Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Still think over-penetration is a non-issue? Read this...

JWP and others who mentioned Jelly Bryce.. Not to derail this discussion, but this looks like a great read.. Col Charles Askins was an interesting guy, but Bryce looks outstanding.. Thanks for the info.. Please continue the discussion...

My grandad grew up in the same area Bryce lived in. He said when he was a kid that Bryce would put on a shooting expo at the local fair. His finale was to have a boy from the audience throw a silver dollar as high as he could and he would shoot it out of the air with a M70 in 270. The hunt was then on for the dollar as it was finders keepers.

Kid, interesting story.. What state would that have happened in??
Tales like this are so often lost to history.. Just order the Bryce books.. Got carried away and ordered one about Hamer and a Texas Ranger book.. Thanks for the story..

Now on with the discussion..

SW Oklahoma. My grandad was raised between Broxton and Alden. Bryce lived in the Mtn View area. The fair probably took place in Carnagie. Broxton, Alden, and to some degree Mtn View are all ghost towns now.

Another friend of mine, who is from the Mtn View area, his grandfather was good friends with Bryce until his death.

I have and will have a lot of respect for Clint Smith. We all say stupid stuff occasionally...

I view Massad Ayoob as a guy who had a message that needed to be heard.

IMO, that message was delivered 30 some years ago. Still he wants to be heard, so he comes up with some off the wall stuff...

I got no issue with those who want to read him and quote him. Don't take it too far, and hold the angst...

Kid, you should write down as much as you can about that situation. I done it a couple times with older friends, and failed to do so with a couple other much to my dismay...

I say just choose a sensible weapon/load, be able to use it, and get on with life.

Anything but writing 101

Way too much common sense in that post.

No good, I would be labeled a racist. I really am one even though I have friends of all colors and respect and love them. It is those that break the law or suck from the tax payers I hate.
See them every day at the meat counter, toss the most expensive meat in the cart until it is full, wine and smokes too. Run the SNAP card. Most weigh 300 to 400# and kids are fat. How do you get fat if you don't work?
If you have ever been out of work, did you try to get food stamps? Big stinking joke! Yes I am a racist and it does not matter what color the dip is.
The only good BG is a dead one.
I have always said to cure DC or some cities is to fly over and dump drugs and cheap guns.
I love the cops standing back and letting them kill each other. My chile was a good boy, broke dat window and gived me a big TV. Said yo is po, go back fo the DVD player and stop at the drug sto fo some good smack. Bama will not let anyone hurt you, put them in jail.
I would use napalm on the streets.
If I was a judge and you killed, you will hang tomorrow at dawn, no appeals and 20 years on the peoples dime.
A felon with a gun, instant life, federal offense not upheld.
Have a carry permit, go into DC with a gun and you will be arrested. Be black and you can't be stopped so the gun you stole is now in the city. Great country or what?

Well you could have credibility issues with his conclusions . as for the data if you have credibility issues with that that means you suspect he could be lying about the data . So I'll ask straight up, do you think he's lying?

I don't always agree with his conclusions but I've never seen anything to make me think he was flat out lying. in that business is just way too easy to be caught in a lie, and if you are caught the shooting community would essentially run you out of your job. The man has been doing it for nearly 40 years if he had a habit of lying about data he would've been caught. given that the data presented is consistent with the experiences of other departments I personally don't question the data even though I do question his conclusions.

I have learned a lot in this thread....water heaters and Tempurpedics can stop Gold Dots, forevah!

And I too would use napalm on the streets....because its over-penetration is a non-issue.

Who is Ayoob?

Gotta read my posts, Bro. Never said Ayoob was "lying". I said his credibility comes up short, due to a lack of experience as a street cop. If you haven't "been there and done that", you gotta get your data somewhere, so you use data from other sources, instead of personal experience. Doing traffic stops on hay-balers in a 1-stoplight town in New Hampshire doesn't qualify. Again, Ayoob is a good writer and apparently a nice guy. He doesn't 'LIE" but he writes articles about what he knows sells (gunfights and shooting), pimps himself off to defense attorneys as an expert (it's easy to get court-qualified on most any subject) and travels the country with his LFI roadshow (at least, that's what he used to call his courses). His conclusions are sometimes based on stuff ("data") that's wrong, but he doesn't know any better, because he's never been in a shooting, or even an almost-shooting. Some of the stuff he puts out as "data" is incorrect or flat-out dumb, but he goes by what he's been told by others, or what he's read, like most everyone else. It's a buyer's market for shooting instructors that teach you what to expect in a gunfight; most are full of BS. I'd rather listen to folks that have personal experience, several times over. They're out there; people like Kyle Lamb, Scotty Reitz, Larry Mudgett or Bill Allard. You just gotta be careful picking your "expert". It's your ass, after all.
Bob

I follow you, but what he's reporting isn't HIS data, it's NYPD data. So either he's lying about NYPD's data, grossly misrepresenting the data, or the data is correct. Now if it was his data, that would be very different. But he's presenting this as NYPD's data so one theoretically could cross check the data to see if it was being represented accurately. Two of his editors are retired cops, and would have access to the same data. Also, at the time he writes the article, he would have been required to submit his source data to the editor. That's so the editor can determine if it's correct, or perhaps put up a chart, or to cross check his work if they so desired.

Now clearly others disagree with me, but I don't find it likely that he lied or mid-represented the actual data. I've never felt he was dumb, and to do so would be incredibly dumb because it would be SO easy to get caught. I just don't see him putting his entire livelihood on the line so he could fake a point...but that's just me. Additionally the data lines up with news articles I have read back in the late '80's and early '90's of officers who had been shot by their partners via pass through.

If the data is his, then everything would be dependent solely on the presenter.

I guess we'll just have to disagree. I find the data credible, you and others don't. So that makes the entire thread rather moot.

Regards sir...
Kevin

Well it was just supposed to be just a nuanced discussion as a "food for thought". But it quickly got very positional and off track. Next thing I know, there's the hint that I'm somehow now advocating rounds with insufficient penetration, because on the internet people seem to always have to push things to an extreme...when all it was was a "sometimes you can have too much of a good thing".

But you're right...absolutely right. Sensible weapon and load, then be done with it and now worry about the "loose nut behind the trigger". If some don't believe that there is such a thing as too much of a good thing, that's fine with me.

He goes on to say that is a rate of 33%.

[quote] 17 Officers Shot Due to Over Penetration
The Times continued, “In that same period, 44 police officers were struck by gunfire using
the old ammunition: 21 were hit directly, 2 were struck by bullets that ricocheted and[b]

What is the realavance of this? If you are down range of any target or near the target you are likely to get hit. That is the bottom line.

Quote by Dr. Martin Fackler