Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters powdercoating cast bullets

yeah, i realize you can avoid using lube, but i have been reading as much as i can about this process.
Seems like a lot more work than the traditional methods.
Anybody doing this?

Been doing it. Won't go back to the other way. To me easier and faster.

I am experimenting with this. A question, do you size your bullets before coating, or after, or size them both before and after?
I have some hitech engine paint that has epoxy in it. Was thinking of sizing some bullets a little smaller, then spraying them with the canned stuff to get about where the actual diameter should be.

If you are powdercoating, are you using a spray gun, or the shake and bake method?

it would seem that it's greater benefit would be in the higher velocity area to avoid leading.

What bullets have you been coating? And easier and faster than which "other way"?

Just curious, as have been thinking about trying powder.

Head over to the reloading/cast bullets section of the Single Actions forum, www.singleactions.com There are detailed threads on the subject.

I haven't started powder coating myself, but I have bought PC'd 250gr Keith bullets from one of the members over on Singleactions, and they are just as accurate--and a whole lot cleaner--than the conventionally lubed cast bullets I was shooting before.

Your question was not to me, but it is fascinating stuff. Seems they have been doing this for years in aussieland. And they were painting bullets as far back as the 20's and 30's here.

Oregon45,

I've read about it considerably already. What I'm asking is which "other method" (or "conventionally lubed") method is involved.

I cast quite a few bullets but like to keep the whole process as simple as possible, so don't feel compelled to drive them at velocities above 1500 fps or size them if it's not needed. Have done considerable experimenting and have found a lot of bullets don't need sizing (which can actually degrade accuracy) to shoot well. In fact many shoot better unsized, and lubed by rolling around in Alox.

This seems to be a very easy method of gettingt cast bullets to shoot, so am wondering which "other" or "conventional" method you two are talking about.

Over on singleacitions look at this thread.
http://singleactions.proboards.com/thread/13565/pc-bullets
Every one has different ideas on how to coat, I hope to start powder coating soon,
Ronnie

I can't speak for the OP, but when I read the words "conventional method" with respect to lubing cast bullets, I think of a wax-based lube forced into the grooves of a bullet using a press-type device such as a Lyman 4500 lube sizer, usually during sizing of the bullet but not necessarily so.

I agree with you that quite a few bullets need no sizing; for my own guns, I've measured the bores and simply cast to fit that measurement without additional sizing. The less work I have to do at the bench the better

Oregon45,

That's what I guessed, but wanted to make sure.

Agreed, for me casting bullets is mostly about speed and ease. If I can just cast 'em, roll 'em around for a few seconds, then load 'em, then that's fast and easy!

I messed around with powdercoating briefly. Didn't have the best of luck, but didn't give myself a lot of opportunity to perfect my technique. I'm pretty happy with tumble lube, so will probably just stick with it.

I cast up some 170 flat nose .308 out of a lee mould today, i think tomorrow i am going to size some of them to .308, the mould is .309 and gas check a few. Then powder coat a few, and also spray a few with that hi tech engine paint.
Curious to see what happens.

I think i probably should of cast some .375 in 250 grain for a .375 winchester. Running them up around 2000fps would be a could test.

I followed the instructions on this thread:

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/9348007/

. . . and got wonderful results loading for 357 Mag and 35 Whelen. My first batch, I made a couple mistakes.

1) I used airsoft pellets, to tumble with the bullets. They were unnecessary.
2) I lubed with Alox after sizing. This was also unnecessary.

My last batch looks great and shot great. I'll still tumble lube the slower pistol stuff, but I'm sold on this method for centerfire rifle.

Try this link, will probably answer any questions you have.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?184-Coatings-and-Alternatives

Please tell me what "shot great" means.

Ok. This is my take on it. Ive been casting for a long time, prob 20 yrs. I shoot a lot of straight walls and am a 45/70 freak. To date and have been powder coating about 6 months. I read about this and since I am a tinkerer just had to play.
I have dedicated a tumbler to applying the powder. I just throw the cast bullets in and a tablespoon or two of the powder. Doesnt take much. Tumble for just 5-7 minutes. I then put them base down on a pan lined with non stick aluminum foil. Yes it does exist. You want it on the pan. I then put them in a toaster oven at 350-400 for about 18 minutes. Don't go extreme on this. I do have some I think actually slumped so just enough to cure the powder.
I use the Lee push thru sizers for speed and ease. So much better than my old Lyman. I can also modify the Lee sizers easily with sandpaper and a dowel rod if needed.
I know some might think this is more work but I don't see it that way for me. For years I have made my own lube and actually enjoyed the whole procedure. I'm finding this to be a cleaner and easier way. I have even had clean barrels on guns with rough bores. Just my thoughts.

I shoot mostly cast bullets in all my centerfires anymore. I cast/size bullets to match throat diameters and am fortunate in that after years of mold selection I now mostly have to only run them through the lubrisizer to seat gas checks. Since I'm doing that step anyway, why not just add a squirt of lube at the same time? PC'ing is indeed an interesting procedure, but since I'm nowhere nearly done finished experimenting under "old school" protocols, I'll leave that to others to investigate.

Anybody know if there's any risk of increased bore wear with PC'ing? A diet of tens of thousands of soft lead "normally" lubed bullets at modest velocity won't wear a barrel appreciably. Just wondering how that would be after a similar number of PC'ed bullets?

I powder coat all my cast bullets these days; it takes about the same amount of time as tumble lubing (they get tumbled in either lube or powder, one way or the other) and mostly eliminates any velocity restrictions on cast bullets.

When I shoot something like a 308, I want it to be a 308, not watered down to a 32-20. I don't want to restrict my cast loads to 1500 fps, when there is a lot more potential there. Powder coating lets me push my cast rifle bullets to regular jacketed bullet speeds, and for the pistol bullets it eliminates all leading completely.

gnoahhh, unless you use a powder coating that has some sort of abrasive in it, there shouldn't be any perceptible barrel wear. The coatings I'm using are polyester, not epoxy. This is basically a thin flexible plastic coating; it's not very hard, as some claim.

One other comment - guys, you need to use an oven thermometer. If you have to limit the oven time to keep bullets from slumping, your oven is too hot. You should be able to leave bullets in the oven for hours at 400* without slumping. You can over-bake the powder coat if you leave it too long, but you should never see damage to the bullets.

Seems to be kinda silly. I wanna make holes in paper and kill stuff, not have purdy boolits. Cast, size and lube and I have no leading in 44 Special, 44 Mag and 357 Mag. Gas checks go on the 358 Win.

Let me just chime back in here. Yondering and gnoahhh, I am a fan of both of you, and I've taken both of your advice over the past year in my quest to do cast bullets.

I cannot say if there is or is not barrel wear. What I can tell you is that I did see some people on the various forums I haunt mention barrel wear. I think some folks saw a hazing of otherwise bright bores that they attributed to abrasion. Whether or not this is accurate, this comes from a minority of people trying the powder coat method. That hazing could be a bunch of things.

Hypothetically, there might be abrasion. However, it probably would not come from the polyester base, but from the colorants. Yondering, you pointed me towards a green paint. I found out the main ingredient in the color agent is Titanium. Running Titanium-impregnated paint down a bore? I dunno. However, it has not stopped me. If I do find my barrels getting hazy, I may change my mind, but I have not seen it yet.

Same thoughts here. If I do see barrel wear at some point, I may change how I'm doing things, but so far, with several thousand rounds down most of the barrels I shoot cast through, I haven't seen anything. Doesn't mean it can't happen of course.

It's nothing to do with "purdy", the color is an incidental by-product of the coating choice. I suppose being able to push them faster and eliminate leading may be silly, but I'll take it.

I killed stuff with mine last hunting season, and was pretty happy with them.

I can push a 270 gr cast lead bullet out of a Ruger Blackhawk in 45 Colt to 1200 fps and a 250 gr lead to 2150fps from a 358 Win with no leading and sub MOA groups. Ya, it's silly!

I have heard of the matte black powder possibly having some abrasive properties. Easy enough to not use it.

question on some of this, pertaining to bullets made for a gas check. Have you powder coated them before applying the gas check, and if so does that effect anything? Or, have you by using the powdercoating just left the gas check off on a bullet normally gas checked?
For what it's worth, not much, i have a couple of 250grain .45colt bullets i spray painted and then cooked for a while at the first of the week. That coating is darn hard on there, doesn't scratch. Under the heading of things i didn't think of, i noticed some comments about putting lube on bullets before sizing. I think they were talking mostly about those lee push through sizers. I have always used a lyman lubrizor and had never thought of doing this. I did use murphy's oil soap one time on a lee sizer for something, maybe a leeenfield bullet.

yondering: I went to powderbuy the pound and got a pound of your yellow/green suggested powder. Are there others you are using? Also, since these are going on normally gaschecked bullets are you using the gaschecks?

Sorry for missing this yesterday.

With 43 grains of H4895, I was able to keep a 200 grain bullet in a 4 inch group at 100 yards. I was also able to produce some 2-shot groups inside an inch.

Not spectacular, I admit, but mind you, this was my first cast load for a rifle. The same rifle will do 1-2 inches at 100 yards with Rem 200 grain CL's. However, I had been expecting my first try at this to be minute-of-bushel-basket. The really cool thing for me was that I chron'd these loads at over 2200 fps, and got no sign of leading.

Here's more:

The Whelenizer Makeover


The reason I did all this was that the casting bug hit me over a year ago. I'd done my muzzleloader bullets for years, but I'd never tried centerfire stuff. I decided to focus on all my .35 cal firearms. I'd taken the Whelenizer out of the rotation, because it was just too much for just whitetail. Cast bullets seemed like a cool idea for re-purposing it.

As it's shaping up now, my 35 Whelen and 1894 Marlin will shoot powder coat. The pistols will shoot tumble-lubed. There are trade-offs. PC requires that I do two coat/baking cycles, and that eats up the better part of an hour. On the other hand, it takes overnight for Alox to dry. PC's can be sized an loaded as soon as they cool.

GC bullets require GC. Apply your GC after the PC. That is the catechism. I found it holds the GC on a little better.

I tried to lube after PC, and found it was useless. The PC IS the lube.

Also remember that this is an experimenter's game. If lubing after PC works for you, there is nothing wrong in using it. This goes for everything here. There are no right answers, only right answers for you.

I have a buddy that got into PC a year before me, and refuses to try tumble coating. He got a Harbor Freight spray gun and uses HF powder paint and says it's the only way. I've heard others say HF paint sucks. The only reason why I tried the tumble process was that Yondering had such a great write up and gave very explicit instructions. I thought it was worth a try.

The only thing I can add to Yondering's method is that humidity changes the adhesion of the paint to the bullet. My last batch was done on a muggy day, and after the 2nd coat, I had voids. I just applied a 3rd coat and baked a 3rd time. In the future, I'll do my PC on dry days.

shaman,
I am absolutely jealous of that shooting station you built.

It's mostly all just pallet wood and scraps left over from siding the house. The cool thing is the shooting table's top lifts off so I can stuff it in the back of the truck and move it. There is nothing quite as luxurious and coming down to camp on a Friday night and eating your dinner at your shooting table, or waking up on a Saturday morning and doing a quick brick of 22 without leaving the front porch.

Crazy story: You have to remember that table is scrap, but it's all pretty solid-- oak skid runners and 2X6. The low bench I sit on (has the scales on it) is also built solidly. So one night back about 10 years ago, I come out to camp on Friday night and go to eat my dinner on the shooting table. No table. I'm fuming! Somebody has really boiled my bunny. What kind of fool would steal my shooting bench? I go to bed mad, I wake up mad. I get out on the porch the next morning and I'm sipping my coffee and still peeved.

Then I see a divot in the yard that kind of matches the table leg. Further out in the yard I see another. I put down my coffee mug and start following the line of divots. It ends up WAAAAAY out in the yard with the bench and the seat thrown up against a fence, but relatively unhurt.

Long story short: A small F0 tornado had come through mid-week. It had left a ball of tobacco twine and some cheap lawn chairs undisturbed but taken the heavy bench and seat out into the yard. A neighbor up the road had a shed deposited in his back yard. It was his across-the-road neighbor's. It was still in good shape and fit the guy's need, so he paid $100 for it and they left it where it was.

Interesting stuff, indeed.

In my 45 years of cast bullet shooting, I only briefly danced around with high velocity loads (that being 2400+ fps in '06's). I was successful- with bullets cast of linotype, sized to fit the throat, high temp lube, and a barrel that was smooth as a baby's bottom. After a lot of jockeying I achieved accuracy comparable to factory stuff, at around 25-2600fps, 170 grain bullets. At that point I said "What's the point?" If I shoot at that, or higher, velocity for hunting loads, I'll just use jacketed bullets and be done with it. (Long range target shooting would be another matter- extra velocity + a cast bullet of good sectional density= a leg up over low vel stuff.) A hard as sin cast bullet at those velocities will fragment like a varmint bullet, if it expands at all. This powder coating deal on a softer cast bullet that allows high velocity would be a game changer in that regard. Therein lies its utility, IMO. Like I said earlier, all of my bullets make a trip through the lubrisizer to seat/crimp a gas check anyway, and to custom size it to fit the particular throat of whichever rifle it will be fired in. Giving the lube pump handle a little bump during the process is no big deal- especially if it means eliminating yet another step. I don't tumble lube at all (not that there's anything wrong with it), I just never got into it.

The thing is, 99.99% of my shooting is at inanimate targets at 200 yards or less. I seek accuracy, coupled with bullets made from cheap soft alloys at velocities compatible with them. For example, my favorite cast shooters are a couple of '06s, .22 Hornet, and a Model 54 Winchester .30-30 (although like I said I shoot cast in everything I own). Best loads in the .30s, with my favorite 170-190 grain bullets, fall in the 1600fps range. Ditto my favorite loads in the Hornet- 1600 fps, 55 grain bullet.

A wise man told me once all a bullet has to do is make it as far as the paper target. Light loads are waaay cheaper (cheap soft scrounged lead, stingy powder charges), accurate, and conducive to shooting large quantities per range session. The small groups on the paper are equally as satisfying as if made by bullets going 50% or more faster.

I also hunt deer with cast bullets. A soft 190 grain flat point driven at 1800fps out of an '06/.30-40/.30-30/.303 Savage/etc. kills with all the moxie of a factory 170 grain .30-30- which is to say pretty darn good (by Eastern Woodlands standards). Is it the ticket for cross canyon shots in the wide open areas of West? No, probably not. (But then again that may be why God gave us hind legs to get us closer...)

I've settled on just that yellow/green for high velocity, and a cobalt blue for my subsonic loads (easy to tell them apart). Unfortunately I don't know who made the cobalt blue, a friend got it from a powder coating shop. I like it because the bullets hardly stick to each other at all when baking, but it doesn't handle the high velocity loads very well, the coating strips off.

I do still use gas checks on the gas check bullets, most of the time. The powder coating itself is not a substitute for gas checks, but if you're running a light load, like maybe a subsonic rifle load, you can leave the gas check off.

For normal rifle loads though, I powder coat, then apply the gas check. I've tried it the other way around, but haven't seen any benefit, and it's an extra step in the process since I still want to size after coating anyway.

With some bullets that have a large gas check shank, I've had trouble seating checks after powder coating. With the right bullets though, it hasn't been an issue.

Gnoahh, you've got the right idea about some of the benefits of powder coating. Another benefit, which you hit on as well, is that powder coated bullets aren't as fussy about being tuned to a specific rifle barrel. For example, I shoot an old H&G #20 (170gr) in 308, cast from wheel weights and powder coated, then size at .310". Loaded to 2400-2500 fps, these shoot great from several different semi-auto 308 rifles (PTR 91 and a couple different ARs) with good accuracy and zero leading, with as many rounds as you want before cleaning. They do tend to shoot more accurately if heat treated for hardness, but are acceptable for hunting as air-cooled.

Also, Gnoahh, if you prefer to lube a bullet after powder coating, it doesn't hurt anything, other than blow out more smoke/fouling, and that only seems to matter in a semi-auto or a suppressor.

Which 250gr bullet are you using, and how do you like it? I use the Saeco 352, technically 245gr, in 35 Rem, and push it to 2150 as well from a 760 pump action. (not a safe lever gun load of course) I'll agree that particular load probably doesn't benefit as much from powder coating. The nice thing with the coating is that I can run the same bullet to 2700-2800 in the Whelen too.

Several tidbits from the singleactions.com web site - the poster reported a 30% to 50% increase in accuracy over conventionally sized and lubed cast bullets. To me that is a significant improvement! Second, powder coated cast bullets could be used in Glock pistols with no ill effects...

i did some lee 170gr flat nose .308 bullets today, the mould is actually .309. I just put some bullets in a plastic drink cup and sprayed in some of the autozone vtech block engine paint and rolled them around. Put them in the oven and when they started to set up, pulled them and sprayed again. Actually that worked and they came out at what i expected at .311, or two over the .309.
I think i could probably run them as is, but tomorrow gonna put the gaschecks on them and see about bringing them back down to .309.
I tried some of the harbor freight red, and didn't like the results.
one issue is with these skinny 308 bullets and with the gas check design is needing to have a block or something to hold them.

Tried powder coating went back to the old way

That is true, but a lot of us have been using lubed cast bullets without powder coating in Glocks for years. I do find I can push cast bullets harder/faster in my Glock barrels with powder coating though, and don't even bother to check them for leading anymore. I shoot a Mihec 125gr HP @ 1250 and a 105gr HP @ 1400 fps from my G19; both of those loads tended to lead a bit after a bunch of rounds with conventional lube regardless of bullet size, but leave the bore bright and shiny with powder coat.

RoninPhx, I guarantee you won't have great results with Harbor Freight powders. Especially with the shake-n-bake method. With good powder though, you don't need to stand them on end, just pile them up on a screen and bake them.

Not surprising, as most jack up a perfectly good bullet or a moderately unbalanced one through the sizing or loading process, even with jacketed bullets.

The powdercoating is similar to what lubes, paper patching and jacketed bullets achieve: it limits friction directly applied to a low eutectic and generally soft metal alloy.

I think more people worry about lube (which explains a lot of concoctions) way before fit and balance, so its not surprising that powdercoating has so many fans.

I think you are right, the ones i did yesterday with HF red and shake and bake are going back into the melting pot. I think i am just going to wait for that green stuff to come in the mail.
I have about 50 of the .308 bullets i did with the vht spray paint. They seem to have a hard coating on them, but i think it is a costly way to do them.

I find this a very interesting thread and perhaps it should be down in the cast bullet section of the forum. I do have some questions and observations from what I had read so far.
1. It appears that using Harbor Freight PC and shaking and baking gives less than desirable results.
2. I heat treat some of my rifle bullets for strength and ability to shoot them faster. Doesn't heating the bullets again to set the PC and then allowing them to air cool just remove all the heat treatment I had done previously?
3. It appears that one should apply gas checks and do any sizing necessary AFTER applying PC.
4. Once bullets are coated they don't need to be stood on end in the oven to bake the PC.
5. Powder coating seems to allow bullets to be driven faster than typical lead alloy without leading the barrel often associated with "fast" lead bullets.
6. Powder coating seems to allow bullets to achieve better accuracy. Why would that be?

Can I get an AMEN!

Not sure what you’re using for an oven, but it would be wise to stay away from the one in the kitchen for PC baking. I had a toaster oven specifically for the process.

Amen!

1. Different ingredients make different cakes.
2. Heat removes hardness strength from lead alloys; shot strings, ambient temp, aging and drawing/annealing by heating and cooling will lower BHN of a lead alloy.
3. Depends. It will eliminate shearing and tearing and deformation, the same way sizing after lubing the conventional way will. Accuracy will still have greater suck potential if the check is sized out of alignment....
4. Not for the powder coat.
5. Yes, just like jacketed bullets can be driven faster without leading.
6. Accumulation of leading decreases accuracy, as does poor fit. Like I said before, some people jack up fit so bad by either sizing or loading even loads that don't lead can shoot like crap.



Five softnosed 22 Hornets that chronied at 2,900 fps without powder coating.

Its best to fix the outcome and hedge bets before powder is dumped, or, if people gave as much attention to bullets as to dumping powder, most other minor ills will go unnoticed.

Don't turn darts into boomerangs....

2- Do the heat treat and powder coat in the same process, if it gives the hardness you need. If not, heat treat after powder coating. When I want to heat treat, on the last round of coating (usually do 2 coats) I pour a pitcher of cold water over the bullets right out of the oven. (Dont try to dump the bullets in the water while they're hot, that pulls the coating off and leaves bare spots where they stuck together.)

3- correct

4- that's my method anyway. Some powders stick bullets together worse than others though, even different colors of the same brand. Candy colors are the worst.

5- yes, exactly

6- I haven't noticed better accuracy necessarily, but I have noticed more rounds (a LOT more) down the barrel before accuracy starts to drop off.