Home Forums Birds & Dogs Shotguns My how times have changed

Stopped into a LGS yesterday and they had just bought out a nice collection of guns. Included were several nice model 12s including one field grade 12ga that was just your run of the mill model 12 with a plain modified barrel on it. The outstanding feature was if it had the box and hang tag it could pass as NOS. I noted the price and it was IMHO quite reasonable certainly less than a new wingmaster and a lot of the current imports that are so popular. I was talking to the owner and he said it was priced that ways because plain barrel fixed choke 2 3/4" guns just didn't bring much anymore. What a shame it is such a beautiful piece of hunting history and good for a couple of lifetimes of service. I need it like a hole in the head but I might try and trade into before some nitwit decides to make a tactical gun out of it.

Yea, go get it before some one screws it up. Seems like lots of guys buy into the GOT to have a 3.5 inch mag to kill a duck..

I have been killing stuff with 2 3/4 inchers for a LONG time and never have I felt under gunned. Im lookin for just that rig, wish it were closer.

Knock, Knock.

How much was it ??? I'd be interested if you don't want it.

Model 12's, unless in 28ga, don't bring what they are truly worth. I think shotgunning has changed a lot and a fixed choke plain barreled 12ga pump in 2 3/4" doesn't fit most folks idea of a "useful" gun. Every time I see one priced like that I'm tempted to buy it. Times have truly changed..

Correct.

Except for the extremes choke tubes are for the most part overrated. 2 3/4 in chambers work for anything and most think working a pump is like learning a foreign language.

Addition: Watched a South Dakota local one time with a Rem 870 go to work on a group of Roosters busting out of a ditch. He had two dead in the air before most would have the gun mounted. Bang, Bang, two head flops.

Doubt if many could have kept up with a two barrel or semi.

I agree. Around here they don't bring as much as they did 30 years ago unless it's in 28ga or a model 42.
Waterfowling with steel shot and turkey hunting has reduced the desire for 2 3/4" 12ga.

A couple of days ago I saw a plain barrel IC choked 12ga model 12 in about 85% to 90% condition sell for $225. I think most of the condition issues were from 60 years of storage and not hunting as there was very little blue wear on the magazine tube from being pumped. 12 ga A5s don't bring as much around here as they used to neither do Browning Superposed in 12 and 16 ga.

410s bring top dollar no matter if they're single shot,o/u,sxs,or semi.

Most of us older guys remember this fella,Mr. 870!!!

https://www.joeletchenguns.com/mr870.htm

Rudy is a legend around here with the shooters who have been around awhile.

His father Fred also was one of the best. Olympic Gold medal winner. Grand American Handicap winner along with multiple other titles at State shoots and all the big trap events.

When Rudy wanted to start shooting, Fred said this is what you need to do, and once he gave him the basics he had to shoot a minimum of 500 rounds in a session. He started on station one and he couldn't move to station two until he ran 100 straight on one. Whatever station he started on, it was 100 straight until he moved to the next.

Rudy also knew how to hold two extra shells in his left hand and feed them into the opening one at a time when he emptied the the magazine. Game wardens sneaking around, would come out and try and arrest him for not having a plug in the magazine. Rudy would show them it would only hold three and then would show them how he did it. People who shot with him say shots 4 and 5 happened as quick as the pump and trigger pull.

Joel, Rudy's son also is an accomplished shooter and I think won the same Grand American doubles event as Fred and Rudy. If not he has finished on top of a couple Grand American events.

Joel's Daughter Becca has also won an event at the Grand and shoots better than good.

Closest I've come to a Rudy connection is knowing Joel and shooting with him a few times. Along with having my hands on Rudy's Parker 28ga.

Wow! $225 makes me rethink if this was such a good deal or not, for $225 I would have ripped my pocket getting my wallet out.

Anything at $500 or under was a steal.

Fewer and fewer kids are being exposed to traditional guns/hunting/shooting sports, and those who have no "old guy mentors", and who persevere in their desire to arm themselves, automatically turn to "tacticool" weapons. As that trend continues, and we silverbacks die off, the market will be glutted with cheap classic guns that today sell for a premium.

A couple hundred for a nifty M12? Heck yes, and I'm not even into pumps!

Well said and totally on the mark..

I'd sure would like a slow-mo video of that!


DMc

SHOTGUNNING MASTERY:

The last one is kind of interesting.


Rudy Etchen's Records

Member of 14 All-American Trap and Skeet teams.

Winner North American Clay Target Championship.

Winner Open Championship of North America.

Winner North American Doubles Championship - 5 times.

Winner High Average on 16-Yard Targets in North America twice.

1952 with 99.20% average, a record at the time.

1953 with 99.12% average.

Winner High Over All Championship of North America - 5 times. 1950 score of 980x1000 was a record at the time.

Winner High All Around Championship of North America - 5 times.

Winner of more than 100 state and regional trap championships.

Youngest State Trap Champion - Kansas - 14 years of age. Repeated as State Champion the following year.

Winner High Average on Doubles in North America - 3 times.

First 100 Straight on Doubles ever shot at the Grand American.

Winner of 20 state and regional skeet championships.

Winner National Sub Small Bore (.410) Skeet Championship.

International Skeet - 2nd place in Championship of the World.

International Trap - 3rd place in Championship of the World.

International Trap - winner gold medal at Olympic tryouts in 1972. Broke the first 100 straight ever shot on the Rochester, MN, field enroute to a 196x100.

Winner World Live Pigeon Championship High Over All, Mexico City, 1966. Second place in the individual event among some 478 entrants.

Match of Nations, Cairo, Egypt - Member of winning live-bird team competing with 25 other countries.

Winner World Live Bird Grand Prix, Monte Carlo, 1955.

Winner Live Bird Championship of Madrid, 1965.

Winner Live Bird Championship of Paris, 1955.

Winner Open Flyer Championship of Guadalajara, 1974.

Winner Columbaire Championship of Seville, Spain, 1965.

Winner Columbaire Championship of Madrid, 1966.

Winner Columbaire Championship of Egypt Open, 1955.

Grand National Quail Championship, Enid, Oklahoma - high score three years in a row.

Long Run Skeet Record - 104 targets straight. If that doesn't impress you, consider that Rudy Etchen shot it while standing on one foot . . . atop the post at each skeet station . . . using only one hand . . . with a Model 12 pump shotgun.


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Around here Model 12s with a full choke seem to bring the most money.

Dave, when I spent a lot of time in W. Va. 30" model 12's were the standard.. Some guys liked model 31's.. But model 12's were the standard.. The guys I never mostly used them for squirrel hunting and turkey hunting..

Sad but true, the mdl 12 prices started dropping in 2006 with the prices remaining flat for field guns. The 28 gauge guns and Mdl 42's still bring collector prices for "Clean" unmolested guns. The generation that admired the old guns are dying off, retired from shooting with the new generation wanting a more modern (Designer) looking shotgun or just a 870 Express.

The Winchester Super X model 1 prices are depressed as well considering less than 92,000 were produced.

Doc

Model 1897s aren't bringing what they did a few years ago either unless it's a bona-fide trenchgun or a Black Diamond but model 21s are strong and the few decent 1901s that I've seen are just crazy...wait 20 years or so and what is in demand today will be ho-hum then.

The antique oak furniture market(at least in my area)is very depressed...the yuppies will pass on a really nice claw-foot round oak table with matching chairs to buy one of those chrome and vinyl dinette sets from the 50s for two or three times more money...I don't understand it.

Count me as one of the ones who dont find them all that useful...or valuable. While I do grasp the fact that they are fine shotguns, when there are newer guns out there that are infinitely more versatile...why?

I snagged a clean Franchi AL48 in 20 a while back...love the gun, but its a fixed choke gun. Had it not had a Mod and Fixed barrel included, I most likeley would not have carried it home. Even at that, I am considering having the fixed barrel cut for choke tubes.

Your thoughts on what versatility you would gain with all those chokes-and which ones would you get-over a fixed IC or Mod?

Snag that model 12 up. The only shotgun I own with screw in chokes is an SX3 for shooting fasteel.

The only choke I have used in it is mod. Just like all the fixed choke guns in the safe.

I could use an IC choked model 12 though....

Problem with choke tubes is people think in terms of fixed consistent distances. Ic is perfect for so many yards, mod for this yardage and etc.

But with the exceptions of skeet and trap, game Birds don't always follow the rule. One gets up at your feet and the next at 30 yards out. On the same Bird, same day, you may have the perfect choke screwed in this time and the next you don't. You miss with the first barrel when it is perfect and the bird now may be closer or further. Best to play the odds and go with something that covers all the bases. Fixed ic covers a lot of them within the range that most of us can consistently hit. Myself I like mod.

Improved cylinder can cover most if not all ranges for wild bird shooting, pheasants primarily. Shoot a round of trap with an "IC" choke from the 16 yard line and most shooters will be surprised at their scores and importantly the crushing of the clay birds.

Before choke tubes became the standard in the mid 80's very few fixed choke shotguns or barrels were sold in improved cylinder and not sure why. Tighter patterns are not always better.

My Parker Brothers SxS was built in 1901 and choked IC and light mod, the original purchaser know what chokes he needed in a bird gun 114 years ago.

Doc

Cylinder for close in, buckshot, and slugs...Full, extra full, and turkey for , well, turkeys and such...

I leave the IC in my guns 90% of the time, but I enjoy the ability to change.

I think that it's great that the prices have come down - it keeps them from being "investments" and puts them in the hands of people who appreciate shooting them.

I love guys with that mind set! I get all kinds of good deals on fixed choke guns from guys that just GOTTA have screw ins. :-)

Nothing smokes targets, dumps birds or patterns better than a old fixed choke Winchester or Remington barrel

Shot a pump-gun event with an old Remington TC with fixed mod. It was ripping 30-40 yard targets and ink balling anything much closer. Bud who was walking around with me commented on how hard it was hitting targets.

Remington Nitros 1 1/8 7.5's which are another winner.

battue, have you every noticed that a mod. choke at the 16 yd. line seems to demolish birds more often than a full??It seemed to me when I had a mod. choke I just crushed more birds than whne I had a full.. Maybe I am just a poor shot..

Hazen,

Shot trap kinda seriously, more moons ago than I ever thought would rise. Started out with the Remington 870 TC mentioned with a different barrel and I can't remember the choke, but probably full. Then I had a Perazzi single barrel that was full. When you were on that thing would turn targets into ink spots at the 16.

Have only shot trap relatively few times in the following years and usually with my Sporting Clay shotgun and Mod. From memory I would have to say the old fulls hit them harder.

That being said, if I was going to shoot trap today for a little serious fun, I would probably prefer a Mod from the 16.

Yep....I had a "lefty" 870 20 gauge tubed by Mike Oren early spring and have regretted it since. I should have just bought an extra barrel
and had it re-choked to skeet and the factory modified barrel taken down to "Skeet II". This two barrel combination would have covered all
the bases I would use this gun for.

Seasoned skeet shooters always give me a smirk looking at my 870 pump
on a skeet range....until they see a pump is no slower than a O/V or auto. On doubles I extract the last shot fired and catch the empty in the air with my trigger hand ( pushing the stock butt against my shoulder for support) The K-80 shooters stopped smirking after that stunt.

Doc

There is a nice piece of wood on that old 870 TC and I had it refinished once. Checkering is gone again and I've filed on it for fit. Had to throw some oil on it to bring it out, but It has been around more than a few fields; Pheasants, Grouse-when I had nothing else-Turkey, Trap and Sporting Clay pump gun events when I get the urge.

Back when an 870 was and 870.

Nice gun .. My old TC is one with screw in chokes.. I had to trade barrels before I got one that suited me.. But it has a beautiful piece of wood in it.. If I remember, I will take a photo when we get home and post it..

Haven't shot much trap since 95 when I took my first trip to Africa.. Then a few years later, I retired, and never got back into the ATA.. Just fool around at the local club to keep my hand in for bird shooting.

But the years I did shoot trap made me a better field shot.
I realized what could be done with a shotgun, and it made me a more confident shotgunner.. Now there is just too much to do, to go to a shoot stand around all day to maybe shoot an hour.. But it was great for my all around shotgun shooting..

"Model 12s, unless in 28ga, don't bring what they are truly worth."

I've always thought Model 12s were priced above what they are truly worth. Good guns, mind you, but not all that much better than many pump guns of the same era. Not as much better as some people seem to think, anyway.

I obtained a 1920 Model 12 and used it on ducks and pheasant last fall. It seems to have a lot of training or built-in game hitting ability as it was extremely effective on the birds with its full choke, 32" barrel, and using 1 1/4 oz. #4 shot. Almost no original finish remains, and I found out why I got it so reasonably when it started to fail to feed and locked up ("Grandfather's old shotgun doesn't work right, let's sell it off"). A replacement of the cartridge lifter spring and of a broken firing pin have easily made it right as rain. I marvel at its smoothness of action now along with its balance and how sweetly it points- just a fine old shotgun. I think that it is ready for another 95 years of hunting as long as I don't shoot steel shot in it.

Why not buy it and send the barrel to Briley? They will bore it out for flush mounted choke tubes. I sold a 20 gauge Model 12 to a friend, in part because it was a fixed full choke, and he did just that. Turnaround time was a week.

I too like the old fixed choke pump guns...friend has a 16 gauge plain barrel 26" IC Wingmaster, and I'd like one someday too. But...when I was a kid, everyone used full choke pump 12s, and I remember being admonished to wait out the close flushing sharptails. But I went hunting in my 20s with a friend who had an old M97 that had had the barrel cut back to 24" with no choke...and he didn't wait for them, he shot them close, didn't shoot them up, and impressed the hell out of me. I bought a barrel for my 12 gauge fixed choke Wingmaster that had Remchokes, and bought a skeet choke for the first weekend. When the birds flush at your feet, it was perfect. After a couple weeks when the birds got smarter, I switched to modified. I like that versatility, especially with sharptails that act WAY differently in late season than they do on Sept 1st. Still shoot a screw in barrel Wingmaster, but now it's a 20!

I picked up a Model 12 12 ga, 20" cylinder to which a Cutts had been added a while back. IIRC, it was an early 50s gun wearing the US ordinance markings. Likely a Bureau of Prisons gun as it was carried a good bit and according to the innards, shot little.

Why buy such these days? I learned on a pump and it was $140 in a pawn shop. At that price, I can use it as a dedicated truck or Kawasaki Mule gun and it will last forever. Or for a piece of money, Briley could do wonders with the barrel. But why, I have other guns to hunt with or to impress folks.

I do use two other pumps from time to time. A thirty something 870 with a later extra light screw choke system and my delightful 42, a modified choke gun I picked up a few years ago still in amazing condition. If the terrain and conditions are right, it is a fun dove gun.

Jack

I can't think of an overall more "useful" shotgun than a fixed choke IC or Modified 2 3/4". Gauge, 12, 16 or 20 doesn't really matter to me.

Model 12s are great and as far as versatility goes, between ic and mod I usually have a light mod in my barrel 90% of the time and 2 3/4 in my chamber 90% of the time, except during duck season when that slides down to about 50% of the time. So if I could find a model 12 with a 26" barrel choked Lt mod I would say that would be a very versitile gun, and I would like to own one. Till then I guess I will be forced to shoot this old M1. Grin