Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Still think over-penetration is a non-issue? Read this...

What's the speed rock?

Had a big guy here. Huge man, white house security to boot. set a target at about 10 feet and could not hit paper with his Block. Friend Pete came down and asked to shoot his gun. I shot too and we both took the center out. Big bluff never came back.

It never ceases to amaze me how much animosity so many gun people hold against Massad Ayoob. From the amount of vitriol spewed out on the internet if I had no other information on Ayoob to go by I'd wonder that he must be guilty of crimes against humanity on par with Hitler or Stalin.

Jay-zus... when a guy like gmoats, who is not only a really nice guy but a very competent and highly trained shooter, gets slammed like RGK just did (for the apparent crime of offering up a reasonable viewpoint that failed to condemn Ayoob to Hell without appeal) I have to wonder why I ever bother to come back and read the endless bullschit on this here Handguns page.

Here's how the thread goes:

1. Kevin's OP brings up the question of overpenetration. He cites an Ayoob article as a reference.

2. The Handguns forum explodes.

3. Ayoob is accused of every possible bad act under the sun. He is accused of training people wrong by people who either haven't taken his training or took a class from him a couple decades ago.

4. Ayoob's background and personal foibles are presented as "proof" that he's no good. He's old, he's puny, his techniques suck, he's bald, etc, etc.

5. People who try to get back to the original question and discuss it rationally are attacked with the same vehemence with which Ayoob is being attacked.

I have no clue as to why this happens, but for some reason there's a ton of folks on th' innanet who 1)consider themselves more expert than the average innanet person, and 2) think Ayoob is the Antichrist. It defies reason.

I've taken a lot of training from Ayoob. I know him personally pretty well and I like him and respect him. I've incorporated a lot of his training into my toolbox, and wonder of wonders, my guns haven't exploded or melted and I've yet to be told my training/practice is wrong by some pretty high-end trainers. I've discarded some of the things Ayoob says/teaches in favor of better material, but not much. His training doesn't much go against anything I've run when training under other well-respected trainers elsewhere. Major "names" I've trained under include John Farnham, Ken Hackathorn, Larry Vickers, Clint Smith, Jim Cirillo, Jeff Gonzalez, Tim Lau, Scott Reitz, Ray Chapman, Paul Howe, Pat Rogers, Clint Smith, names which might ring a bell or two with some other 24HCF members. FWIW, I've sat at a dinner table with Mas Ayoob and 4 or 5 of the above list more than once, and not one time did I hear any of these people accuse Ayoob of the kinds of crimes against humanity that have been raised on this thread. And I've trained under a lot of other people whose names almost nobody on this board would recognize, but who are well-known in the real world where real people shoot real guns in real situations, and again, and I don't hear much Ayoob-bashing in those situations, either.

I've been attending major law enforcement conferences such as ASLET, IALEFI, and ILEETA for nearly 2 decades. Ayoob is a regular at each, and his opinions are respected among the many firearms and law enforcement training experts there, and his opinions are taken seriously by men and women who have seen the elephant, and who train other people what to do with their elephants. That's a pretty high vote of confidence from people who know what they're talking about.

I guess what I'm saying here is that I think most of y'all's opinions, jabs, jibes, and detractions are so far off the mark as to be ridiculous. Fact is most of y'all haven't done schit in your lives to make a lick of difference in the world of training or the use of deadly force, so I guess you have to make yourselves feel better by trying to drag down someone who has.

The only reason I bothered to write this post is that I'm stuck in a boring situation with a bunch of pudknockers I have nothing but contempt for today, and I can't say schit to them without hurting their feelers and making my job here even harder than it already is. So I decided to let YOU pudknockers have the benefit of my contempt, since y'all's feelers are of no interest to me, and you can't make my job suck any worse than it already does. You're welcome.

Now quick, jump up and defend your bullschit opinions, lies, accusations, and make sure you foam at the mouth extra hard to prove how serious you are. Make sure you point out more of Ayoob's foibles. While you're at it, point out MY foibles, real and imagined, as proof that your opinion is more righteous than mine.

He does look a little like Uncle Joe, if you think about it.

True dat. And Joe Stalin was a short little f u cker like Ayoob, too.

OK, I got it; you're an Ayoob fanboy. Never really slammed Ayoob; I just related my experiences with a class he taught, and stated what he actually does for a living. I also read a lot of his stuff. I don't think he's improved much. Only point being that there are better, more qualified people out there. MUCH better. But you pick your expert; it's your money. I don't think anything I said was incorrect. If so, let me know. Maybe Ayoob could do an oil change on that toupee, though.
Bob

Thanks for reinforcing my point, pudknocker.

Must be a Democrat; no argument or reply, so beat up the messenger and sling insults. Too easy. Lots of critical thought and objective analysis there, Doc.
Bob

I hope your day gets better.

mike r

What's a speed rock?

Small, flat rock thrown at high-speed.
Bob

[video:youtube]UQw8XpI1TRg[/video]

Essentially this, with sensible modifications to get off the line of attack and conserve some ammo.

https://youtu.be/UQw8XpI1TRg?t=10s

Don't give the nine junk. i will shoot the creep in the belly to have guts blown out 20' or a load of no. 6 shot to the face at a few feet, Buckshot better.
A load of shot to the balls will keep every creep from doing wrong again. That creep will suffer and talk at a high freq from then on.
Darn right, blow the bastard to hell. Pimp loads like a .380 are so sad. A 1911 is even low on my list. Shotgun is best.

Are you drunk?

That's part of what's wrong with the firearms training industry. Instead of teaching concepts and principles (draw fast and shoot as fast as you can, accurately, as many times as you have to), we're giving mediocre tactics cool names and teaching people to follow step by step instructions.

That video doesn't accurately represent the "Speed Rock" technique at all. The Speed Rock was probably the first modern retention shooting position widely taught back in the 70's. It served as the foundation for most of the retention techniques that are used today.

It's worth noting that everything "new" owes its existence to something developed long ago, and if anyone thinks the wheel was invented in your lifetime then you're just a silly fool.

I had to look it up! I had no idea what it was!

this is the more logical question.

Huge know it all ego's respond out of anger when challenged, normal reaction. Liberals are the same, they are just better than you, and you should shut up and listen to them. Kevin comes up with some knot head stuff from time to time, this be a time.