Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Would you pay for it?

For a shooting competition, without the competition?

A local monthly shooting match usually consists of about five stages and costs around $25. If somebody set it up and let you shoot it, with whatever you wanted from whatever kind of holster you wanted, taking as much time as you wanted....Would you pay $30 to go shoot purely for training or practice or whatever you wanted to call it?

The hitch would be that there would be no timers or scoring allowed, that'd be the only way to keep it from turning into competition.

Would you pay to do it?

No.

...have been running such a program since 1991.... Last month I started working for a new indoor range (Granite State Range Hudson, NH) that asked me to start the same program at their facility.

The program is geared for people who carry concealed and want realistic training and practice on a regular basis. When a person comes into the program they need at minimum basic shooting and safe gun handling skills. They also need to have taken a course on the use of deadly force as when shooting the scenarios they have to know when they can shoot as there are scenarios that to shoot would land you in criminal or civil court. In the scenarios one is not shooting against other shooters, you are only looking to successfully survive the encounter not only physically but without landing in court.

When someone comes into the program there is a three hour class and shooting ability evaluation. If someone is new to firearms they attend "Base" classes that are skill building. Once they have their skills down they pass to the High Speed Group. These sessions comprise of blind scenario(s) followed by practice drills.

What I find really funny is that almost all of the IDPA/IPSC shooters who have come to this program completely screw up a blind scenario. They can't get the clock out of their head, shoot way too fast, don't interact with their opponents and don't understand that "there are no rules". Also since this is done "blind' you can't choreograph your every move or watch how others do it before you shoot. One IDPA shooter called me a few days after a session and said "You know, I drove 45 miles to get there and fired ONE SHOT in the scenario. But I learned more from that one shot than a whole day at an IDPA match". He never went back to IDPA and shot with us for the next 9 years.

...so yes there is a market out there for such a program.

Bob

Convenience Store Robbery...



One of our younger shooters doing it...





BG got one between the running lights...



he also made his hits on the backup guy...many of the adults missed that shot...



Hostage situation...



[img]http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/ASG/20130524_124649_zps54fd685b.jpg[/img]

Using cover drills...

[img]http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/ASG/022606TP018.jpg[/img]

Low light drills...

[img]http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/ASG/022606TP029.jpg[/img]

Theater shooting scenario we did about two years before the Colorado shooting...that is me on the floor being dragged out...

[img]http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/ASG/SS012807082.jpg[/img]

Roll playing....

A lot of ranges around here don't let a person draw, for obvious liability reasons. So the ability to train like that, oh hell yes.

yeah, that looks like a cool deal.

Totally different circumstances...these are organized events run by instructors and usually several range officers present. Also not just anyone can shoot the scenarios...you have to prove your way in. I don't believe that the owner of Granite Sate Range allows draw and fire either except under supervision...I wouldn't either.

Bob

No.



Travis

If it adds value to my knowledge, skills and training base, yes. RJM's sessions are a perfect example. Time and points are just two variables among many. I am not aware of force on force or simulator training that is timed (although I guess you could do it and some people may do it), and there are lots of ways to fail besides going slow and having less than perfect hits. Real life often involves going slow, dialogue, communications equipment, tactics, shooting skill and working with others.

As for not scoring, I would hope that a participant at least gets to determine if the threat was neutralized.

I also know that it takes a lot of time and effort to formulate stages properly and to set them up and take them down, so the cost is worth it.

I would consider spending it on sporting clays, if I were you.

That is just fugging awesome rjm.

That, to me, is training.

You mentioned some return "range work" to me the other day but this is something else altogether!

PS. What is your biggest shooting angle? Is it still "forward biased"?

Our local ranges runs just about the same deal for speed steel and idpa'ish each 1 Saturday a month. Both are $20 but the speed steel can be shot more then once at $5/ extra gun.

They run timers but its all for fun with no prizes.

We shoot it occasionally for the fun of it but typically shoot at a buddies farm as he built shooting bays and has a full set of plates and a dueling tree.

I used to run a secondary match after running an IDPA main match (I was the MD for IDPA at my club). It was free to anyone who shot that day, and we could run handguns, rifles, and shotguns. We would setup scenarios using the props and targets that were already out from the main IDPA match. It was fun, but ultimately I quit doing it because it was a lot of work and shooter interest was fairly low. Some of this may have been because it was tacked on to the back of a regular match. I believe I ran a few as a stand alone match but they were not as well attended as the regular IDPA matches.

I believe that for *most* the timer, scoring, and match results add to the shooting experience. Otherwise it is kind of like bowling without keeping score and only rolling 7 frames.

nope

Run it like IDPA, USPSA, 3GN with a RO but without the timers, I can see a market for it. I am afraid too many are too cheap to buy into such a thing though, especially at $30.

I would!
I haven't shot Competition in several years, but I really miss the old ISPC days. And I know that I shot when competitively, I was a much better shot than I am now.

These have been interesting responses.

The biggest complaint I've heard about competitive shooters / shooting is that people "game" the stages and use unrealistic techniques and gear. (Which is a completely stupid and irrational argument BTW.)

The ONLY way to eliminate gaming is to eliminate a timer and rankings. I'd be 100% for people checking their hits, as long as there are no rankings or scores kept.

The ironic part is that when "training" is offered a lot of people don't want to spend $25-$30 to "practice". (And since the setup and targets and range cost money, the fee is unavoidable.)

What I've found is that a lot of people, not necessarily here, have no desire to shoot under any sort of pressure or with anyone watching them at all. And ridiculing what other people do is always easier than doing something yourself, so that's the route they take.
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If a shooting match without the "match" would generate interest, it might be something that you could make a few bucks at.

Just wait. Your day is coming.

Agreed, Eric. And it might just be a good business for you to start up on your own. Just an ideal! You could be the new Clint Smith.

With unique props, i.e. twisters, droppers, pop-up no-shoots, movers, etc. I would, for static square-range shooting, no I wouldn't……However, I'd pay $30 for a run thru the fun-house at Gunsite or the Terminator at Thunder Ranch----neither of those are timed nor scored (traditionally)……the problem is, you'd need an elaborate set up with beaucoup props to make it worthwhile for the shooter---probably no way in the world to make it worthwhile for the person running the event….