of a good thing. Would you choose a hard cast .44 mag when going into a hostage situation in a preschool? Probably not.

But you're right in that you ABSOLUTELY MUST have sufficient penetration; that comes before and above ALL!

Seems everyone is always concerned about maximum expansion (because big mushroom'd bullets look impressive), and rarely talk about penetration. Like carrying a JHP in a .380 or .32 auto, they're putting expansion ahead of penetration. A .380 will give adequate (just) penetration with a hard cast or FMJ. Add in a JHP and (in my opinion), you've taken away it's one "must have".

On the flip side, if you carry a round you know will perforate your target every damn time, and you carry that round in areas where there are a lot of people, that's just negligent. Too me it's about striking a balance. I think the FBI's requirement of 12" penetration under all circumstances is very well thought out. Regardless of expanded bullet size, if that bullet doesn't reach 12" penetration in calibrated ballistics gel, it's rejected. I think that's reasonable.

But if you find your carry round penetrates 30" under all circumstances, then the pendulum may have swung a bit too far.

Still, your choice to carry the hard cast as a reload is a pretty good idea. Reasoning, if the first magazine doesn't get the job done, you may need a "specialty" round to penetrate barriers to shut down the enemy.

The Remington 240 SJHP will not out penetrate some 45 ACP standard pressure loads since it is very soft and opens like an old silver dollar. The wound channel is indeed impressive. Of there are limits to every thing including eating.
Ayyob's article is filled with BS rendering it less than meaningful. I read so called experts claim that 9mm penetrates hard barriers better than 45 ACP and that was probably true at one time but no longer is that true. I shot 3- 55 gallon drums lined up with 9mm +P 124 grain XTP against Hornady Critical Duty 220 grain +P they both penetrated 5 sides and both were stopped by side 6. The difference is the 45 left large holes all the way and actually split side 6 that I could see through. Bottom line the 9mm did not out penetrate the 45 in metal or my wood test.

Over penetration has always been an issue thus the need for knowing what is beyond your target. A serious shooter will adjust his shot angle to ensure that a pass through has no negative consequences. This is not new doctrine.

I was paid to attend some training w/ Ayoob in his hayday during the '80s. His retention and other hands on techniques were a joke that depended on a compliant opponent for success. We trained in helmets w/ a mouthguard and cup. He did not enjoy being challenged or hurt.


mike r

Chit happens on the street!!

That's surprising because I figured an honorary reserve police officer (in a town of 3,000 people) would be a bad mama-jama.



Travis

Fugg yeah!

Nobody knows that better than Ayoob.



Travis