Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Would you pay for it?

For a shooting competition, without the competition?

A local monthly shooting match usually consists of about five stages and costs around $25. If somebody set it up and let you shoot it, with whatever you wanted from whatever kind of holster you wanted, taking as much time as you wanted....Would you pay $30 to go shoot purely for training or practice or whatever you wanted to call it?

The hitch would be that there would be no timers or scoring allowed, that'd be the only way to keep it from turning into competition.

Would you pay to do it?

No.

...have been running such a program since 1991.... Last month I started working for a new indoor range (Granite State Range Hudson, NH) that asked me to start the same program at their facility.

The program is geared for people who carry concealed and want realistic training and practice on a regular basis. When a person comes into the program they need at minimum basic shooting and safe gun handling skills. They also need to have taken a course on the use of deadly force as when shooting the scenarios they have to know when they can shoot as there are scenarios that to shoot would land you in criminal or civil court. In the scenarios one is not shooting against other shooters, you are only looking to successfully survive the encounter not only physically but without landing in court.

When someone comes into the program there is a three hour class and shooting ability evaluation. If someone is new to firearms they attend "Base" classes that are skill building. Once they have their skills down they pass to the High Speed Group. These sessions comprise of blind scenario(s) followed by practice drills.

What I find really funny is that almost all of the IDPA/IPSC shooters who have come to this program completely screw up a blind scenario. They can't get the clock out of their head, shoot way too fast, don't interact with their opponents and don't understand that "there are no rules". Also since this is done "blind' you can't choreograph your every move or watch how others do it before you shoot. One IDPA shooter called me a few days after a session and said "You know, I drove 45 miles to get there and fired ONE SHOT in the scenario. But I learned more from that one shot than a whole day at an IDPA match". He never went back to IDPA and shot with us for the next 9 years.

...so yes there is a market out there for such a program.

Bob

Convenience Store Robbery...



One of our younger shooters doing it...





BG got one between the running lights...



he also made his hits on the backup guy...many of the adults missed that shot...



Hostage situation...



[img]http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/ASG/20130524_124649_zps54fd685b.jpg[/img]

Using cover drills...

[img]http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/ASG/022606TP018.jpg[/img]

Low light drills...

[img]http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/ASG/022606TP029.jpg[/img]

Theater shooting scenario we did about two years before the Colorado shooting...that is me on the floor being dragged out...

[img]http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/ASG/SS012807082.jpg[/img]

Roll playing....

A lot of ranges around here don't let a person draw, for obvious liability reasons. So the ability to train like that, oh hell yes.

yeah, that looks like a cool deal.

Totally different circumstances...these are organized events run by instructors and usually several range officers present. Also not just anyone can shoot the scenarios...you have to prove your way in. I don't believe that the owner of Granite Sate Range allows draw and fire either except under supervision...I wouldn't either.

Bob

No.



Travis

If it adds value to my knowledge, skills and training base, yes. RJM's sessions are a perfect example. Time and points are just two variables among many. I am not aware of force on force or simulator training that is timed (although I guess you could do it and some people may do it), and there are lots of ways to fail besides going slow and having less than perfect hits. Real life often involves going slow, dialogue, communications equipment, tactics, shooting skill and working with others.

As for not scoring, I would hope that a participant at least gets to determine if the threat was neutralized.

I also know that it takes a lot of time and effort to formulate stages properly and to set them up and take them down, so the cost is worth it.

I would consider spending it on sporting clays, if I were you.

That is just fugging awesome rjm.

That, to me, is training.

You mentioned some return "range work" to me the other day but this is something else altogether!

PS. What is your biggest shooting angle? Is it still "forward biased"?

Our local ranges runs just about the same deal for speed steel and idpa'ish each 1 Saturday a month. Both are $20 but the speed steel can be shot more then once at $5/ extra gun.

They run timers but its all for fun with no prizes.

We shoot it occasionally for the fun of it but typically shoot at a buddies farm as he built shooting bays and has a full set of plates and a dueling tree.

I used to run a secondary match after running an IDPA main match (I was the MD for IDPA at my club). It was free to anyone who shot that day, and we could run handguns, rifles, and shotguns. We would setup scenarios using the props and targets that were already out from the main IDPA match. It was fun, but ultimately I quit doing it because it was a lot of work and shooter interest was fairly low. Some of this may have been because it was tacked on to the back of a regular match. I believe I ran a few as a stand alone match but they were not as well attended as the regular IDPA matches.

I believe that for *most* the timer, scoring, and match results add to the shooting experience. Otherwise it is kind of like bowling without keeping score and only rolling 7 frames.

nope

Run it like IDPA, USPSA, 3GN with a RO but without the timers, I can see a market for it. I am afraid too many are too cheap to buy into such a thing though, especially at $30.

I would!
I haven't shot Competition in several years, but I really miss the old ISPC days. And I know that I shot when competitively, I was a much better shot than I am now.

These have been interesting responses.

The biggest complaint I've heard about competitive shooters / shooting is that people "game" the stages and use unrealistic techniques and gear. (Which is a completely stupid and irrational argument BTW.)

The ONLY way to eliminate gaming is to eliminate a timer and rankings. I'd be 100% for people checking their hits, as long as there are no rankings or scores kept.

The ironic part is that when "training" is offered a lot of people don't want to spend $25-$30 to "practice". (And since the setup and targets and range cost money, the fee is unavoidable.)

What I've found is that a lot of people, not necessarily here, have no desire to shoot under any sort of pressure or with anyone watching them at all. And ridiculing what other people do is always easier than doing something yourself, so that's the route they take.
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If a shooting match without the "match" would generate interest, it might be something that you could make a few bucks at.

Just wait. Your day is coming.

Agreed, Eric. And it might just be a good business for you to start up on your own. Just an ideal! You could be the new Clint Smith.

With unique props, i.e. twisters, droppers, pop-up no-shoots, movers, etc. I would, for static square-range shooting, no I wouldn't……However, I'd pay $30 for a run thru the fun-house at Gunsite or the Terminator at Thunder Ranch----neither of those are timed nor scored (traditionally)……the problem is, you'd need an elaborate set up with beaucoup props to make it worthwhile for the shooter---probably no way in the world to make it worthwhile for the person running the event….

Yes, it still forward biased but with the concrete sidewalls one can move/draw safely anywhere in a 180* arc and if the shooter is from say 7-10 yards from the backstop we can put out targets at about 110*.

unless you are LEO, or military, my local range won't let you do much in the way of tactical training.
So in my case, yeah, I'd pay to be able to practice more realistic things than the range now allows.

Laser Tag for grownups! I like it. With competent instruction, people could learn a lot without having to spend the big bucks for a week at Thunder Ranch or Gunsite.

If you set up 4-5 stages with increasing complexity as you moved forward, it may appeal to the average Joe. Repeat each stage 2x perhaps.

Locally it is hard to get LEO's out to shoot in our competitions. I don't think they want to be out shot by civilians.

Next question.

For the people who said yes, is there anything keeping you from just going out to a local idpa/uspsa match and using it as training? Just ignore the timer at a regular match rather than wait for a match with no timer?

Just curious. I think there is a market for this, I'd just like to know why the market exists.

...that is "unfortunately" what I have been doing for the last two years. I just shoot the stages as tactically correct as allowed and screw the score.

I say "unfortunately" mainly because very very few of the scenarios that the clubs I have shot at have anything to do with reality. They generally start you in a very tactically unsound position and it usually doesn't get any better from there.

When I have said something about it the attitude of both those who run the matches and most of those who are shooting is "Bob it's only a game"....and that is what it is...just another shooting game that ingrains bad habits and has little to do with training let alone reality....

The more procedural error points I amass the better I feel...

Bob

It's kinda like MMA to me. People get really into it and end up thinking that ground fighting and Brazilian judo is the end all and be all of open hand fighting - striking techniques going by the wayside.

They train that way and cannot see past that game.

Outside, the guy you are pounding on the ground will simply unzip you at the belly button with a knife or his buddy will come in and from behind and kick you in the head or just push you into incoming traffic...

That's part of the mindset that I think "training matches" could help.

I'm sure that 100 years ago IPSC and IDPA were supposed to be practical, but today neither of them are. IDPA is completely impractical, it's just in denial about it's impracticality.

Today, they're just a sport. And trying to make them something else is frustrating for the tactical guys and the guy running the match according to the organization's rules, only to have the tactical guys constantly complaining and ridiculing him / the sport.

I think it's akin to showing up at a Thursday night softball game and complaining that it's not realistic training for hitting people with sticks. That's not it's purpose. Getting good at swinging a stick might be an incidental benefit, just like becoming a better / more accurate trigger puller is an incidental benefit of USPSA....but tactical training isn't the purpose of either organization.

So rather than trying to force one organization (USPSA / IDPA) to be something it's not, I wonder about the feasibility of something new to fill the void in the market. Thus, this thread.
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Of course, if you set up a regular local "training match" I suppose you'd eventually end up with the guys at the other end of the spectrum....USPSA wash-outs who'd be showing up at the training match and trying to time and score and rank everybody.

That brings up a good point. I suppose the support for a training match would be pretty regional.

Within 35 minutes of my house I have five ranges that will let you rent a bay and do whatever you want. So the guys who would want to do a training match are probably already doing it.

But if you already had access to the props it could be done pretty easily I bet.

From the matches that we've run, ALL of the headache originates from the competitive aspect of a match-not the actual shooting. If you eliminate divisions and scoring and ranking and timers and gear rules....putting on a match would be a cake walk.

I have not found the regular crowd at those events to be open armed with 'newbs'. Here they seem to be a closed clique.

That makes sense (as to why you wouldn't want to go) but it's very unfortunate. I've seen people, several times, show up here just to watch and end up with a borrowed pistol and free ammo to shoot.

But nothing makes some guys more insecure than being around other guys. Then throw guns and scores into the mix and some people see everyone as a threat.

When I was shooting IPSC back in the olden days, we'd let folks run thru the matches as many times, and with as many different guns, as they liked, BUT, they had to "shoot for score" the first run. The other entries were for giggles, or to try out a new gun/different type (revolver).

They had to pay a nominal fee (for targets/pasters, etc.) for each entry, but it DID allow us all to "train" with other stuff besides their "match guns".

Strangely enough, although I was shooting a "racegun" 1911, often enough I could do just as well with my LWT Commander, or BHP, or whatever had my interest at the time.
I got pretty good with a wide variety of different guns, and never felt "unarmed" no matter what I was shooting/carrying. It's a good, good feeling.

I started off in "Combat Shooting" in 1974 before IPSC was even organized. In the "beginning" there were no "Classes" as all guns were treated the same. You had Major and Minor caliber and shooters were groups in classes of "ability". Then the Gamesmen of the 1980s started taking over and should have NEVER been allowed to use comps or optical sighting devices in the first place... Then the sponsored individuals and teams came in and with it the big money...and so Cooper's dream ended.

As to IDPA, I can still remembered when it was announced...I thought FINALLY a return to reality and immediately sent for a "rule" book... Received the book, read half way through it and threw it in the trash. Although hyped as "tactical" it was and is nothing but a shooting game.

That is why about 1992 a friend and I who had been disgusted with IPSC stared Survivor Series. It stared with about a dozen NRA Personal Protection Instructors just trying to keep sharp doing realistic scenarios with everyday carry guns. Over time more and more of our students wanted to get involved and the program just kept growing. We ended up with a lot of shooters who were not really ready for a steady diet of blind scenario shooting and started splitting the sessions into skill building and scenarios.

One major difference I found between the shooters who came to Survivors Series and IPSC/IDPA shooters is over 95%+ of the 90 registered SS shooters carried concealed almost all the time... In doing some informal surveys of IPSC/IDPA shooters less than half I have talked to carry at all.....

Training vs. Game...it's all attitude.

Bob

Personal training. Think quality instead of quantity. I'd pay to take lessons from you. Just not wing shooting.

The real problem is 90+% (just a guess) of the 'real world' civilian shooting scenarios involve no shots or a small number of shots with a small number of assailants. Read the armed citizen column to get some ideas. Very, very few shooters want to shoot a match with a total round count of a dozen spread over ten stages. I believe Rangemaster and Tom Givens runs something like you propose.

To me, it is more in the realm of personal training, which I can do at my range any time I want, as long as I am not too lazy to set it up. You can also shoot regular competition 'tactically' and I have had a few shooters do that. I am not sure what starting in a 'tactically unsound' position means, since most folks don't get to choose when and where they start the fight. If you don't like the high target and round count, view it as a series of interconnected short scenarios. You may piss most of the regular shooters off if you take an excessive amount of time, but that's the cost of being tactical.

Games will always be games and will always be gamed.

People that like playing games will be attracted to games and those that hate games will avoid games.

If the underlying question is "Would people pay for Use of Force Training?" my opinion would be yes. There is a market for people that want to be ran through scenarios involving the use of deadly force and many of them do not want it to be a dick measuring contest.




Travis

I just started shooting IDPA again, and I started to get to this point but had not really gotten 100% there until I saw this. There was no way I was going to remove a live magazine before I have the spare ready to insert or to turn my back on a threat target and run to cover without drawing because it saves time. But, I did have some dilemmas whether to kowtow to etiquette by refraining from engaging a bad guy until my discarded magazine is neatly stowed rather than shooting him while holding the discarded magazine, or whether to run the gun to slide lock to avoid the penalty for dropping a magazine with live rounds on the ground. I think I am over the dilemma stage now. Thanks for the free therapy.

That's exactly wht I do.

Our range, however, decided yo donaway with certain IdPA rules, like cover garments and such because too many people were complaining about them slowing their times and lowering their scores....