Home Forums Birds & Dogs Upland Game Anyone use a 20ga. for Phesant?

I'm primarilly a grouse hunter, but ocassionally travel for phesant. I'm looking for a o/u 20 which will be used mostly for grouse, but the light weight will be great for all day phesants too. Is the 20 with 3" 4's of 5's enough for the tougher bigger birds?

tzone

I used a 20 ga. for many years and found it worked OK. Early season birds generally hold tighter and I prefer 6 shot. Late season I switched to premium copper plated 3 inch magnums with 4 shot for wild birds. Using 5 shot for the entire season would be a good idea.

No doubt a 12 ga. is a better choice and it's what I now always carry when hunting wild pheasant. My ole 20 has been relegated to quail or chukar. I carry a 20 O/U with 6's when shooting the wildlife management area where they release stocked birds.

Make sure you buy hard shot - avoid the bargin shells with their softer shot. If you can afford copper plated pellets you'll get better penetration.

I always used to. Now that we have no phesants I use nothing. That works well also.

I'll echo what Boise said and take it just a half step further. I think a 20 is dandy but copper plated shot loaded in premium shells is a must. Nothing worse than winging a bird that turns into a runner.

Both my girls have used the 20 ga with success, with #4's. I do think though that the 12ga is more effective.

More than enough; #5's have worked best for me. Well over 1000 wild roosters out of Illinois ditches agree.


Fiocchi 1-1/4 oz. Golden Pheasant #5's pattern well, as do Federal 1-5/16 oz. loads.

Thanks guys, I guess I already knew the answer but it was nice to hear it from someone else. If I used the 20 on phesants I would definetly use the best load I could afford (copper plated)


Maybe I will buy the 20 and look for a good deal on a used 12 pump for the 1 time a year I would use it on phesants. The 12ga I have now is strictly for turkeys and way too heavy to carry all day.

tzone

1 5/16th out of a lightweight 20ga?

OUCH!

1 oz of 5's does it for my girl on sage grouse and pheasant inside 30 yards or so. Outside of 30 yards, use a 12 ga. JMO, Dutch.

I've killed geese with a 20, why wouldn't it work on pheasant?

No one is arguing that a twenty won't work on pheasant and as you mention geese. The 20 ga. does fall short of 12 ga performance even when loaded with an equal amount of shot - the shot string is very different. This is covered exceptionally well in the text, The art and science of shotgunning by Bob Brister.

FWIW ... my dad has used 1 oz of 5's or 6's out of a 2 3/4" Franchi 48 and a mod choke for years ... man alive can that geezer stack the ditch parrots.

A good 20 is all one needs for pheasant. I shoot a 24" 12ga Montefeltro myself, but that is what I use for all my wingshooting. Wouldn't mind getting one of the same in 20 ga for upland but why change a good thing ...

Tzone,

This is the ".30-30 vs. Elk" discussion in a different wrapper. A .30-30 will work just fine within its limitations, but most guys choose something less limiting. Defining what those limits are is largely based on the skill of shooter, but the ballistics play are part.

Personally, I figure a 20-gauge takes about 10-yards off my range. That might not seem like much, but that can put a lot of nervous birds out of range.

+1, amen

If you want ONE upland gun, which is a good idea IMO, you might like a 6.5 lb. 12 ga. Mine is an old LC Smith Featherweight, but several new ones are made. Beretta and Browning make light O/Us, and the Franchi AL-48 12 weighs 6.5 lbs also.

I have a short-barreled 6 lb 20 ga O/U, and it is chambered for 3" shells, but I just use it for quick shooting like woods quail and woodcock. I prefer a longer, heavier gun for long shots, and a more powerful gun for bigger birds. When you have to launch a second shot at a wounded bird, some reach in the second barrel is appreciated.

I had one shotgun in my youth and, as I grew up in a quail hunter's paradise and was a traditionalist, it was a 16 ga. I used it with some success on pheasant when I moved to Nebraska, but I also had some experiences that made me see the wisdom of having a 12 ga in the locker.

That's just my opinion. I'm not an expert.

I haven't used a 20ga much on anything. But I do use 1 1/16th oz loads out of a 16ga and never use more than 1 1/8th oz 12 ga loads. I like 5's best but have used a lot of 6's. Also tried 7 1/2's but to many cripples with them. And I do hunt over pointing dogs, probally helps not to have wild flushers. I wouldn't hesitate to use 1 1/8th os of 5's in a 20ga if a 20 was all I had. An 1 1/8th oz of 5's is an 1 1/8oz no matter what ga. you shoot it out of.

Out of gas guns (A303, B-80, Browning Gold) and a few A-5 20 mags. I've never so much as felt the gun when a rooster hollers, and none have recoil pads.

Ruger red label. 3in shells equal 2 3/4 in a 12 gauge. I got in the habit of using the 20 when I had a really pretty 12 gauge that I never took out in inclement weather and I would haul the old 20 ga mossberg instead. Seemed to work pretty well so I ditched the pretty 12 and got the pretty 20. 16 would be a good compromise...

"3in shells equal 2 3/4 in a 12 gauge."

Not so much. Generally a 20-gauge has to give up something - a lighter charge of shot for a 12's velocity or the same charge of shot at lower velocity. In any case, the best 20-gauge load will be a mediocre 12-gauge load - and the 12-gauge can always move up.

This is from the Federal website comparing the two. Premium wing shock Magnum Ammo. I will concede the shot weight...

P258load 20ga 3 in 1300fps 1 1/4shot weight 4 ,5 ,6 shot size


P156load 12ga 2 3/4in 1315fps 1 1/2shot weight 4 ,6 ,BB shot size

Also he was asking if anyone shoots 20 ga and I do. I have not had any problems with it and I do not shoot when they are flushing out past 30 yards or so. In mixed bag hunts I may shoot pheasant load over quail so I have something to launch should the quail get up.

What it gives up, and the reason I use them more and more the older I get, is weight and bulk and sluggishness. A comparative joy to carry all day in the field, payload is payload. There is no significant range or lethality difference between 1-1/4 oz. of #5's out of a 20 ga. or a 1-1/4 oz. out of a 12 ga.

For years, I carried an A-5 "Light Twelve." There is nothing light about it at all, particularly after walking ditches all day. When I'm tired (read exhausted) a A303 or even the new Gold Superlight flies to my shoulder by comparison.

When I was a young boy, my Dad would have two roosters on the way down before I even got my gun to my shoulder. The tables turned, eventually.

My Dad (78 years old and a very active hunter today) finally made the switch from his 12 ga. standardweight A-5 to a 26" barreled Gold 20 ga. when they came out.

It instantly shaved 20 years off his speed, and he's been hunting with that gun ever since.

To me, there IS a difference between 1-1/4 oz. loads in the two gauges. Sticking with the Federal brand, the 12-gauge is 200-fps faster (1500-fps) in the non-mediocre loads <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

The pattern board has convinced me otherwise. I've never had a 1400 fps (or faster) lead load that had patterns that were worth looking at.

Faster is not better for patterns, regardless of gauge. Slower shells have patterned better for me, without exception.

I can't figure where you're going with this, Randy. Are you saying there's no difference in killing power between a 12 and a 20-gauge?

For pheasant with quality 1-1/4 oz. loads matched to a quality choke tube-- there is no tangible difference in lethality. Patterns kill birds, nothing else.

Now, in actuality, a 20 ga. gas gun is clearly superior for me, at my age, under my field conditions, as a pheasant gun than most 12 gauges. If it wasn't, I would not use them, except for the rare exception.

The "gauge" is not superior, the combination of balance, speed, weight, etc., quite easily is-- for me.

Technically, a 16 ga. is as superior to a 20 ga. as it is inferior to a 12 ga., and a 12 ga. is inferior to a 10 ga. as long as the payload is a "squared load." Pattern efficiency suffers beyond that. That is technically, though, not tangibly.

Randy, I also shoot both light weight 20's and an A5 "Lightweight" - small world.

The shot string on a 20 ga. is much longer. Patterning a shotgun will only show the diameter and not the length. Bob Brister's book "The Art and Science of Shotgunning" describes the dynamics of this event and provide irreputable data on the effects (they shoot thousands of ducks in the study.) There is clearly a difference in the pattern of a 20 ga 1 1/4 oz and a 12 ga 1 1/4 oz. Not much of an issue if the bird is head on or flying straight away but any angle adds to the 12 ga performance.

I continue to shoot both gauges for game. Selecting the right shotgun is always a tough decision - I own six. For nice weather upland game the 20 ga. Browning Superpose Lightning is first pick, bad weather brings out the 20 ga. S&W 1000. Pheasant see the 12 ga Browning Broadway Lightning on nice days (Briley chokes) and a 16 ga. 1100 if it's nasty. The old 16 ga. 870, my very first shotgun hasn't been out in years and the A5 Lightweight isn't very popular with me.

Bottom line, with the 20 ga work? Sure, but it will work better with premium shells. Would I use a 20 ga for pheasant? Sure, if it was the gun I was carrying but I would always grab a 12 ga if I was going pheasant hunting. I believe this is what the original poster was asking.

What About Shot String?

Brister was not always 100% right-- but, at least he got to shoot at his wife more than most. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

[Quote] by Randy Wakeman
For pheasant with quality 1-1/4 oz. loads matched to a quality choke tube-- there is no tangible difference in lethality. Patterns kill birds, nothing else. [Quote]

+1

[quote]Patterns kill birds, nothing else. [Quote]

Really? Not to be argumentative I always thought shot killed birds. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Either way, more shot, bigger pattern, better odds. I don't understand the debate. Seems like common sense to me.

Of course you are attempting to be argumentative-- that's the only really obvious part. Of the many, many bags of shot here-- no bag of shot has killed wounded, or even frightened anything. Yet.

More shot fired out of a shotshell does not automatically mean a better pattern at all, or even a good pattern.

Quality shot, quality wadding, and a quality choke matched to that shot charge, matched to the game we are shooting at, and matched to the range we are taking game at is what I'm referring to as a "pattern."

Burrard, Oberfell & Thompson, Brister, Brindle, Zutz and Lowry were not talking about the patently obvious.

I use a 20 as my late season big gun and then only because the left barrel is tighter than that of my 28. Use 7/8 loads in the 20 and 3/4 loads in the 28. Same shot in both, NI #5's. Hunt with a Drahthaar. At pointing range, a .410 with 2 1/2" loads often does the job well. The 28 kills them more reliably.

[Quote] by Stetson
Either way, more shot, bigger pattern, better odds. I don't understand the debate. Seems like common sense to me. [Quote]

More shot and bad patterns = bad performance Seems like common sense to me........... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

"More shot fired out of a shotshell does not automatically mean a better pattern at all, or even a good pattern. "

It also doesn't mean a poor pattern does it?
It sounds like your suggesting every 12 gauge patterns poorly and all 20's pattern perfectly or at the very least better than 12's. If you have a 20 that patterns poorly and less shot up against a 12 that patterns poorly with more shot which gives you better odds? IMO you left out a few variables in your definition of "pattern" such as firearm quality and the experience level of the shooter. I find it easier to hit birds with more shot/powder. The less of it the greater the handicap or the greater the challenge. Just my two cents adjusted for inflation.

Like where? I'm am not implying that, suggesting it, stating it, or hinting at that. Experience of the shooter and pattern quality are not related; firearm quality (whatever is meant by that, precisely) only tenuously.

A pattern percentage at a specific range is just that. Good patterns are where you find them.

Good patterns are where you find them? Sorry thats a bit deep for me. To answer your question HERE;

"Technically, a 16 ga. is as superior to a 20 ga. as it is inferior to a 12 ga., and a 12 ga. is inferior to a 10 ga. as long as the payload is a "squared load." Pattern efficiency suffers beyond that. That is technically, though, not tangibly. "

I think the rest of the world thinks of a "pattern" as how a particular gun groups shot with a particular choke and a specific load at a given range. I never said experience of the shooter and patterns were related. It may be a variable based on that rather odd description of a pattern you made in a previous post. That would be the same post that you indicated quality was an issue.

So if I understand your post your implying that quality chokes and shell comonents are key but gun quality is tenuous at best? You don't think quality tubes, the amout of back bore or the legth of the forcing cone will impact patterns? Just trying to get a grasp on what point your trying to make.

tzone,

Like yourself I am primarily a grouse hunter. I only hunt phesants here in CT with my buddy who has a superbly trained GSP. I used my Bernadelli Game Cock last year in 20 ga choked IC and F.

This is the shotgun for me.

So to clarify this argument, have any of the nay sayers hunted pheasant with a 20 ga? If so how much, if not then what basis of comparison can you personally make?

For example "I find it easier to hit birds with more shot/powder. "

i shoot a franchi Al48 20 ga with 3" #5's for pehsant and #6 for grouse and chuckar and it does superb IMHO

It may help to read the whole strand. Here's my initial post.



I use copper plated shells in my 12 as well for pheasants. As far as the "argument" goes I'm not even sure what the heck Randy is talking about. Most of us can answer the OP's question with one word....YES!
I do find it easier to hit birds with more shot and powder. Where is the confusion? A 12 gives me a little more distance and a slightly larger pattern. Bigger pattern, more distance = more compensation for poor/longer shots. The last time I looked loads with less shot and powder were referred to as "Handicap" loads. I'm thinking there's a reason for that.
IMO a 20 is fantastic for grouse and slightly limiting for pheasant. Some will want to argue a 20 IS lighter and faster but since both calibers are built on the same frame (generally) I think you would have to compare apples to apples.
Trying to determine which gauge is better than the other is pointless. The true answer will likely be different for each and every one of us.

There is the original question. I do not think anyone is arguing that the 12 ga. is not a capable and effective pheasant killer.

In the most recent "American Hunter" mag there is an article (by Dave Henderson) on shotgun chokes and patterns and an interesting statement which applies to this discussion "A common misconception among shotgunners is that a larger gauge throws a larger pattern. After all, it's easier to score in skeet or trap with a 12-gauge than with a 20, isn't it? Yes, it's easier to break birds with the larger gauge, but not because of the size of the pattern. The rate of shot spread is controlled by the choke and other factors, not by the bore diameter. Theoretically, the pattern is about the same size whether it's a 12-gauge, 16, 20 or 28. In actual use, you'll probably score higher-and find the pattern marginally wider-with the big bore because there are more pellets in the shot string and more will be deformed and/or pressured outward, swelling the pattern diameter a bit, not because of a difference in the size of the pattern."

To answer the original post, yes, in my experience the 20ga. will work well for the hunting you describe.

Either the pattern is larger with a larger gauge or it's not. IMO the notion that the pattern is larger in a bigger bore due to shot deformation is utter bull puckey. That argument would have to be based on a very specefic bore diameter and shot charge to have any relevance and can not be applied IMO with such a broad stroke. If this were the case perhaps we should ask ourselves why competition shooters lengthen forcing cones and back bore the tubes. This decreases the effects of deformed shot and makes a tighter shot strand although the pattern will still be larger in most cases than a smaller gauge due to shot capacity. In the field copper plated shot helps reduce the effects of deformation. I think the relevant point on the whole is that the pattern will most likely be more dense and have a larger pattern with a larger bore due to shot capacity.
I did manage two grouse this weekend with the 20 and several flushes. Every weekend so far this season has been plagued with rain. I doubt they had much time to think about what hit em. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

A .410 throws a larger pattern than a 12 ga., that is well-documented.

That is a bit of a trick statement, as a larger effective pattern size is what counts, as in pattern efficiency-- which is where larger gauges have the advantage in a generic sense.

One of the best patterning gauges is the 28 ga. with 3/4 oz. of shot, patterning as well (or better) than larger gauges. But, while a high pattern percentage of 3/4 oz. of shot may be interesting it does not compare with 1-1/4 oz. loads.

I have a real soft spot for the 28 bore. Now there is a light, fast, small frame grouse gun. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I use a 20 gauge Browning Superposed choked Skeet and Skeet for hunting with pointers. 1-1/8 oz. of 7-1/2 shot in the first barrel, 1-1/4 oz. of #6 in the second. Got all 9 I hit this weekend.

I wish they made 1-1/4 oz. loads in 7-1/2 shot.

Indy, I use a 28-ga Citori, bored SK/SK for quail, and it kills as many birds as my 12 gauges do.

I shot my limit every day hunting last year with a 28 ga. SXS with an ounce of 5's. This was in SD after Thanksgiving last year, so certainly not early season birds. I have killed the majority of the pheasants in my life with a 20 ga. and no. 6 shot, although I have come to believe that 5's are the perfect pheasant shot, no matter whether 12 ga. or 20 or 28.

My opinion: if you shoot 20ga shells loaded with 12ga shot charges and 28ga shells loaded with 20ga shot charges you're throwing away all the advantages of using a smaller bore, plus getting the crap kicked outa ya' as punishment.

Gas guns take the recoil out of the equation;

The reason I carry 20's is light weight and fast-handling. The recoil is "unfelt recoil" when a rooster flushes, and this is not trap-shooting.

I shot a 12 ga. for years beginning in my teen years. The main reason I shot a 12 was I shot competitive trap, and I could switch barrels on my 870 trap gun and hunt birds. I used my standard 1 1/8 oz. trap loads for dove and quail and even loaded 1 1/8 oz. high-antimony #4's for duck with great success (This was in the late 70's and 80's).
I eventually started hunting quail over dogs. I found that with the 1 1/8 oz. load, I was really wrecking alot of birds, so I began loading 1 oz. and even some 7/8 oz. shells. One day it occured to me that I was carrying and 8-8 1/2 lb. 12 ga. and shooting the equivalent of 20 ga. shells. So, I began using a 20 ga. exclusively except for spring turkeys. I have a very soft spot for side-by-sides and have been using an AyA Matador for a couple of years now. I've found that if I use high antimony shot in my handloads, that my 20 will do everything I want.
FWIW, I went on my first pheasant hunt last week in Iowa. I carried my AyA 20 ga. Since I'm in the process of moving, all my loading equipment is packed away and I had to buy factory loads. I wanted copper-plated 5's, but could only find standard 1 oz. #5's. I killed 3 birds with four shots. Two of them had to be caught by the dog, but I believe that had I been using hard #5's, I'd have had no trouble at all.
35W

Being from Iowa I cut my hunting teeth on pheasants and have used everything but a 28 ga. which I wish to correct someday soon. I would use that in some of the preserve hunting I do.

But to the point, I've killed hundreds with the 20, starting with an old Stevens 311 as a teenager and just yesterday took three big roosters with an L.C. Smith 20 sxs and a Benelli Montefeltro 20. I've used most loads out there and wouldn't criticize anyone elses's choice but I've found a premium load of ! oz of copper coated 6s at 1300 fps work very well for early season birds; obviously the 11/8th short mag loads would work well too as long as they pattern well in your gun.

Later in the season I usually switch to one of my 12 ga sxs.

A 20 ga. might not be ideal in every situation you find yourself in while hunting pheasants but if you don't push the range, use premium shot shells, you will do just fine and of course depending on your choice of guns, you can hunt with a much lighter shotgun than you would with a 12.

You know, thinking back, as a kid I killed a truckload of ducks with my 20's. Even the big ones were no problem with my typical 1 oz. #4. Of course there was no one around to tell me that I wasn't using enough gun either!!
To me, it's like the deer rifle argument. I say you're far better off using something you can reliably hit with, than using something more powerful just because it's more powerful.
2�

It took all day yesterday, but this morning we were limited out by 8 AM.

I dropped this rooster right at 55 yards with a B-80 20 ga., Fiocchi GP #5's, and the help of a Trulock PH extended choke. They don't get much deader better.

Yea, the BB of the same size and speed flys just as far and hits just as far regardless of gauge; it's just the smaller the gauge, the fewer of them in the pattern. Therefore, that rooster was pretty unlucky.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />!

As were another 20 of them. 1-1/4 oz. of NP shot and a good choke tube is all.

Good shooting!

With a lot of standing corn still left in this area, it was a lot more walking than normal for opening day.

Ever read the myth of wide-open chokes for early season pheasants, and tighter chokes for 'late season'?

Illinois pheasants forgot to read that part. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Congrats. Looks like you had a great hunt.

Same story here. 'Though most farmers here are of Dutch extract and therefore obsessive-compulsive, there still is a fair amount of corn in. That, combined with warm, very mild weather keeps the birds spread out and "catch-as-catch-can".

However, my first trip out I managed to chill five big roosters in a couple of hours. I also had two or three more shot opportunities that I passed as a little too far with a 20 ga.

got back opening weekend in ks. dad used a stoeger o/u in 20 gauge with nitro pheasant loads from remington. he hit some that were easily out past 40 yds! he was choked mod/full. I pretty much used my pet cz ringneck 12 gauge, but switched to a rem 1100 sporting 20 the last day. used the nitro pheasants also. never had a problem or felt I was undergunned. I was using a light modified choke. I got a couple that were out there also in the 30+ range. I think that the real question is in your ammo selection more than gauge. the nitro pheasants are loaded with copper platted pellets. we used #5's. I know a few guys used fiochi golden pheasants loads with the same results.

I'm leaving mine in the case for the first day since I just bought a Browning O/U but I really enjoyed carrying the lighter 20 last season; although I was out shot by my counterparts carrying 12s until I unpacked my 870. I'm hoping to come back next weekend with some nice pics of a successful hunt!

This is kind of a weird statement. 1� oz. of copperplated #5s is the same number/same size pellets whether it's out of a 2�" 12 ga. or a 3" 20 ga. On the 2-dimensional pattern board the spreads are esentially the same. The difference in performance arises because the shot cone is a 3-dimensional entity. The only part of the pattern that matters is the part that arrive on target. For certain types of shots, the performance would be effectively equal.

As much as I like the 20 (and there are times when it really shines), I consider the 12 to be an across-the-board better killer of game.

Swat, what did you get for a Browning O/U? I got a hold of a 12 ga. 26" Citori quite a few years ago, and really like it. Fixed chokes, but that has never bothered me.

I am going out to mess around in the tidal marsh today but will take a 20 gauge Red Label that needs some exercise.

If you're any good with a shotgun,a 20 guage is plenty for pheasants. Use high brass loads with 6's over dogs,or 4's without dogs. The only difference I've seen between the 12 and 20 on pheasants,is the 12 puts more shot into the bird and tears them up worse.

The shot column in a 12 is usually delivered better then in a 20guage,due to the dimensions of a 12 guage. Competition shooters and olympic shooters have experimented alot between the two guages. Even with exact amounts of shot between the two guages. The 12 will out perform the 20 on clays. On birds the size of pheasants,theres not much differance.

I've seen the .410 used out to 40 yards on pheasants with no troubles. Its the guy behind the trigger.

Just for clarification you are quoting Supercrewd.

Randy,
A little off topic- but I just acquired a Browning Gold Fusion, 12 ga. Haven't weighed it, but it's advertised weight is 6 lb. 15 oz., nearly a pound lighter than my Gold Sporting Clays. It's my third Gold, and the lightest of the three. I debated about getting the Superlite 20, but this gun with heavy 12 ga. 3" loads will also be useful for ducks and geese, as well as upland game and sporting clays with lighter loads.
I've read your reviews of the Golds, and have the same complaint as you- the triggers. I think I'll send them all off at the same time and get them set to something reasonable, once the bird seasons are over.

The triggers are heavy with some creep, and the Superlight 12 I've been shooting recently is no exception:

http://randywakeman.com/BrowningGoldSuperlight12GaugeFLD.htm

The 20 is so effective on pheasants that I've just acquired an AyA 28 ga., IC & M with 29" barrels; I'm a SxS fan. But my point is I've killed so many pheasants with 1 oz of 6s, that I can't imagine 7/8 or even 3/4 oz is going to be dramatically less effective especially over a close-holding pointer and using some descretion on shots over 30-35 yds.

I haven't wrung it out yet but I'm looking forard to.

Randy-that is a good looking old hound, bet he's got some war stories on roosty birds to tell...grins

Mark D

Well, Rocky is eleven-- but still acts like a pup. Really, he looks the same as he always has; "liver and white" might look gray, but he claims he is 'timeless and ageless.'

The old notion of "late season pheasants" sure doesn't always hold true-- this year is a perfect example. It was very, very warm early on . . . no reason for pheasants to use cover at all, much less hold.

Same way right now-- N. IL, wet, soupy, muddy, high about 50. The pheasants are not using cover, so there is very little predictability. I've taken more pheasants past 40 yards this year than inside 40.

They're running as soon as they can see or hear you. The pheasant ear canals are huge-- most people haven't looked, but that their hearing is superb is no accident. They do well here, and are as smart as they come . . . smarter than a coyote, to be sure.

Rocky looks like my kind of dog, I lost my 15 year old lab Jake this last summer so I am hunt dog poor this fall.

Tough way to spend a fall.

Thanks for sharing

Mark D

That's what every dog owner goes through hates to think about Mark. I hate to think of the day my 6-yr old GWP gets there. Are you thinking another lab next?
By the way took my AyA 28 SxS out last week; the only load I could get locally and quickly was Fed's 3/4 oz of 6s at 1295 fps.
I went to a preserve where I'm a member (mainly because I could shoot as many birds as I wanted to and to wring this gun out). I took seven roosters - pointed birds in thick stuff so they held - the longest I would say at 35 yds. I honestly could not tell this load differed from the 20 ga. loads of 1 oz I usually shoot on this particular trip. And the little AyA swings like a wand!

Best in the New Year to all.

Never seen a pheasant yet that could out fly shotstring.

If the speed and pattern is there, there isn't any difference.

Never saw a pheasant that learned the difference for "out of range" of 20 gauge versus 12gauge. Probably if out range for 20 flushing shot, most likely out of range for 12.

However if pheasant is sitting on ground or fence post, 12 might reach farther. Would probably require larger shotload though.

As for running off, that is part what a hunting dog is for.

Biggest difference between lighter weight 20 vs. heavier 12: 3 to 6 lbs. of muck on each boot, LOL!

Some very good and some questinable answers to the question.
And yes a 20 Can be effective on pheasants, but over the LONG run you will put more birds in the bag with a 12 than with a 20, providing the 12 is not so ponderous that it hinders your shooting. On the other hand a light 20 with heavy loads can recoil so much more than a normal weight 12 that it will have its own set of disadvantages.
Look at your averages in skeet. The 12 always has a higher percentage in the end. This is on a constant target at a constant range. Also do international trap shooters who are limited to 7/8 ounce of shot use a 12 or 20? Answer: 12. Why? It's just more efficient. If you want to use a 20, there is nothing wrong with your choice. As someone previously mentioned, the only thing you have to remember is that your range for consistant kills will be shorter.
And by the way, Bob Brister forgot more than all of us together will ever know about the dynamics of a shotshell. And it would take one hell of a shot to beat him in the application also. I say him shoot when he was well into his 70's, he was still and excellent shot. I can't imagine how good he was in his prime. Some of the best shotgunners we have today have nothing but the highest regard for his ability and knowledge. He had another book in the works before he died. It still might be published.

Battue

I pity the guy that would tell my son (24) that a 20 gauge isn't good enough for pheasants. He won a 20ga. 870 Express at a Quails Unlimited banquet when he was either 11 or 12. This is the only shotgun he has ever had and he knows how to shoot it. I refuse to hunt next to him, do to never getting to shoot, course after a pass through a field with pheasants everyone understands what I mean. He does this with the original modified choke and shells bought wherever they are the cheapest.

Now back in my younger days, I got a Model 57 Sportsman choked full for my 13th birthday. I used only that gun for about 15 years. I then went to a 1100 12 ga. and then to a Red Label 12 ga. Shot birds with both. A couple years ago I won a Remington Spartan 20 ga at a Pheasants Forever banquet & have shot only it for the past 2 winters.

Its all a matter of shooting your shotgun enough to know what it will do and is capable of.

Ridiculous.

There is no tangible difference in range or lethality between a 20 ga. shooting 1-1/4 oz. of #5 shot @ 1200 fps that prints 65% patterns @ 40 yards and a 12 ga. that does the same. None, nada, zip.

Ridiculus you say. Don't ask someone to validate their opinion, just start off in the argumentative mode. You say there is not a tangible difference. I already gave you two, but here is a third. Have you ever heard of live pigeon shooting? As practiced in Europe, probably the toughest shotgun shooting competition that exists. Now you Randy would walk out with your trusty 20 and take on the worlds best. But guess what, you would lose. Why? Because for long range shotgunning, given equal ability of the competitor, the 12 has a "tangible" advantage over the 20. That competition has only been won with a 12. Hundreds of thousands of dollars at stake and nobody uses a 20. That contest is attended by the best of the best, and they all use a 12. That should tell us something "tangible".
Pellets make up patterns, but there is a difference in how that pattern is made up with different gauges. Pay attention here: The "tangible" difference is shot string. In that lies THE answer. I've shot a lot at night under the lights. If the conditions are right you can actually see the shot string for an instant. The shot sting out of a max load 20 will be strung out twice as long as a 1oz. 12. That means less effective pattern at the taraget. What is ridiculous is that someone who professes to be and expert doesn't take it into consideration.
Use you 20, but use it within is acceptable range. Taking 55 yd shots-and that qualifies as long range shotgunning-at a bird wiith a 20 is not fair to the bird. But, I've found that know it alls usually don't care about such things,

Battue

The omnipresent meaningless shot string?

E. D. Lowry on SHOTSTRING

Burrard was right all along-- shotstring means nothing in the field, and Lowry proved it.

The article-interesting reading by the way-however, does not apply to this "discussion", in that it compared three different 12 gauge loads. You and I differ in our view re: the different capabilities of the 12 vs. the 20, and that comparison was not addressed. The 20's shot string will be even longer, due to smaller bore diameter of the 20, and the resulting deformation of additional pellets. Also the author is basing his conclusions and calculations on a PERFECT point to the bird. The less perfect that is, the more critical shot string becomes with regard to clean kills. Most of us do not make repetitive perfect points on 55 yard moving targets under field conditions.

Battue

Randy: I've been thinking about your responses. I have to admit that anyone who takes the time to read Lowry's article cares about his shotgunning. Therefore, I apologize for my comment about regarding not caring about crippling birds.
We both are obviously opinionated people, that happen to disagree. However, I may have made a conclusion that was wrong. The crippling of the animals we hunt is something that really bothers me. If I was in error regarding you, again I apologize.

Battue

Battue

It hardly matters if someone disagrees. I'd be a bit of a sea slug having spent nearly 40 years hunting pheasants, reloading, testing & patterning ammo, choke tubes, powder, wads, serving as a paid consultant, gunwriter, etc., and had no opinions at all. Osmosis should offer me something by now. When you average 35 or so wild roosters a year, every year, out of Illinois ditches and autopsy the results even the very the dimmest of bulbs should come away with something.

Lowry has the most extensive, credible data to date. But, E. D. Lowry was not attempting to debunk or validate Burrard, Oberfell & Thompson, Brindle, Zutz, or anyone else. That his results showed that Burrard and Oberfell were right all along was the conclusion, but not the goal.

I don't sell shotguns, and naturally could care less who worships what gauge. Certainly, I do care very much what I hunt with and what works the best under my conditions year after year. I report on results, not knowing or particularly caring what an individual may be doing in another area, state, or country.

Shotstring does not matter on pheasants. It is not something said flippantly, or with the intent to increase cripples. I don't believe anyone intends to cripple pheasants, but if they don't pattern their gun then that may well be the unintended result. Even IF I was to assume worst case scenario pattern thinning due to shot-stringing at 50 yards on 90 degree crossers, that changes nothing on pheasants. I'm hardly pass-shooting on pheasants from a pheasant blind, or sky-busting at pheasants.

We all are always using the wrong choke all the time; that seems to bother a few people-- but that is the case:

Why Your Shotgun Always Throws the 'Wrong Pattern'

That may give you more to disagree about, but hopefully while disagreeing you are also thinking about it-- the whole point of it all.

Ok, well thought out response. If you had started out that way, we would not have been pissing on the keyboard.
I just got in from grouse hunting and going out again early tomorrow, so I have to do this quick. I still disagree with you, but you have made me put more thought into my opinion. Another area that I question is the validity of even shooting at a 50+ yard pheasant. This is not meant to be argumentative. My experience comes from a different direction than yours. I don�t know how much you shoot-and I�m not saying this to brag
-but I shoot somewhere between 15,000 to 18,000 shotgun shells a year between competition and practice. Maybe you shoot as much or even more, but most don�t. I really should be much better than I am!!! Because of that I know how difficult it is to consistently break a 50 yard target. And we both know a pheasant is harder to bring down than a clay target. Sometimes you get on a roll and can�t seem to miss. Others you can�t buy a chip. This is when you are setup with the best foot position, hold point, predetermined break point, visual awareness, know when and where the target will appear, etc. In the field you don�t have those advantages. Consistency in competition or the field should be one or goals. It�s how we get better.

The second reason that I don�t shoot at 50 yard pheasants is let�s say were in S.D. There are so many birds available, why take the chance of crippling a bird when another one will be flushed shortly. If the opposite is the case, and you are hunting an area with few birds, I wouldn�t shoot because you are dealing with a limited resource. Once again just my opinion regarding the value I place on a hunted animal.

As I said your comments have made me think. But I have a question for you. What are your thoughts on the examples I gave regarding the best competitive shooters using the 12 over other gauges when permitted to do so? My position is not just based on my own opinion, but has developed also because of bs sessions we have had. They wouldn�t think of entering a sporting clay championship and expect to win with any thing other than the 12. As I stated previously, I have nothing against anyone using a 20 or any other gauge, as long as they use it within its reasonable limitation.

Took the time to read your link, and it doesn�t give me any reason to disagree again. In clay shooting chokes are something I don�t worry much about, because of the variability that occurs with distance, shell used, temperature of shell, position of clay, perhaps even altitude and other factors I don�t understand. I do know that the best tend to use tight chokes, and rely on their pointing ability and not pattern spread to break a target.
I personally believe if you make the perfect move and point and put the clay on the front edge of your shot string-there�s that word again-cylinder will break any target that can be broken. However, again it goes back to that perfect move.

Ok gotta go. At least I don�t have to wipe off the keyboard!!!!

Battue

There are a plethora of reasons that attempting to apply clay-chipper values to pheasant hunting does not work-- not the least of which is the lack of 12 ga. "class" sporting clay loads (1-1/8 oz.) in 20 ga. AA or STS platforms. Weight is of little factor in clay sports compared to field use, except that many folks (myself included) find longer, heavier guns to be smoother and obviously softer shooting-- very important when eating cases of shells. Totally unimportant to me when two shots in a day is all there is.

Determining a suitable load for pheasants is not that difficult at all-- you pattern the gun at the ranges you intend to bag birds at.

The pattern board determines the adequacy of a given shell / choke combination at a specific range. Once you have found what you feel is a "no-patch" 100% lethal load for the distances you intend to shoot at, the rest is practice placing that pattern where you need to place it.

If your gun does not fit you, if your gun does not shoot to point of aim . . . you might as well stay home. If you don't pattern your gun, you will have no idea what you are trying to place on the bird. Fine if you enjoy having no idea, not so fine if you want the most out of your shotgun and your time afield.

This is all fine and dandy but the future of pheasant hunting is going to be the use of non-toxic shot. The MN DNR is even thinking of requiring ALL non-toxic on public and private land. So I think the banter here should be directed at the 20ga. and its ability with ringnecks using non-toxic. I opened a thread on this a couple of weeks ago but it has generated limited response.

Just a couple points re: your statements:

�There are a plethora of reasons that attempting to apply clay-chipper values to pheasTant hunting does not work-- not the least of which is the lack of 12 ga. "class" sporting clay loads (1-1/8 oz.) in 20 ga. AA or STS platforms.

There is another shotgun game, not as well known as sporting clays, but in reality is a more difficult form of sporting clays. Target distance on the whole is farther and presentations more complex. It�s called FITASC. Becoming more popular each year. The shot load maximum is 1 ounce. Winchester makes a 20 ga. 1 ounce AA target load-their class target load-in 1 ounce.
Nobody who wins uses it. Since you where comparing 1 1/8 ounce to 1 1/8 ounce the reference applies since we are now comparing 1 ounce to 1 ounce.
Probably in the next 2 years, sporting clays in the U.S. will mandate maximum load to 1 ounce in order to be the same as the rest of the countries with which it competes, since the game is becoming more international with each year. Wonder what will happen then?


�Determining a suitable load for pheasants is not that difficult at all-- you pattern the gun at the ranges you intend to bag birds at.�


�I dropped this rooster right at 55 yards with a B-80 20 ga., Fiocchi GP #5's, and the help of a Trulock PH extended choke. They don't get much deader better.�

Are you saying you go out with the intention of shooting pheasants at 50 plus yards? If so and you consistently make clean kills, I tip my hat.

Battue

I certainly hope that isn't the case. Lead is non-soluble in water, and the ground is where it comes from.

As far as toxicity, we can all suck on exhaust pipes of cars or look at coal-fired generating stations to find enough to satisfy Greenpeace. Far better to stick it to hunters, where crop damage and automobile damage is uncleverly ignored though it has been estimated exceed to 1-1/2 billion a year.

Your posting was not ignored. I simply have zero experience with "no-tox" on pheasants, so have nothing to offer.

I can theorize, of course. "No-Tox" means nothing specific, and there is a big battle going on right now in the price / performance dept. With some of the better Hevi-13 / Fed. Heavyweight / Wingmaster HD / Olin Xtra Range loads now going for $4 a shell, or more-- there is a limit as to what families can afford to "shell out." Literally.

It may not impact pheasant hunting as badly, as anyone who goes through 2 boxes of shells around here has had a great year. But a family outing for doves?

What I suspect, but do not know, is that due to the larger case capacity required for larger shot, along with the tremendously thicker wads used for steel . . . the 20 ga. will return to what it was considered back when the 1 oz. 2-3/4 in. load was as good as it got: a limited range, poor sub. for a 12 ga. based primarily on insufficient pellet count to properly populate a pattern at significant range.

I to believe the non-toxic line is a bunch of bs. And unless we can invent a cheeper substitute or find a new elemental element-highly unlikely-shotgunning will definitely change as we know it. There are two obivious answers to the problem. The first is to find ways to lower the cost of existing non-toxic shells. This really should not be one of the solutions, but unfortunately it may be. The second is to educate and place political pressure on legislatures. Along with defense of second amendment rights groups such as the NRA should work to defeat the enactment such regulations. The mandated use of non-toxic and firearm restrictions are in essence different sides of the same coin. My question to many is do you belong to the NRA? I certainly don't agree with all their positions, or for a better way to say it, I don't always agree with the way they get the job done, but to their credit they have done a good job. The debate is also presently going on with the use of rifle bullets in Calif. If we don't respond soon it will be to late or more difficult to correct in the future.

Battue

Randy on a side to all this ballistic gack could you post a couple of more pics of Rocky if you don't mind?

I just love lookin at that old hound!

Mark D

He prefers to be called "mature." <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Thx Randy that made my day, he is one nice and mature looking young stud...grins

Tell the Rock Star to make a trip to Montana for rooters come fall.

Mark D

I'm not one of the "shotgun experts" that have posted prior to me, I just go out and hunt pheasants. I have a 12 ga O/U that I shoot 1.5oz #6 (the stock is too long for me) with pretty poor results. On the other hand I can shoot my 20 ga, (with a 1" shorter stock) using 1 1/8 oz #6 pretty darned good. My partner and I took 15 birds yesterday.

Yepper bb guns are all about fit IMO.

Mark D

If they go to all non-toxic.. I'm shootin the SP10 and 3.5in #5's at everything!!

I Have shot most of them with a 20, lately all with a 28 ga. I make no attempt to shoot at the 50-yarders, but specialize in killing all the close ones. Last year I went with 7 guys to SD, after Thanksgiving(late season), killed a limit a day, no cripples lost. Every one else in the party lost a couple of cripples. I shoot an ounce of 5's in a 5-pound sxs.

I went hunting at a place here in AZ this past weekend and used my 20ga Superposed. Worked like a charm, just like always

What about a Weatherby O/U or semi-auto?