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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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****This isn't a commentary or rant about anyone here, just a general observation about something that I think most shooters could improve on****
I suppose my irritation with the entire idea of "MOA" shooting is that people shoot to accomplish the goal of "MOA" rather than what they need to actually do. Which is why I think we have gravitated toward 3 shot groups, to chase the elusive "MOA" that we might not even need.
I've never shot a deer that a 2.5MOA gun wouldn't have worked for. And never fired more than four shots while hunting (the only time I fired four was once when I shot two deer).
So every year I fire one magazine full (4 shots) at one of those targets with the 2"ish orange diamonds. And all four shots, for as long as I've owned the gun, have landed in that orange diamond. Sometimes clustered tightly, sometimes spread out a bit more. But always well within what I need for my hunting. I fire four because I don't think I'll ever reload to shoot at deer, and I just want to be accurate enough for my hunting, and life is good.
It really doesn't matter to me what 10 shots will do because honestly, by the second group of our challenge my neck was so cricked up I had a headache and I had eye fatigue from trying to squint into the eyebox of the too-low scope. There was a ton of shooter error involved, that I'll never experience in the field (because I don't ever carry that janky setup), so I don't sweat it.
My complaint isn't necessarily with ten shot groups, but with shooters who chase goals that are pretty arbitrary to what they actually do with their guns.
For example, for the shooting I do being able to hit 10-12" plates offhand, quickly, at 100 yards is much more important than shooting off of a bench. So that's what I practice and what I've gotten pretty good at. And a lot of the people I shoot with need that same skill, but it's a difficult skill to develop so instead they shoot groups off of a bench and brag about "MOA".
If ten shot groups are useful to people, great. If ten shot groups are fun for people, great. I shot them too so I could play along in the challenge.
But I wish that the shooting community would gravitate more towards shooters developing skills that are applicable to what they do, rather than just using the litmus test of MOA group shooting.
I have shot more than a few deer where a 2.5 moa gun would not have done it at all. And other animals also. Just depends on what you are trying to do. We shot 22 shot groups generally so 10 really doesn't say a damn thing for us when we were shooting. The smallest groups were 10 shots. Most were at least 12. To me though, once you have verified that you have a gun capable of a lung hit at 1000, a head shot at 500 or whatever you need it to do, and its capable of htat consistently, then 2 things are MORE important than anything. Verifying zero to the max distance and keeping up with those verifications and what changes in pressure, temp etc... may do to those zero's.(including wind dope) AND the ability to put the first shot dead nuts every time, day in and out, of your "moa" requirement. The more shots you put into a group, after you know the combo is proven, simply proves whether you are a good shooter or a lucky shooter. A good shooter can put one shot a day into the middle or 100 in a row.... A lucky shooter can often put the first shot fairly close and actually in there fairly often, but gets to edgy to follow it up with more. The subconsciuos mind takes over and not only laughs, but kicks the shooters azz. And if you think this only matters to targets you are wrong.... by shooting a LOT of targets and being somewhat good at it, there was a streak of years that dumping a deer at 500 or so yards was gravy, nothing to think about, roll the dials and pull the trigger and go get the deer. If you think thats not what you need to do thats fine, but realize if you are good enough at 500, how gravy a split second shot at 100 give or take then becomes. Auto pilot. Easy. Peasy. you know the rest. I'm still most impressed with folks that can put one arrow or one bullet a day, smack on, day after day...
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Ranger
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Gotta agree with all of that.........
MM
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Campfire Outfitter
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OP
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I played this game after a few months of shooting pistols against a timer, mostly double taps and took a break to get ready for my half marathon. Not the best training for a bench rest contest but I played anyway.
I've never shot 20 rounds at a coyote or anything else but paper. I could care less if 3 shot groups are the industry standard or if it's a hundred needed to qualify.
What I do care about is being a good shot on game. So the more confident I am in my guns, the better I am when it counts. Forcing myself to shoot 20 rounds is good practice but I will stand by my own 5 shot groups to test guns and loads. Then get off the bench and shoot field positions that fit my hunting.
This is all just a fun challenge and should be taken as such.
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Campfire Tracker
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****This isn't a commentary or rant about anyone here, just a general observation about something that I think most shooters could improve on****
I suppose my irritation with the entire idea of "MOA" shooting is that people shoot to accomplish the goal of "MOA" rather than what they need to actually do. Which is why I think we have gravitated toward 3 shot groups, to chase the elusive "MOA" that we might not even need.
I've never shot a deer that a 2.5MOA gun wouldn't have worked for. And never fired more than four shots while hunting (the only time I fired four was once when I shot two deer).
So every year I fire one magazine full (4 shots) at one of those targets with the 2"ish orange diamonds. And all four shots, for as long as I've owned the gun, have landed in that orange diamond. Sometimes clustered tightly, sometimes spread out a bit more. But always well within what I need for my hunting. I fire four because I don't think I'll ever reload to shoot at deer, and I just want to be accurate enough for my hunting, and life is good.
It really doesn't matter to me what 10 shots will do because honestly, by the second group of our challenge my neck was so cricked up I had a headache and I had eye fatigue from trying to squint into the eyebox of the too-low scope. There was a ton of shooter error involved, that I'll never experience in the field (because I don't ever carry that janky setup), so I don't sweat it.
My complaint isn't necessarily with ten shot groups, but with shooters who chase goals that are pretty arbitrary to what they actually do with their guns.
For example, for the shooting I do being able to hit 10-12" plates offhand, quickly, at 100 yards is much more important than shooting off of a bench. So that's what I practice and what I've gotten pretty good at. And a lot of the people I shoot with need that same skill, but it's a difficult skill to develop so instead they shoot groups off of a bench and brag about "MOA".
If ten shot groups are useful to people, great. If ten shot groups are fun for people, great. I shot them too so I could play along in the challenge.
But I wish that the shooting community would gravitate more towards shooters developing skills that are applicable to what they do, rather than just using the litmus test of MOA group shooting.
Great post Bluedreaux. Also, I place a lot more importance to where the FIRST cold barrel shot goes than anything else.
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Great post Bluedreaux. Also, I place a lot more importance to where the FIRST cold barrel shot goes than anything else.
Do you believe that it goes somewhere other than where the ones that follow it go? Bluedreaux, I agree with the premise of what you said, however there is value in knowing what the precision of your gun is (for most guns). How do you determine that gun is mechanically sound and will do that task(s) that you require of it? How do you determine that it is sound unless you check- 1) That it is reliable enough to do the job? 2) That it places it's round with enough precision to consistently hit the target? 3) That it remains accurate by maintains zero? I'll ignore for know the MASSIVE benefit in practical use of being able to group shoot on bullseye's for score, how os that you do something as fundamental as knowing what size target the gun can hit, and/or whether it is still zeroed? Can you have a true zero (POI/POA) using 3 rounds? Is it statistically possible? Using you 2.5 MOA gun example, since any 4 rounds can be anywhere within that 2.5moa circle, when the 4 rounds impact closer to the edge rather than the middle, how do you determine that it wasn't because of a zero shift instead of random distribution? On the whole "MOA" thing, again I agree to a point. However, if someone is going to talk about precision and how accurate their gun is, than talk about what it will really do, not some BS cherry picked nonsense. When you talk "accuracy" you are talking about what size target that it will hit consistently. You can not have a "MOA" gun that does not hit an MOA target on demand. A couple 3 round groups tell you absolutely nothing in practical use of what that gun will do. A couple 5 round groups are little better.
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Campfire Tracker
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Do you believe that it goes somewhere other than where the ones that follow it go? Yes, sometimes they do.
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Campfire Tracker
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Then you have a broken gun.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Then you have a broken gun. It's TAK-like statements like that, that make it so hard to take you seriously. Of course the first shot will sometimes go to a different place than the following shots. Just like shot number six will sometimes go to a different place than shot number five or seven. If an unbroken gun will always send subsequent shots to the same hole as the first shot, what's the point in the ten shot groups you keep skadooshing in your pants about?
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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It wasn't sugar coated but Form is right. Cold bore shift is a shooter problem unless you have something wrong with your rifle. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_16_17/1422_Cold_Bore_Shot_or_Cold_Bore_Shooter_.html
Last edited by wareagle700; 07/11/15.
John 8:12 "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Blue, between you and form, you have to remember that form is likely trying like I do, to hit the same hair or spot on target every time.
And you are shooting for kill shot under time constraints also.. IE Hunting and then the 3 gun stuff.
Totally different in many ways.
TWR... some bullesye shooting, shooting the rapid fire parts of bullseye, was some of hte best ever cross training for quick but precise trigger control with the AR.. amazed how much good pistol shooting did to my rifle shooting.
We never shot 22 shot groups from a bench, that was part of the thing alluring to me aobut highpower. Yeah we wore heavy cheating jackets and such, but it was all either sling supported or body supported only. When you learn to shoot a lot into the same area, that way, and quickly, you become really mean from the field hunting positions, grab what you can for support if anythign but you have the confidence to flip the crosshairs over there and the gun goes bang instantly without having to think about the shot really, generally speaking... I learned to shoot so quickly on game that I became paranoid right after the shot, did I remember to check the target, background, etc.... If that makes sense.
Wife also said the shooting of game was way different after we started competition, she could see me slow myself and breathing down, settle the gun etc... and she could almost tell when it would go bang generally and then a follow through and big gulp of air..... not what I did before competition.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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This is getting rich. Any gun that doesn't put shots 2-10 through hole #1 is "broken"? Is that seriously what you agree with? Any gun that isn't capable of firing EVERY shot through a single hole, even from a machine rest, is "broken"? Because if shots #2-#10 might wander, #1 can too. How absurd is it to tell Scenar that his 1/2MOA AR is "broken" because all the shots weren't in the same hole?
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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I don't think that's what he was saying. That's sure not what I was saying either.
I read it as if he were talking about cold bore shots landing outside a normal group. If they do, it's either a problem with the shooter or the rifle. Predicting where a cold bore shot will land in the group on the other hand, that's funny.
Last edited by wareagle700; 07/11/15.
John 8:12 "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
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Campfire Tracker
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Agreed. You have to keep in mind that reality sometimes doesn't apply here.
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Campfire Outfitter
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I don't think that's what he was saying. That's sure not what I was saying either.
I read it as if he were talking about cold bore shots landing outside a normal group. If they do, it's either a problem with the shooter or the rifle. Predicting where a cold bore shot will land in the group on the other hand, that's funny. Maybe that's what Form was addressing but that's not what he said, in his usual braggadocios, over the top way of speaking about anything and everything he opens his mouth about. Do you believe that it goes somewhere other than where the ones that follow it go? Yes, sometimes they do. Then you have a broken gun. What he actually said was that if shots 2-10 go somewhere different than shot #1, the gun is broken. Which is an absurd notion, since all the shots are going to different places.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Then you have a broken gun. What he actually said was that if shots 2-10 go somewhere different than shot #1, the gun is broken. Which is an absurd notion, since all the shots are going to different places. I won't speak for Formidilosus but the way I took it was if shots 2-10 land in a different group than shot 1, then something is wrong with the gun. Of course, this does happen and is common but is usually a problem with the shooter. I wouldn't think anyone would expect all shots to land in the same hole. If so they need to visit the Challenge thread.
Last edited by wareagle700; 07/11/15.
John 8:12 "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
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Maybe he meant it that way. But, like I did with TAK, I've just taken to reading Form's posts in the most outrageous way that they can be interpreted and so far I've been safe. Who knows.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Unlike TAK, I have noticed Form is usually right. Abrasive at times, but right.
Last edited by wareagle700; 07/11/15.
John 8:12 "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
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Campfire Tracker
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Reading comprehension isn't a strong suit for everyone....
That's correct blue, all shots go to different places. So in knowing that, how does the "first cold barrel shot" have any relevance? Lots of people talk about "cold bore" shots like they know something and that "cold bore shots" are somehow different than the rest, yet it is all nonsense. Guns fire in a cone, it's not like shot #1 will somehow always land within a .25 inch circle but shots #2, 3, 4, 5, etc go somewhere else. All shots will randomly fall within the real group size, with more shots landing closer to center than to the edge. Unless you have somehow developed a way to know which "bullets" are going to land closer to the edge......
On your other comments, is there something on your mind? Braggadocios, over the top? No, I'm more interested real information getting passed rather than feelings, "I thinks", or idiocy.
So, again-
How do you determine that gun is mechanically sound and will do that task(s) that you require of it?
How do you determine that it is sound unless you check-
1) That it is reliable enough to do the job?
2) That it places it's round with enough precision to consistently hit the target?
3) That it remains accurate by maintaining zero?
I'll ignore for know the MASSIVE benefit in practical use of being able to group shoot on bullseye's for score, how is it that you do something as fundamental as knowing what size target the gun can hit, and/or whether it is still zeroed? Can you have a true zero (POI/POA) using 3 rounds? Is it statistically possible?
Using you 2.5 MOA gun example, since any 4 rounds can be anywhere within that 2.5moa circle, when the 4 rounds impact closer to the edge rather than the middle, how do you determine that it wasn't because of a zero shift instead of random distribution?
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Unlike TAK, I have noticed Form is usually right. Abrasive at times, but right. I suppose that's the downside to the written word. There is absolutely no emotion when I write. I use forums for the exchanging of knowledge, nothing else. Misconceptions, old wives tales, inexperience, lack of knowledge, and "my daddy said so", has held back the skill and practical application of shooting for most of our history. That has only started to change at a faster rate because of the Internet and forums allowing such a rapid exchange of information. As silly as it might seem just about every week at work I get the "well I read on -----insert Internet forum here---- that_____". 9 times out of 10 whatever they read is horribly wrong. People have no idea how bad information can effect very real things. Wareagle's 10 round challange has shown just how unrealistic "sub MOA all day long" is, and maybe that will help to get people to stop chasing it. Shooters need to get off the bench and learn to use their guns to hit varying targets at varying ranges from varying positions under tight time standards. That's practical shooting.
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