Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa Shooting Cecil the Lion

Story must have gotten around by now....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...killer-revealed-as-American-dentist.html

I figure folks here are uniquely qualified to comment on this.

Birdwatcher

The information coming out is changing daily. It is interesting to watch the story develop, but IMHO enough data has not been vested to have an informed opinion.

Well one thing is for sure O Cec is not with us or them anymore.

It has gotten around, and it lacks the redeeming elements of the half-mil rhino story for sure. Someone's life is going to be turned to schitt here.

Crossbow? What a cluster.

Things are bad enough for this man to have closed his practice and hire private security for his family.

It is a shameful showing of ignorance on behalf of misinformed agenda driven azzholes.

As a felon he is forbidden from possessing a firearm.


Separately, court records have shown that the dentist has a felony record in the US after killing a black bear in the state of Wisconsin in 2006.

Everyone here on 24 should make sure with who you book your safari's. There are a lot of farms and PH's in the business who's only priority is to make money. You don't want to be in a world of trouble like this dentist.
Happy Hunting!

Zimbabwe Parks and Wildlife Management Authority is hauling the PH and farmer in question into court this week. I don't know what this means for the good Doctor.

Puck Cecil

This guy did a pretty good write up of the Cecil situation

http://www.wideopenspaces.com/social-media-explodes-new-developments-lion-poaching-case-pics/

I think it's too early to make a call on this one. What kills me in this case, or any similar case, are the comments posted by the liberal greenies. These people think nothing of killing an unborn child, but $hit a Twinkie when an animal is killed.

Mike

Just received a press release from SCI saying the memberships of the hunter and PH have been temporarily suspended pending further investigation.

Isn't that the truth, Mike? Sad state of affairs nowadays.

Yes, it will be interesting to hear the facts and details. Mostly it seems an enraged press and public opinion have him convicted.

Folks sit around our parks and refuges all the time waiting for a trophy to put foot over the line. Ethical? Maybe, maybe not, but often technically legal if the critters cross of their own free will. Being part of a study and carrying a name offers little in the way of protection.

Regardless, it probably sucks to be him at the moment. Hope for his sake that he had his ducks in line.

“Two of Palmer’s local accomplices are already in custody. Zimbabwe authorities now actively seeking Palmer in connection with this incident,” the petition reads in part. “We urge the Secretary Of State John Kerry and the Attorney General Loretta Lynch to fully cooperate with the Zimbabwe authorities and to extradite Walter Palmer promptly at the Zimbabwe government’s request.”

http://news.yahoo.com/letter-to-pat...e-lion-s-death-apologizes-165511095.html

No wonder hes in hiding. Basically he royaly screwed the pooch.

There was no crossbow used.

Source? This is contrary to what is being widely reported.

Jim

I'll try to find the photo(s) that were posted. Also previous hunt photos show a compound of some kind. I'm not versed enough to identify the brand.

Photo of the hunter, lion and bow. Someone with skill can enlarge the pic.

That's a different lion on a different hunt.

Everyone with a picture of themselves, hunting on the internet ,is going to have to push back on this ,as it is going viral and all hunters are going to get a black eye over a lion hunt in Africa. None of the facts are going to be brought up, just all emotion, and crazy comments. This is going to go against all hunting and will eventually be against guns in general.

Source? In fact I have yet to hear or read anything here locally of a crossbow being used.

I didn't say a crossbow was used. I just corrected your unsooured error regarding the photo.

Been thirty years since I lived in Africa but AFAIK.....

...had this not gone viral after being reported by outside "Conservation" organizations, an appropriate donation to the appropriate Zimbabwean officials would have made this all go away.

...eventually some significantly larger donations will make this all go away.

Big game hunting will continue unabated in Zimbabwe because of the profits accrued by the appropriate officials from the hefty fees charged.

It is hard to feel much sympathy for a guy previously convicted of de-facto poaching, but the unfortunate Dentist will have to relocate his practice and will suffer cyber-stalking by fanatics for at least some period of time. Probably he will have to open his practice under a different name.

I dunno what the outcome for the PH will be, loss of his livelihood as a PH seems likely.

By next week the media circus will have moved on.

The only lasting damage will be hard to measure; an enduring stain on the image of SCI, and on hunting and hunters in general among the clueless. Unfortunately there's a LOT of clueless out there and they don't like hunting anyway.

As for the lion; at the remarkably old age of thirteen Cecil was at the end of his run and would of course shortly have been killed by other lions or starved to death after being evicted as a pride male.

Birdwatcher

From PH Ivan Carter:


CECIL THE LION
I have been bombarded with e mails, calls and texts about cecil the lion , I have seen many of the newsreels and I have spoken to several people who are truly in the know …some of the reporting is atrocious – here are the facts as I see them .

1- The lion was killed in an area where there was no lion on quota , which makes it a poaching incident – period .
2- There was an attempt to destroy the collar – why? This would lead me to believe that Palmer knew the facts – indeed he had a previous poaching conviction involving shooting a bear in an area with no permit.
3- In Zimbabwe it is not illegal to shoot a lion with a collar.
4- The property upon which the hunt took place was land that was involved in the Zimbabwe land redistribution….
5- I have no doubt that the landowner and hunting company and Ph knew exactly what was happening and they are directly involved in this POACHING incident.
6- Had this happened in an area with a valid quota , a 13 year old lion would have indeed been the perfect lion to hunt – beyond breeding , this lion at 13 years old was near the end of his life.


My thoughts…
I do not condone poachers , I ABHOR poaching – there is no difference between an incident like this and a rhino poacher in a national park - I believe that hunting when done within the boundaries of good ethics is the most incredible conservation tool – Incidents like these put a terrible light on hunters in general.

There are a lot of examples not just in Africa but all over the world where hunting and more specifically hunters dollars have funded the preservation , protection and enlarging of wildlife areas to the degree that species and wildlife have thrived. Sadly the emotionally motivated opinions and “politically correct” agendas often get in the way of any meaningful dialogue or solutions. Incidents like this fuel the fire, create a social media storm and paint all hunters in a terrible light – making it all the more difficult for good upstanding hunters to be heard and recognized for the good they do ...

A boundary is a boundary , I have no issue at all with a hunter shooting a lion in a bona fide concession where the lion is on quota – even if it is a named individual – UNLESS THE LAW OR ETHICS DICTATE OTHERWISE –

To all the hunters who are reading this , please know we as a body as a group are under the microscope , there has never been a time in history where its more important to do the right thing all the time, to hunt legally and ethically- to be ready and prepared to explain and educate - in this case I am pleased that this incident is being tried - it was ILLEGAL it was POACHING – that said its being given WAAAAY more coverage than it should be.

I'm not surprised to see some unethical monkey business out of Zim. There are a handful of names I trust in Zim - John Sharpe and Russ Broom to name 2 on that short list. There have been beaucoup reports about cowboy PH cutting deals with landowners and sell hunts that aren't kosher. I'll say there are some outright scams in Zim.

This hunter sounds a little greasy, but the PH looks surely guilty. I want everybody to take a good look at the 21st Century. The Internet is now a way to crucify your enemies and Yahoo News and Jimmy Kimmel will force feed opinions and peer pressure will come down hard on any dissenters.

You WILL accept Caitlyn/Bruce and champion his/her courage!

You WILL condemn hunting!

The Kardashians are MORE important that the Iran nuke deal!


I don't like the trend at all......

One unassailable fact is that it was illegal to shoot a lion in the area where it was shot. There was no lion quota there. This is probably a case of "quota swapping," shooting the game in one area and claiming it was shot in another where there is a quota.

Did the dentist know about this or was he duped by the PH and landowner? Who knows? But he was convicted of quota swapping involving a black bear in Wisconsin a few years ago.

Why did they attempt to destroy the GPS collar? Probably because it would have exposed the area where the lion was, in fact, shot. I find it hard to believe that the dentist did not know what was going on.

The problem is that this will harm all hunting. There are fewer and fewer hunters in the USA each year anyway, and most non-hunters think hunting is disgusting. The USFWS was on the cusp of banning lion imports before this incident. They've already banned elephant imports from most of the countries where elephant hunting is legal. Of course polar bear hunting is banned (for Americans). I would not be surprised to see California ban black bear hunting, as they have banned mountain lion hunting. What's next?

A good example is my wife. Despite my three safaris in Africa, including Zimbabwe, when I mentioned I might like to hunt bears, she said--and this is an exact quote--"You leave those little bears alone." Now she does not want to wear the beautiful diamond and gold studded necklace I had made for her form a lion's dew claw.

If I were the dentist, and I were not guilty, I would fight back on Facebook, Twttter, etc. I don't think (I hope) the US has an extradition treaty with Zimbabwe.

As for me, if I had FaceBook or a web site I would not post any pictures of game on it. Nor do I mention what guns I might own on any Internet forum.

The only good thing I see is that the Obamunists have scared so many people into buying guns and getting CCW permits that it will be more difficult for the inevitable confiscation to work.

That's it. Join the NRA if you're not a member.

Hey Guys:

I didn't read the posts. Sorry.

I'll wait for more details.

I'm a very old Africa Hand, lived and hunted there for years.

I do NOT shoot cats of any description at all.

I also lived in Asia for 5 years. I had ample opportunities to hunt tigers up in the highlands with the primitive Montnards where tigers were raiding villages. Many invitations, didn't go.

Lions, tigers cougars are strictly OFF my list completely.

Note that I am NOT an anti obstructionist. Any fellow hunter who want's to shoot same will never hear any objections from me. I won't even try to foist my philsophy on others.

When the game is gone it is gone ! In the coming decades we will see the diminution of species, disappearance.

It will be after my lifetime so I won't be around to see it but it is certain as the sun rises.

I don't care to hunt big cats either, but don't fault those who do it legally, and ethically. The "ethically" part excludes animals that are unafraid of people. There's many videos of him walking past cars, so it would not be ethical to hunt him, in any case. I have no doubt the PH made a big mistake.

That national park where Cecil lived would not exist at all, were it not for the money that hunters have previously spent in Zim.

This incident happened about a month ago. Curious that it pops up around the time of the Planned Parenthood videos...

Not curious at all, really.

read in many places by individuals that have spent alot of time around lions that it seems unless they are injured or provoked lions usually dont seem to completely understand the fact that those in the vehicle are people, when people step out of the vehicle near the same cat paying no attention to a car full of tourists all the sudden the cats demeanor will change and they start looking at the person as a potential meal....even those lions outside the parks, if they arent shot at like we shoot at coyotes around here, will largely ignore vehicles until they get uncomfortably close into the animals personal space.....

Couple of questions for those in the know. Is night hunting allowed, and is baiting for cats allowed in Zim? I haven't read many article about the hunt but the ones I did were short on any real info. This article on Fox has me scratching my head:



Since when?


Also, it's certainly unclear as to what the hunter knew. How is an American to know if the PH and outfitter really has a license in the area you are hunting, or where the park boundries really are? I depend on my PH to know the rules in a foreign country. Depending on how this turns out, that might be a foolish thing to do. Until there is any info detailing the hunters guilt, it's hard to find him at fault.

I've never heard of this lion and wouldn't know him if he was sitting in my living room. If I was hunting lion and he stepped out in front of me, I certainly would have shot. I have no problem with hunting along park or refuge boundaries or baiting the lion. I've yet to hear if they drug the bait inside the park or just outside the park boundary. Makes a huge difference to me.

Spot on, Kodiak and here is a good link to the reality that is hunting and it's key role in species preservation"

link

Too lazy to do this, but someone mentioned that lions HAD been eradicated in Rhodesia due to cattle depradations then re-introduced (likely by efforts of hunters) successfully. Could one of the Africa hands bring me up to speed on this?? It would provide very useful ammunition for me.

That is correct, Jim. Rhodesia came to be known as the "breadbasket" of Africa, but a more appropriate moniker should have been the "butcher of Africa". Practically the entire Lowveldt (southern Rhodesia) was turned into an enormous cattle ranch, save for a few areas designated as game reserves. Sometime in the 70-80s (I think) a few WHITE Rhodesians decided to turn away from cattle and as result, re-introduced a lot of species, including lion, that had been completely eradicated by the cattle industry. When I was there, my PH, John Sharp, was in the middle of a project re-introducing lions to his area, known as Malangani, which is now part of the million acre plus Bubye conservancy.

What I found interesting is that leopard for example, no longer took their kills up a tree to eat them, because all the lion and hyenas had been exterminated. That was in 2001. By 2008 when lion and hyena had been re-introduced, the leopards were once again taking their kills into the trees. Today, the Bubye enjoys one of the largest (if not THE largest concentrations) of lions in Africa, ALL as a result of Trophy hunting, which generates on average close to 75K PER HUNT to the local economy. Stop lion hunting and they will fade into oblivion.

Ahhhh!!! Thanks Bro, I have some SERIOUS balls to break now!!!!

Here's a good link for you that also includes rhino conservation there:
Bubye Valley

I was contacted a couple of days ago by a well-known reporter/writer who asked me to comment on the killing of the lion people in Zimbabwe named Cecil. I declined because, like most people, I know only what I've read in the media -- not what actually took place -- and I have not followed the story closely enough to be able to make an informed opinion.

I'm glad I declined to comment because I just checked the story and the writer editorialized on one comment to make it look more one-sided than it was. Another commenter made a statement that he can't possibly know to be true. A third point was made purely on the basis of "reports" that were not more than rumor. The article could have been worse, but I'm glad I didn't comment and get my name mixed up with that.

One specific question the reporter asked was whether it's "an indictment on big game hunting." I said it is not an indictment against all hunters any more than false reporting is an indictment against all reporters.

Steve.

Great riposte. Touché.

Rumor has it that in the weeks prior to Cecil's untimely death, he ran down a pregnant gazelle, crippled it's hind legs, ripped into her belly, and then ate her fetus while she was still alive and bleating. Cecil subsequently claimed he was doing research for Planned Parenthood.

In other news, Iran now has a green light to develop nuclear weapons, the Chinese are training to invade Taiwan, the American military has been decimated, the American government has refused to defend the country's borders, the president has been quietly sending thousands of more troops back into Iraq, Kuwait and the Ukraine, war still rages in Afghanistan, and ISIS continues to shoot innocent people, burn them alive, drown them in cages, and teach seven year old's the ancient Muslim art of beheading with dull knives.

Coming up: How to handle the abject horror and psychological trauma of accidentally encountering a Confederate Battle flag, a Nativity scene, a gun show, or a public display of the Ten Commandments...

Accurate Reloading in their African Hunting Forum has a pretty good thread on this topic, ten pages now. Posters there including some ostensibly employed inside Zimbabwe.

Birdwatcher

+1, I'm sick and tired of people going off on stuff they don't know jack schiite about

It first was reported that a "Spaniard" had killed the lion with a crossbow. It now appears an American dentist shot the lion with a compound bow.

It also was reported that the PH was arrested and jailed, but a letter posted on coueswhitetail.com today claims the letter writer is hunting with the PH as you read this.

It still is being reported that the lion was "lured" out of Hwange by driving around with a dead animal on a vehicle's bumper. The letter I just mentioned said the lion was shot off an elephant carcass 2.6 kms from the park's border.

A post on accuratereloading.com by a Zimbabwean claims few in his country knew anything about the "beloved" and "popular" Cecil the lion until the British press began reporting that it had been shot.

Sounds like business as usual in the world of journalism.

Bill Quimby

I kind of doubt shooting a black bear in Wisconsin would ever rise to the level of a felony. would like to know where this tid bit came from. There's a good piece on FB at some RSA area PH, who says, at the most it was a case of poaching, and the hunter might not have been aware. That Cecil was 13 years old already and at that age, beyond breeding and most likely only had about a year to live anyway, so no big deal. Only big deal to the kind of idiots who would name a wild lion.

I kind of doubt shooting a black bear in Wisconsin would ever rise to the level of a felony. would like to know where this tid bit came from. There's a good piece on FB at some RSA area PH, who says, at the most it was a case of poaching, and the hunter might not have been aware. That Cecil was 13 years old already and at that age, beyond breeding and most likely only had about a year to live anyway, so no big deal. Only big deal to the kind of idiots who would name a wild lion.

I am no expert and have never hunted lion and never will however my very good friend hunted lion with this ph two years ago.

We have been talking about this a great deal this week and first off his hunt was completely different being a rifle hunt they cut a track and commenced with trackers over and again over long days until they were able to find his lion.

In a country with 80% unemployment and a system that deals in institutionalized bribery I am not sure we will ever know the facts. I have read quotes from natives wondering why we cared so much about this and why we say nothing when their people and livestock are killed by lions. What I do know is how important hunting is to their economy and hunting is the only real thing that has brought value for these animals to exist there. Eco tourism isn't it.

The only other two tid-bits about this ph is that two of his sons just graduated from ph school. (probably no future for them in Zim) My friend told me this ph had his family property taken from him and given to a local commissioner.

Not to defend him but maybe understand why a seemingly successful ph would risk his lively hood like this?
Is he a byproduct of constantly working in a corrupt system?

I do have a question for a ph. I have heard nothing about a 2nd ph involved and was under the impression there had to be 2 ph's on all dangerous game hunts?

Not a PH, but that's not true. The PH must, however, be fully qualified for DG.

Lovin' this!

Hey Guys:

To summarize news to date:

Are they Kidding ??? Zimbabwe is the most corrupt, racist, disingenuous, duplicitous regime that ever existed! Robert Mugave ! Hesus Christo - cut me a break - please.

Their righteous pretense of indigestion/indignation and chagrin rings hollow.

The Dentist that shot Cecil is a dumb shix moron. He will pay big time. He has already closed his business. He can prolong extradition for many years but he will pay and pay. I'm guessing in excess of $500,000 and quite likely a million before it is over.

Zimbabwe jails are the model of deplorable human depredation. The Dentist will never server a day there. But he will rue he day that he ever shot Cecil.

Instead of b*tching about people b*tching about a poacher, you guys ought to b*tch about guys like this:

From today's Bozeman Chronicle

A Bozeman man admitted to killing a bull moose and a bull elk without a license last fall.

Andrew Shields, 25, pleaded guilty Tuesday to felony unlawful possession of a game animal, three counts of misdemeanor unlawful possession of a game animal and one misdemeanor charge of hunting without a license.

Gallatin County District Judge Holly Brown sentenced Shields to six months in jail and five years with the Montana Department of Corrections. Shields received credit for 106 days previously served in jail. He was also ordered to pay $7,500 in restitution to Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks.

Shields also lost his privilege to hunt, fish and trap in Montana for the rest of his life.

As part of a plea agreement, a count of felony possession of dangerous drugs from another case was dismissed.

At the time he was charged with the animal-related crimes, Shields was on probation for felony DUI and theft.

According to charging documents:

In January, Shields’ probation officer received an email from a man who said that Shields had illegally killed a bull elk and a bull moose during the fall.

The man, who knew Shields, said Shields had killed the elk on a ranch in the southern Bridger Mountains while bow hunting, and then he later killed a bull moose with a rifle in the same area. The man provided a photo of Shields posing with the elk antlers.

In January, Shields was booked in jail for violating conditions of the Treatment Court program. On his cellphone that was confiscated at the time, investigators found photos of Shields holding moose antlers.

During recorded calls from jail to his mother, Shields asked her to get rid of meat in their freezer and garage. He told his mother that no one could prove he actually killed the animals and that they only had a picture of him after they were killed.

Shields later agreed to be interviewed. He said he had killed the bull moose without a license on the Papke Ranch in the Bridger Mountains. He said he used a bow and arrow and it was on the last day of the hunting season, Nov. 30.

Shields also said he went elk hunting three or four times during archery season without a license. However, he said the photo of him with elk antlers was a hoax and that he found the antlers in his uncle’s shed and posed with them to make it look like he killed an elk.

Shields admitted to killing three mule deer bucks, also without a license or special permit, during 2010, 2011 and 2013 on his grandparents’ ranch, which borders the Papke Ranch.

Investigators collected antlers and meat killed by Shields in 2014 as well as the antlers from the three deer he had killed.

The length of the spread of the moose antlers was nearly 48 inches.

Fish, Wildlife and Parks information showed that Shields did not have a hunting license between 2002 and 2014.

In March, Shields was arrested after probation officers found synthetic marijuana at his residence. He was taken to jail and later charged with felony drug possession.

Oh Man! Now we have Jericho, Shot and Killed by Hunter in Zimbabwe. Cecil the Lion is Jericho Brother. More BS coming out of this. They have suspended all Lion Hunting and Elephant hunting,says the article on yahoo.

False report as apparently Jericho is alive and well:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/live-cecil-lions-brother-jericho-6178446

All this talk about lions, prompted me to watch Ghost and the Darkness again.

IMHO the guy is a bit of an ass even before this cat thing happened. I think he has a very shady approach to hunting in general and kind of had it coming eventually.
I do find it interesting though that so many think Cecil was tame or unafraid of people. If I were a perfectly evolved killing machine near the 500 lb mark I probably wouldn't find a 180 man too intimidating either. In fact he probably thought he was more of a menu item. Ask Siegfried and Roy how tame those big cats actually get.... Much like those cute Polar Bears on the Coca-cola commercials that will hunt you donwn and kill your ass for a snack.
I hear a lot of horseshit from so called experts about the decline in Lion numbers in the past years as well. They love to try to place the blame on hunters but to address the true issue one needs to point the finger at the natives who are breeding out of control and sucking up the land. Nothing of that mentioned though. F'n media.

Via facebook:

Cecil deserved to die!!!...

Shane Mahoney just released this excellent video where he goes into detail on all of the benefits of trophy hunting for conservation. It is well worth your time to watch it.

http://www.wideopenspaces.com/watch-shane-mahoney-talks-cecil-lion-trophy-hunting-video/