Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Bowhunting Is 45lbs of KE enough?

This is a followup to a post someone else start and I didn't want to high jack.

One of the coaches at the Arizona Archery Club noticed that my arrows were a little worn and I could use a new set. I stopped by another pro shop near my home, Ross Outdoors, and picked up a dozen Easton Axis arrows with 100gr field tips.

Today, I went back to Ross to have my arrows weighted and chronographed. I have:

26.5 Draw Length
60# Draw Weight
7.75 Brace Height
through a Whisker Biscuit

My arrows weight in at 389 grns (avg)
My arrow speed is 230 fps ES +/= .5
Producing 45lbs of Kinetic Energy

I would need to get to 241 fps to get to 50lbs of KE.

So my question to the Fire Family. Is 45lbs of KE good enough for bull Elk (with the proper broadhead)?

Two things jump into my mind

One get rid of the WB rest. You do not have a 7.75 brace height with a WB you have an effective "0" brace height with that kind of rest.

It's also very likely to slow down your arrows. Not by the 11 fps you want to see changed, but it's taking speed away I'm sure. I would like to see a test by switching rests with all other equipment the same. It's gotta take speed away to push through those bristles. Just putting a peep and kisser button on your string changes the speed and those are much less then the resistance of the WB.

Get a QAD or equal and I promise you your groups and your speed will be better.

If you want the best penetrating head made today, IMO it's the Slick trick Viper Trick head. I've never had one stay in an animal yet. With your bow this will blow right through any deer alive

THANK YOU Jim!!!!

JJ - not sure where you are going with that comment, BH is reduced with the WB mounted behind the arrow shelf, and can magnify form errors quicker, but it's still there.

I do agree, other arrow rests might be a better choice for a bit of speed gain, but it's going to be minimal.

Your arrow weight is about what I'd expect for a elk arrow in that draw length, JMHO.

Are you maxed at 60 pounds, or can you squeeze out another pound or so with the limbs full down?

Some bows have as much as 5 additional pounds over advertised specs.

I would wager that WB-equipped bows kill as many or more animals each year compared to any other rest in spite of their real and perceived limitations.

I would worry more about the type of broadheads I used instead of the KE crap. Lots of Elk have been take with a 45 # Recurve and Longbow

Mathematically and visually there is certainly a brace height measure.

However the debate over brace height is based on how long the arrow is connected to the bow before the arrow is loose and flying free.

With the WB the arrow is connected to the bow until the nock is free of the bristles, making it a functionally ZERO Brace Height. Worse yet, the fletching is the biggest jolt to the flight going through the bristles and it's at the very end of the arrow long after the release was complete.

I used a WB for a very long time. I believed in them with my whole heart. I killed a lot of game with them. As in most advancements in technology, we often wonder how we got along with out the new designs or ideas.

Place me firmly in that camp on this topic. When I finally moved from the WB to a QAD ( or equal), the improvement to my archery was significant and decisive. Now looking back I cannot imagine ever going back to that device again. The WB is accurate under 20 yards and even to maybe 30. However going to 50 it's going to be trouble. That long connection to the bow after release is often more trouble then you realize.

I have a stabilizer mounted camera. There was an accidental but very enlightening understanding for me while setting it up. If you think your stable and solid after release, you need to see what the sight picture looks like in Slow Motion at the shot, you can hear the release of the arrow and the "jolt" of the limbs to the sight picture, as well as the movement to the whole structure. If there was ever an " Ah Ha" moment for me to understand Brace height and how critical it is to a clean arrow release this was the moment it happened.


Lost Arra: I think that there are a far greater population of people using a WB over drop aways. Almost every moderate priced bow package I see these days come with a WB. Plus they are far less expensive and easier to install. Those factors certainly contribute to the amount of game killed just based on Pure Numbers in use. This does not mean that it's just as effective or even close. I don't think I have ever seen a WB in any type of competitive shooting in use by experienced archers. Basing the decision on what to use for me, would carry far more credibility from a Professional or other serious competitors over the typical moderately priced "packaged" bow for sale at the big sporting goods stores.

It's a brilliant invention for spot and stalk hunting, to hold the arrows firmly in place. This was the great majority of my style of hunting. However the problems with them far outweigh that single benefit for me. Great idea, quality manufacturing, inexpensive and easy to set up. All these are great features. However they are nowhere close to the same functionality as a quality drop away.

Once the readers have seen the light, I'm thinking that they will look back and understand what I have written here with full agreement.

I have been bow hunting for many years (over 40) and of the many things I have learned is keep it simple, stick with what works and what you have confidence in and don't try to keep up with the Jones's.

When it comes to hunting equipment I believe everyone has favorites and that will never change. To say the Whisker Biscuit is only accurate to 20-30 yards is a little much. If you are saying your setup was only accurate to 20-30 yards than O.K.. We are talking arrows setup with broadheads and many other variables that can affect accuracy.

I, personally like my Whisker Biscuit and certainly am not going to change for a few more Feet Per Second.

Also, watching "professionals" shoot field tips and 1 inch vanes is not going to make me change my hunting setup. Tom.

Tom, don't mistake my opinion of using target archery for hunting equipment.

The Wisker biscuit as I wrote has a lot going for it. However once the difference is experienced the opinion will change, I'll bet on that!

As far as the range, I too could shoot a group now and then with the WB as good as anything I can now with the Drop away. The main difference was the odd unexplained shot that was not as good. I was constantly stumped at the odd flyer or less then perfect shot with what I was certain was consistent and perfect form and release. Maybe 20-30 great shots, and then one which as off. Usually the greater the distance the greater the error. ( hence the reason for my comment on distance or range)

This condition was recognized by an archery pro in Idaho where I was having a bow string replaced many years ago. He pointed out the issues with the WB and the relationship to the odd " flyer" in my groups. He said to me with bold confidence that this is a very common and even typical situation with the WB rest.

He pleaded with me to switch to the Drop away. I would not, and kept going with this and disciplined myself to make the best most steady shots possible to solve the problem. The up side to this was my skills and discipline were very good because of the concentration for each shot. Unfortunately those odd shots still happened at random for me.

Once I had him put the QAD rest on the bow, well the rest was history. There was no going back and no question on the results. It's no more complicated then the WB, although it has moving parts, there is no adjustment for wear and tear of any parts like the WB has.

Please don't misunderstand, I'm not anti WB rest. I have a lot of experience with them, probably killed 50 plus animals in Africa alone with one. It's just not the best game in town for the guy that wants to eliminate all doubt and influence from that device.

I understand what you are saying and appreciate the various archery topics you bring up here on the fire.

I guess some could say I'm old and set in my ways and that very well could be true. I have had several equipment incidents occur while hunting.

1. Had the rubber tubing on peep sight break while drawing

2. Raised bow to shoot a feral hog only to discover all my sight pins were bent from some bush or branch entering the sight

3. Drew on a Bull Elk and had all my pins covered in snow- this was in September Colorado hunt.

I can picture in my mind the string that raises these fall away sights getting caught on something while hunting. Tom

Kinetic energy doesn't kill elk. Cutting a hole into the vitals deep enough to cause fast hemorrhaging does.

KE is a terrible measure to define whether an arrow, or bullet for that matter, has quick killing potential.

A 230 gr. rdn 45 acp has over 350 ft pounds of energy( 7x what you are looking at with your arrow) but you wouldn't want to shoot an elk in the chest at 30 yrds with it. More times than not it would turn into a long day with a better than average chance of failure to ever find your quarry.

Like has been said above, proper broad head combined with a heavy enough arrow to drive that broad head deep enough in the right spot will kill your critter quickly.

A well tuned arrow and a good quality coc head and 45 lbs KE is plenty.

I’ve seen a bunch of issues with drop away rests in the field. Stick with the Whisker Biscuit.

Bow setup sounds fine. Practice a bunch, and it will kill.

What kinda issues with the drop aways?

Arrows falling off the rest during stalks. Animal moves while bow is drawn (or hunter gets tired waiting for shot because he listened to the internet and has his weight set way higher than he has strength to hold for several minutes), hunter lets it forward, arrow falls off rest and he fiddly [bleep] around for two minutes getting set back up while the animal walks over the hill. One fellow broke his drop away rest, somehow, sitting in a blind.

Haven't seen any of these problems with Whisker Biscuits. I couldn't care less what competitors use. I want equipment that works in the hunting field.

I have access to free drop away rests....I use a WB.

Well there in lies the trouble for you. Your not choosing a hunting drop away. My arrows in the QAD are at least if not more secure in the rest as a WB is. They cannot fall of the rest, they are captured until I trigger the release to drop, or the shot is taken.

Actually they are more secure because the QAD or equal is a fully and completely enclosed arrow holder, The WB is only about 300 degrees of arrow containment. The slot the arrow drops into is not enclosed.

Not only have I never had an arrow fall of the rest with a QAD or equal I've never heard it happen, and actually cannot see how it's possible to happen? Once the arrow is locked in it's LOCKED in and cannot come off the rest period while stalking or crawling jumping etc.

The nock coming off the string is the bigger issue, not the arrow falling off the rest. That simply cannot happen.

This wasn't on my bow. It's happened to clients I was guiding. They used a bunch of different drop aways. I'm sure the qad is just fine, but there isn't a damned thing wrong with a WB. Simple works.

Holy schit, you should try a Hunter Supreme and an 80# Mathews Solo Cam, them's are the good old days.

Getting back into archery is going to be easier than I thought....

26.5/60# 7+" BH and that's all the speed you can muster? Even with those arrows? It's time for an Obsession. Find you a Sniper GT. Lots of used ones floating around as its a 2014 model. Warranty can't be beat by any other manufacturer. Draw cycle will be butter smooth. You can hold it at full draw for longer periods of time. And you'll gain quite a bit of speed. Should put you around 270fps and making around 62 lb/ft KE. True KE isn't what kills with archery gear. As stated it's causing blood loss. Momentum is where it's at. Gotta keep that arrow moving once it makes contact with your quarry. My personal preference, and I have run numbers till I'm blue in the face thru both KE and momentum calculators, is a mid weight arrow (375-400grains) with somewhere around 12-14% FOC at a minimum of 290 fps. Yes I'm a short draw archer. Yes today's bows will get you there. No I don't shoot 70+#. All the research I have done shows a point of diminishing returns in regards to arrow weight. When the increase is absolutely minimal KE and momentum wise and I have to give up a flatter trajectory, it's absolutely obsurd to run crazy heavy arrows at slow speeds. Many here will argue. But the numbers don't lie and the laws of physics won't change. My hunting setup will either be a 375grn arrow with about 10% FOC @ around 318fps or a 420grn arrow with around 15% FOC @ around 300fps. The 420grn arrow setup is new for me this year and will be for testing a couple mech heads on deer. The 375grn arrow setup is a proven killer when equipped with a 100 grn slick trick magnum

Archery has gone wild, no doubt.