Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Still think over-penetration is a non-issue? Read this...

According to the stats more people were hit by shots that missed the bad guy than shots that passed through the bad guy.

So it seems like a good place to start would be teaching people to hit what they're aiming at and then worry about ammo selection.

Exactly! You always get it, sadly some never do.

Some people can never see the forest for the trees................

MM

I got my first badge in 76. 32 of the following 39 years have been full time, as in 'primary source of income' LE. About 4 years of that was in a major metro area. 12 of it was as the investigator for a prosecuting attorney. I have talked to Dr. Fackler and had him review some work I did on a murder case relevant to terminal ballistics. I am not unfamiliar with the courts, rules of evidence and 'expert witnesses' most of whom I consider overpaid hookers in a suit. I started reading Ayoob back when Jimmah Cahtah was pretending to be president. I wouldn't walk across the street for free admission to one of his seminars, if that tells you anything.

I've dissected somewhere north of 50 shootings and attended a few. What I have done, seen and learned is relevant to those incidents; but you can draw some logical conclusions about what is most likely to get the job done. The problem, gentlemen, is that you never know who or what you might need to shoot with your pistol. It might be a 140 pound crackhead, or a 250 pound muscle-bound product of the prison weight room with his arms up in front of him. Hell it might be a pair of 100+ pound attack dogs coming in like torpedoes from 11 O'Clock.

You cannot cover all those bases with a round that won't shoot through the 140 pound addict, 100% of the time. You have to shoot well and there is no substitute for that. Based on what I've seen and done, I will always err on the side of using 'enough gun' and ample penetration. The .40 with good 165's or 180's is about as small as I'll go. I prefer and carry a 45 auto with 230's, usually JHP's. It doesn't bother me in the least to carry it with hardball.

Sounds like Ayoob was an internet badazz before the internet.

Thats impressive!

Is that sort of like "hope for the best, but prepare for the worst"?

Where have I heard that before?

MM

Ayoob is self serving & interested in putting $$$$ in his pocket.

MM

…..and yet, ironically MANY (i.e. Scotty Reitz) of the most prestigious SWAT organizations in the country trained under Jeff Cooper……a man who never spent a day as a street cop (hay bailing community or otherwise)…..a bunch went to the Chapman Academy (Ray spent a short time as a county sheriff as a range officer but certainly not to your street-cred qualification)…….in the early 80's, SEALS and DELTA worked with John Shaw and Bill Wilson, men who have never spent a day in ANY uniform nor heard a shot fired in anger……..other elite military units worked with Bill Rogers a great man who AFAIK was never in the military and I don't recall hearing of any FBI firefights that he was in…….If being bloodied "on the street" is your criteria, of the original trainers only Clint Smith, Chuck Taylor and John Farnam qualify….I don't believe Hackathorn's ever seen the elephant…..on the LEO side Jim Cirillo is about it and Ken and Jim both frequently worked with Jeff and Ray…….the point is that the guys that you mentioned all learned their craft initially from competitive shooters like (dare I say it) Ayoob……..if you want to see REALLY ridiculous training, check out things being offered by supposed ex-SpecOps guys just back from Mesopotamia….i.e. "Shoot like a Seal," etc…….or guys like James Yeager (he's the epitome of your criteria).

I really don't have a dog in this fight-----Ayoob is as idiosyncratic as a person can be outside of captivity……but that doesn't mean that he hasn't offered something of value over the years.

JMO----of course I could be wrong.

Exactly. There's too many people out there in the police/military instruction business that are 'way better, with more experience and less problems with credibility to rely on Ayoob. It's a buyer's market. There's also too many schools taught by wanna-bees and self-promoters like Ayoob. Pick your expert carefully.
Bob

….how do you feel about Tiger McKee?

Yeah, you're wrong. Yeager? That's your hero? You GOT to be kidding. The Iraq contractor-coward on Route Irish? The only fight he was in, he hid in a ditch without returning fire. You've just proven my point, regarding "experts". Pick carefully. But most of the guys you've mentioned DO have something to offer...superb marksmanship and teaching skills. Gunfights aren't the ONLY criteria, but it's nice to have. Stellar shooting skills (and the ability to teach them) are also nice. Bill Wilson, Ray Chapman and Bill Rodgers (and Rob Leatham, also not a "killer") are superb marksmen. Ayoob ain't in their league.

As far as being taught by Cooper...Scotty Reitz, Larry Mudgett and John Helms were ALREADY decorated LA city cops when they attended Gunsite and used what Cooper had to offer. Cooper in turn used their experiences as SWAT cops and borrowed them as instructors at Gunsite (most LAPD SWAT dudes used to do tours at Gunsite as instructors) to validate his teachings. Let's see...Jeff Cooper. Decorated career Marine, WW II vet, more than one gunfight. Ability to listen and an outstanding trainer. Definitely not Yeager. Incidentally, Kyle Lamb, former 1st SFOD-D (DELTA) was never a cop, either. Lots of creds, though. Time "outside the wire", great instructor and a superb competitive marksman. Pretty good writer, too.

Yeah, you're definitely wrong. But that's OK. Sign on with and read Ayoob; I guess you can do worse. Again, lots of experts out there. Pick wisely.
Bob

In the 70s and 80s police shooting techniques and overall tactics were in an evolutionary state. LAPD SWAT because of their intensity of real world operations set the standard and the pace for that evolution at the time. Scott Reitz was a leader in that group.

Chapman, Rogers et al focused on shooting w/ precision and speed. I don't recall them teaching or claiming expertise in hands on techniques.

The practical shooting world now led by innovators schooled in the GWOT who have the desire and skills to teach the new and constantly evolving skillset.

There are still an abundance of posers, personified by Yeager.


mike r

I just want to clarify something here... I don't think a man has to have notches on his gun to offer credible input on shooting well. I've trained under some guys I could outshoot, but I learned from them all the same. Hell there are 19 year old kids with more gunfight experience than I've got. War produces gunmen, whether they are interested in the craft or not.

I do have a problem with people who pretend to be veteran street cops, combat experts, legal experts etc. when they are not.

I don't think it can be summed up any better than that.



Travis

Some people just are naturals at salesmanship. They could sell ice to an Eskimo.

Apparantly I typed quicker than the comprehension took place-----I meant Yeager in the same, but greater, ridicule that's being heaped on Ayoob…….we agree that he's a joke (that was my point) Watch, "A Man in Full" (or something like that) and you'll hear Scotty crediting Cooper, not vice versa…..if street creds were the significant issue, why would they go there in the first place.
I'm not a Ayoob groupee, neither will I discount someone just because they're weird……..by your standards of criteria, the pinnacle of defensive hand gunning should be the speed rock and FBI crouch…..that worked on the street for Hamer, Bryce and all those guys…..they certainly knew more based on actual street experience than Cooper or Chapman……

….but then, I guess I'm wrong……..logic doesn't always work I guess….

Actually the speed rocks works. I teach a version of it and know two officers who will tell you they are alive because of it. One of them bitched about it during training and we had a good laugh about that.

Yeah, logic would work fine, if you read my post and didn't ignore what I said to push home your non-issue. Read what I posted about SWAT dudes training at Gunsite. And being used as trainers in-turn by Cooper. Good trainers exchange "data". I also know the reverence that Reitz and the others I mentioned have for Cooper (LAPD NOV '84 recruit class was taught the Cooper "modern technique" by Helms & Mudgett).

I love to argue, but you need to do MUCHO better. You lost the argument when you mentioned that goofball Yeager. I only said to pick your expert wisely. Too easy, if you want to learn properly. There's way too many REALLY good, experienced people out there that have something to offer than to pick wanna-bees and self-promoters. Don't know where you got the FBI speed rock and crouch thing...never mentioned. It's an old technique. Sometimes it still works. But old TIMERS do have some relevance. I'll listen to Bill Allard any day over an Ayoob character. And that's the point, Mr gmoats. Pick your expert wisely. If you wanna argue some more, PM me; we can talk instructors and experience; love to hear about yours.
Bob

Let's see...no military, police or competitive experience at all, but he used to build motorcycles (that's cool). His "credentials" are that his dad is a retired SF COL (Officers don't train; NCOs do). His main claim to fame is his friendship with Mr Smith. And I'd be REALLY leery of someone who calls himself "Tiger". I'll pass.
Bob

If anybody hasn't read the book Glock, you'll love the portion regarding Ayoob.




Travis