Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Is it legal to mount scopes for a fee without being an FFL?

Been mounting scopes for friends a long time and do it at work. Put an ad in a local forum today and just received an Email from someone telling me it was illegal if I don't have an FFL, especially if I keep a firearm overnight.

I would definitely not keep one overnight and would do the work while the customer was present. Does anyone know if this is legal or not? Called my local ATF office and they were already closed.

I've got a guy coming by first thing tomorrow morning and need to cancel if I can't do it legally.

Couldn't figure out what section to post this in so did it here. If it needs to be moved let me know.

I don't see it being illegal so long as you are not taking custody of the firearm. Mount it while they wait...otherwise, yes, it is illegal.

Grey area. As I understand it some states consider it a transfer unless it's family by just handing it to them.

Done for free it's ok?

Your tax dollars at work, courtesy ATF:

Pretty much says it all. THANKS.

Very few gunsmiths have FFLs, some do but most don't. Don't see any need to have an FFL to mount scopes for a fee, even if you keep the rifle for a person of time.

Here in Pennsylvania a face-to-face sale of a rifle is legal. Probably tens of thousands of hunting rifles change hands every year without going through the BATFE. I'm sure that's legal in many states, and I'd be especially surprised if it isn't done routinely in Texas. So unless you're mounting a scope on a Thompson Contender, or a revolver, or some other handgun, you shouldn't have any problem.


(1.) Don't believe what you read on message forums. (Well, except for this post.) Good chance the guy telling you that is sure of stuff he doesn't actually know, or wants the work himself. An FFL is for transferring possession/ownership, not to control who repairs or adjusts somebody's gun. Besides, you have no guarantee anyone at an ATF office will give you the correct answer, just as they don't tell you the real answers at the IRS. There's a reason they call it the goobernmint. If you think you need to, write up a little agreement that is decidedly NOT a bill of sale: "I agree to help John Doe mount a scope on his deer rifle on August 4, 2015, not to take possession of it."


(2.) Don't worry about it. If he's there, there is no way you're taking possession of the gun, any more than if you were sighting it in for him, showing him how to load it or unload it, adjusting crosshairs on a scope that was already on the rifle, or taking it out to shoot it in his presence before you buy it.

Too bad we're living in a day when this question needs to be asked, and people feel like they need to cover themselves. And that posting an ad like that gets people to poke their noses into other people's business. Next time word the ad something like this: "For $X, I'll walk you through the process of mounting your own scope. When we're finished, it will be ready for you to shoot it." Nobody says you can't teach someone how to do something.

Steve.

Everything in the citation Denton posted has to do with altering a firearm in some way (repairs or fitting barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanism). All of the pieces mentioned are integral to the firearm as it was manufactured.

The citation doesn't mention anything about attaching something to the exterior of a firearm, be it a sling, an ammo holder, or a scope. I don't know what ATF's stance on the issue is, but if one got dragged in front of a judge for putting on some scopes in the past, I think a decent lawyer might have a good, valid defense.

Going forward I think I would find out what ATF thought with the realization that ATF could change their interpretation next week.

ATF gives the citation in the US Code. Just Google that. See what the actual law says.

What the law seems to be doing at this point is carving out an exception, such that people who do casual gunsmithing do not need an FFL. It appears to me that fitting a trigger and fitting a scope both fall under the carve out.

Now on the other hand, if you check into a hotel in another state, and they insist that you let them store your sidearm in their safe, handing it over to them does constitute two felonies, one for you and one for them, because you have transferred possession across state lines. That may be what was worrying the person who warned you.

Of course, legal advice on a forum like this is worth what you paid for it, or maybe a little less.

Just talked to an FFL that is a fairly large online dealer and we are pretty good friends. He says go for it.

Ain't that the truth.

If you have a FFl you are subject to their rules. If they show up to audit, every firearm on the premises must have the appropriate required documentation. If you are not and do not claim to be you are not in violation

Caveat, The BATFE, like the IRS is an organism that operates w/out restraint and outside the law so fix stuff for friends that you trust and not for profit.


mike r

Best check this one out yourself with the ATF. From their Internet gunsmith Q&A page:

atf.gov

"Engage in the business" is a rather nebulous term. Basically their take is you are if you turn a profit per transaction - more than reimbursement for parts - as best as I can tell. So when I fix a firearm for someone it's charge for parts only if anything.

Here's a link to the ATF Q&A page atf.gov Q&A

If you disagree with the ATF interpretation of the law you'd better have deep pockets to pay your legal fees. BTW, the don't keep overnight thing deals with whether or not the FFL holder has to record a transfer in his bound book.

Denton,

I recall reading a ruling(?) where someone claimed he wasn't "engaged in the business" because he lost money. Pretty sure it involved a side endeavor, not his principle source of income. But I'm foggy on the exact facts. The ATF replied that he made a profit on at least some transactions. Being a poor businessman was no defense. Not squarely on point but you can see their thinking on this.

My info may be dated. Twenty years or so ago I did a volume of stock refinishing and pad jobs, nights and week-ends, to make extra money to finance daughters' educations. I often had a week or so backlog.

The local ATF advised that I would need an FFL to take the guns, however, I could take the stocks only WITHOUT the FFL. The receiver is legally the firearm. Since I did scopes for friends and family this question came up. ATF said that while they waited would be exempt.

I suggest you run your question by the BATF office that services your area.

Jack

Do it. Just don't keep them overnight. Simple.

If I recall, depending on the state, mounting certain things is tantamount to prostitution if you receive a fee.

Payer/payee...??

Regarding the BATFE bureaucrats, how are they gonna know that you're mounting Bubba's scope?

It ain't an issue until someone makes it an issue...

Keep it below the radar...

Bubba ain't gonna squeal...

DF

cdb -

here's another suggestion, worth what you paid for.

Don't charge for scope mounting. Charge a PARKING fee.