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Only thing arguing in favor of that improbability is the fact that this was a well-studied and tracked lion, over a period of at least seven years with GPS.

Apparently the researchers involved have not disputed the claim of continued pride ownership. Jorge appears to think those people are rabidly anti-hunting, I tend to give 'em the benefit of the doubt.

Other reports have said that around two-thirds (IIRC) of other collared male lions in that same park were previously taken by trophy hunters. I do not know the extent to which this old one might have benefited from a reduction in competition.

Birdwatcher

Interesting. I have to believe there are some studly 4-5 year males looking for love around there, that should put him out of business.

I think we should point out that these "collars" are not to make them pets, but just to be able see where they go. We've known for years animals come and go across the various park boundaries, and are protected inside and hunted outside. No surprise.

Well it ain't just 'Cecil' catting around well past his prime.

The other pride male in a coalition with 'Cecil" seems sorta geriatric too. I posted this on the 'Fire so you may have read it already. Note that as recently as last year "Cecil' and the former rival (and unrelated) male that became his partner actually took over a second pride, which takeover would have occurred when 'Cecil' was eleven (??) years old.

Further note that these two lions had formed a new and sucessful coalition AFTER losing their former team mates and being deposed from other prides.

Fascinating stuff...

http://wildcru.org/news/cecil-real-biology/


In May 2008 in the dry, dusty South Eastern boundary of Hwange National Park, WildCRU research staff sighted two 5 year old male lions. They were sighted at Mangisihole Pan (which in the vernacular translates to the 'waterhole of the Englishman'). These males were unknown to the project and were of an age when male lions are actively dispersing to look for a territory and a pride of females.

Generally dispersing lions challenge and fight existing males or take over prides without a male. The WildCRU research project maintains a detailed database of lions in the population and these two were duly photographed and their sightings and identification logged. We use their unique pattern of whisker spots (these are unique in the same way as fingerprints), facial scars and ears knicks to identify the animals in the study. The lions were nicknamed the 'Mangisihole Boys'.

By late 2008 these buccaneering dispersers had invaded the core of our study and began associating with the Ngweshla pride and in so doing they displaced the existing pride male (know by the project, a little uncharitably, as 'Ugly'). The odds of two to one were too much for 'Ugly' who relinquished his control of his pride and range to the victorious 'Mangisiholes'.

The new males wasted no time in asserting their control and immediately mated with the females of the Ngweshla pride, in the process killing three cubs sired by Ugly. At this point my friend and colleague, Dr Andrew Loveridge, with whom I started the project in 1999, darted the larger of the two males and collared him with a GPS collar as part of Hwange Lion Project’s ongoing behavioural ecology study. He was named 'Cecil' a quintessentially English name in recognition of his origins (at least in our records) at the 'Englishman’s waterhole'.

However, lion society makes 'Game of Thrones' look tame, and Cecil and his brother had to fight to hold onto their newly won territory. They were unfortunate that their neighbours were a strong and aggressive coalition known as the 'Askaris' and they soon lost ground, with Cecil’s brother killed in a boundary skirmish in June 2009. In the process the oldest of the Askaris- a venerable study animal called ‘Mpofu’ (and father to the other three members of the Askari coalition) was also mortally wounded and died soon afterwards aged twelve.

On his own ‘Cecil’ could not hope to hold his territory and he retreated eastwards, leaving his pride and cubs to the not-so-tender mercies of the Askaris. Ironically, one of the Askaris was a large male called ‘Jericho’ , who with his brother’s Judah and Job were long term study animals whose fates we had followed since birth. These males dominated the Ngweshla area for the next few years.

Though defeated in battle, Cecil was not beaten and soon established himself in another pride that was without a male. This pride, The Backpans pride, held a rich territory in the far East of Hwange and Cecil remained their pride male for three years, raising several cohorts of cubs until he was once again displaced, in 2013, by a coalition of two other males (Bhubesi and Bush).

As he fled his territory he met up with his erstwhile enemy ‘Jericho’. Jericho had also fallen on hard times after his brothers Judah and Job had been shot by trophy hunters. So instead of fighting the two males formed a bond, initially uneasy but becoming inseparable as time went on. This is not unusual behavior for male lions. Singleton males are hard pressed to hold onto their territories in the face of competition from larger coalitions.

It makes sense to join with other unrelated males in order to have a chance to gain access to a pride. Having teamed up, Cecil and Jericho now dominated Ngweshla pride and from late 2014 also the Somadada pride.

Cecil and Jericho have both been focal study animals in the core of our study area in Hwange National Park. Both have been monitored with radio or GPS collars for many years and we have collected hugely detailed data on their movements and territories. Their behavioural interactions with prides and other coalitions have enhanced our understanding of the intricate and often bewildering social lives of these big cats.

Reading this it becomes apparent why these study lions are given names rather than numbers, it makes it easier and faster to keep track and clearly communicate which lion you are talking about.

Note also the mention of the "Ashakari" coalition of males, consisting of an older male lion 'Mpofu' and three of his grown offspring. Who knew that could happen?

It hard to imagine skimming off a significant number of mature lions via trophy hunting has no effect on all of this, OTOH the surviving male lions of whatever age class seem readily able to adapt, the lionesses still get bred, so its all good.

From what I gather, a limiting factor seems to be a reduced survival of cubs when pride male turnovers become too frequent.

I don't know if there are any avoidance mechanisms in place to prevent a male lion from breeding with a close relative. From what I can gather lionesses, which generally remain with their natal pride, usually birth their first cubs at around age four, which seemed sorta late to me but which may allow time for a turnover of pride males

Birdwatcher

Dude...

Repeat, there are NO ISSUES with the taking of collared lions and they ARE anti-hunting. One need look at who was behind this whole mess in Zimbabwe, that Rodriques guy, who wants to do away with ALL hunting.

No one here is arguing that there was any issues with shooting a collared lion, even me.

You yourself posted a link where the actual White guy from Zimbabwe monitoring 'Cecil' supports trophy hunting, else he would have nothing to study.

This stuff is flat interesting to me, which is why I posted it.

At least, when they are keeping track of so many individual lions (or any other species), you might concede it makes it far less confusing just to give 'em names.

Ergo 'Cecil'.

I think we have done pretty much the same sort of thing with different types of enemy aircraft since the very inception of aviation.

Birdwatcher

Then stop posting crap that does! fouc you're obstuse. This whole damned thing about A fuggin lion and YOU are the only one here making an issue about it. Here are the simple, established facts:

the best lion experts concluded that on average, male lion become pride males around 4 years old and have an average pride tenure of 2 years (exceptions exist) and in that 2 year period, on average, they are able to raise 2 sets of litters to independence and that thereafter they naturally get replaced/ousted by other younger males. Hence why a 6+ year old male lion is the best individual to be hunted. Any resulting death of existing litter at the time a 6 year old male is killed - either naturally or through hunting - or ousted from the pride is not a long term threat to the overall local lion population numbers!

Big deal if that lion you have wet dreams about was outside the standard deviation from the mean. Stop hunting and ALL game suffers, in spite of what your cooked statistics say

I guess we disagree as to the extent of data cooking.

noshitsherlock...

....and that's what you want to see.



Some things about trophy hunting and male lions. How many licenses are allocated and how many are filled each year? How many male lions have ceased being pride kings and how many never will ?

The number of licenses is small, and they all don't get filled. The amount of free range territory for lions is shrinking, therefore the numbers of lions will shrink. Humans and lions cannot peacefullly cohabit the same area. Parks can only sustain a certain number and keep the eco system in balance without them raiding outside the park with much frequency.

I still maintain a 13 yo lion needs to be out of the breeding cycle. If good old Cecil was stud enough to find a pride at his age, then more power to him. That is about like Kirk Douglas boning Sophie Vegara and her sisters. I would stand in awe, but there comes a point where it's not good for the species.

This thread was brung here in the first place to ridicule me over things I never said, arguments I never made.

Why on earth would I question basic tenets of wildlife management?

To answer your questions the success rate on wild lions is reportedly about 2/3. The take of male lions for trophies in some areas of Zambia and Tanzania has apparently been excessive, as it was for a period of time in that same Hwange National Park in Zimbabwe where 'Cecil' was.

And taking out 'Cecil' was biologically irrelevant as you say.

My own background is I got 150+ consecutive weeks living in a remote African village, only non-African for a half-day's journey, no electronic communication, with almost no logistical support beyond vaccinations, chloroquine and paregoric. Paid in nearly worthless currency, no piped water, no electricity. During that time I experience a military coup and its aftermath, and routinely negotiated roadblocks in the sticks manned by drunk soldiers.

So, I do have some time on the ground, and can claim some working familiarity with Africans in general.

I also had occasion a number of times to travel to the capital, try and locate the relevant ministry officials in their offices, and ask about substantial funds that had been donated, finally receiving mere pocket change. I also witnessed the main cash crop (cocoa) rotting in the villages, because entrenched corruption over the years had gutted the transportation infrastructure.

...which latter experiences led me to wonder how much of the trophy fees in Africa actually go as intended.

But, no less a personage than Richard Leakey has answered those concerns so its now a moot point.

(..and my time in Africa ROCKED )

Birdwatcher

Nice left handed shot there. Suffice to say you are WRONG (again). Every VALID study reaches the same conclusion: if it pays it stays...

I'm putting out my position not for your benefit, but for anyone interested in the subject. I'd enjoy hearing more about your time in Africa and am sure there is much we can agree on, and am not so sure we disagree on anything major.

I'd love to have the chance to chat with someone like Leaky, but I'd have to press him on the subject of hunting and its role in anti poaching. Leaky became the head of the Kenyan Wildlife Service in 1990 with the specific directive to curtail poaching. He formed armed units that had orders to shoot on sight. Hopefully, that is still carried on. All hunting ended in 1977, the concession system abolished, and the old blocks became poaching hot beds, When these areas were poached out, the poachers turned to the Parks. All that took less than 10 years.

Surround the parks with GMAs to keep development away and to have feet on the ground to direct anti poaching in the GMA's and you keep them out of the Parks.

I'd also press Leaky on his stance of how much money from hunting gets back local. I don't doubt that in most instances it is minute, but it is so because of the vast corruption in government. Africa is not a good place to make enemies. I know that Leaky lost his legs in a plane crash, and I know there is great speculation that the plane was sabotaged in order to get him. Rough politics over there.

Bullschit. You continue to lie, and miserably at that.

The thread was started here because these guys know more about Africa NOW and game management (ever) that you possibly could. They are correcting your intellectually dishonest and factually, fundamentally flawed positions. That's why it was brought here and it was worth it.

This is the reality:

One of the study’s authors, Vernon Booth, a Zimbabwe-based ecologist who has worked in wildlife management for 30 years in Africa, said that lions were now protected because of the high value attached to them as trophies. Locals tolerate them because of the income that trickles down. Without the trophy hunt money, locals would increasingly poison lions, which are considered dangerous to people and livestock, he said.

“If there is a complete ban on lion hunting, the tolerance levels for lions would just plummet,” Mr. Booth said. “And in wild areas outside of the protected areas, lions would be exterminated, and very quickly.”

This is what is REALLY behind BW's veiled exegesis pretending to be in support of lion hunting:

For many, trophy hunting recalls some of the most unsavory aspects of Africa’s colonial past. A framed photograph in the dining hall of Mr. Dorrington’s game ranch here shows two white hunters towering over a black man holding their freshly-caught game. One of the white men rests his left hand on the black man’s head, as if petting him.

Trophy hunting is often difficult to detach from an era of unquestioned white privilege in Africa, Mr. Dorrington, 56, said.

“It’s something for the elites, the rich whites, to play on,” he said of game ranches. “And that’s one of the challenges, to get benefits from wildlife to the black population.”

And lest I be accused of cherry picking, here is a link to the entire article, even the NYT get it: lion

So now I'm racist in the eyes of the Greenies? Explains a lot. I'm sure they preach tolerance for all the freaks but not for Nimrod the intrepid hunter. Where is Hemingway when you need him?

A puzzle that, but where ever it goes it apparently works. On the topic of GMA's, I have learned from browsing that the GMA'a around actual preserves are critical, and if not in private hands perhaps privately owned hunting areas can surround those too.



I think we'd agree on a profound gratitude we ever set foot in Africa, for reasons we might not be able to elucidate or even completely understand.

My experience is dated now, more'n thirty years past. Peace Corps varies tremendously with where you were posted, I was my great good fortune to be in Ghana, '80-'83. I had been hoping for Thailand or the Philipines on account of the women , "the White Man's Graveyard" was about the last place I wanted to go.

But, I wanted to teach and that's where the openings were, also worked school holidays on a vaccination team out of a Dutch Mission Hospital.

Ruined economy, almost no logistical support, no means of ready communication, and the Rawling's coup of '81.

Two continuous years at my post, only White guy for thirty miles, four weeks back in the 'States to be best man at my brother's wedding (I gave the toast in Twi (Ashanti) wherein I said his wife was... "ahem"... a woman of ill repute. It turned out I was about right, but his second wife has been a blessing). And then another year in my village.

Skinniest I've ever been, malaria, giardia, and once I was hallucinating and vomiting green water for three days.

But through it all, two-mile daily walks for water, soldiers at the school, monotonous diet (nothing but international food aid white rice the last six months) Ghana was about the friendliest and most non-violent place in Black Africa at that time, and I rarely had cause to fear for my personal safety there.

Their hospitality was such everywhere that I had offers of a roof and a meal everywhere I wandered, even from people suffering extremes of poverty. It is my contention that there are gonna be some real surprises on Judgement Day.

I have a hundred stories of course, but they wouldn't be well-received on the 'Fire, and I dunno this special purpose board is the place either.

Thank you for your interest.

Birdwatcher

<*SIGH*>.... Ya, that must be it.....

Birdwatcher

I'm ignorant on the subject, which is why I've mostly just read along here, but since I'm such a nice guy, I wanted to publicly throw BW a good, hearty rope to get outa that deep hole he's in.

Come on BW, you look like a fool with all the "from what I've read" posts.

Reading is how people learn things.

And you'll note I have prefaced most everything with "from what I've read" and "searching the internet", hardly a claim of expertise.

What happens is people can read the sources given and judge for themselves. I find Craig Boddington, the Zoology Department of University of Pretoria, the WildCRU lion tracking program out of Oxford, and the Panthera research non-profit to be credible. YMMV.

I am repeatedly taken to task by the same two for stuff I DIDN'T write.

But then Jorge thinks I'm lying anyhoo......

....and the other guy apparently has serious problems.

"Looking like a fool" .... is of little concern when everything I have written is true.

Birdwatcher