Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting 7mm 195 gr Berger Elite Hunter pics

Good news to those who have been waiting for the release of this bullet, an initial batch of bullets were available through the EOL Extreme Store and I got my hands on 5 boxes.......
Got some pics to share with the Campfire .........

]photobucket[/url]

How fast do you think you will be able to push it from that case? Glad to see they are going to make it to market.

Shooting for 3300 fps with the 195 gr. Berger Elite Hunters
And 3400 fps with the 180 gr. Hybrid Target bullets
This is a long throat set up for 100% use of case capacity in a
30" 8tw X-Caliber barrel ........


....... ]photobucket[/url]

Wow.... 3300 with a 195.... Wow!

600 rounds per barrel?

What's that case based off of? I just opened up a box of 28 nosler brass and layer one next to a 180 hybrid.with the bullet body /boat tail junction lined up
With the neck/shoulder junction the coal looks to be about 3.58". Should be just about right for my 700 ultramag action. A little room to chase. Now I just need to find a good smith with a reamer.

Bb

I'm also wondering if I should have Rock make a run of 8.3" twist 7mm barrels. I had them do some 8.5's a while back and they all sold. The one I have on hand is 8.75" but it has a little gain twist on the spout end too.

BB

A Rock Creek barrel in 8.5 tw sounds good, they normally have a slight gain and you will end up with 8tw at the muzzle,

They just shipped me a 30 cal in 8 twist for my 300 Werewolf (308/500 Jeffery) wildcat that will be used to test the new Flat Line high bc 30 cal bullets, and I also got a 375 cal 33" 7 twist Rock for my new long range wildcat project the 375 Warlord based on the 585 Hubel Express, Russell at Rock Creek has been awesome to work with and my orders were filled in less than two weeks, the 375 cal barrel is intended for 375 gr and 400 gr Cutting Edge MTH bullets and Berger Bullets have some heavy 375 cal bullets in the works !

My Long Range Hunter series of wildcats are off the 338 Norma Mag case with maxed case dimensions and throated for long heavy high bc bullets..... have five in the stable 7mm LRH, 300 LRH, 8mm LRH, 338 LRH and 375 LRH, ballistically exceed the Lapua and Rum cartridges in a much shorter coal, designed to run in 5 round detachable magazines from Accurate Mags as seen on rifle in pic .....

Barrel round count should be around 1200 rnds, that is a lot of dead critters !

I have no special connection and undying love for a barrel, it is an inanimate object, a chunk of metal with a hole drilled through it .... The threads cut into it on the fat end make them easy to remove and replace, why do people not get that ?

Got an 8.5 twisted Rock shooting 180 scenars and 168 hybrids quite well. Just not sure how fast my 7mm Remington can push these. Maybe 2700 fps out of a 25" barrel?

I'd like to know what pressures you would be getting with that bullet at that velocity. Remington's 7mm Ultra Mag 3450fps with a 140 grain bullet, with 110 grain H2O cap.

Man I'd love to send a few of these down range. I'm sure Shane and I could have some fun- me with these 195's in my 7-08's, and him with 230's stoked in his .308's

I just found a good load for the 215 hybrid in my 300 wsm. It's only clocking 2800 at the muzzle but they really carry well.

I wonder what the 28 nosler will run these 195's at. I'm not going any longer than 25" on the barrel.

Bb

I'd love to hear your thoughts on that X-Caliber barrel.

Contact Ryan Pierce @ Piercision Rifles !
He just got a 28 Nosler reamer and throated at 3.7" coal with the 195 gr Berger Elite Hunter.. for zero case capacity impact with bullet, velocity with 88.5 gr RL33 was 3120 fps when he got pressure, 8.5 tw 28" Brux barrel


My 7mm LRH has a 30" barrel and 8.5 gr more case capacity so I'm hoping RL33 will get me to 3300 fps

I've never heard of a 7mm long range hunter how does it differ from a 28 Nosler or 7mm LRM?

The 7mm LRM is on the 375 Ruger case and the 28 Nosler is on a shortened 7mm Rum case ..... both glorified to run in standard 30-'06 length actions at 3.340" but are handicapped by shoving the heavy 7mm bullets deep into case reducing case capacity needed to make the long arse high bc bullets fly, in order to run the 195's in these cases the bullets seat with bullet ogive in case neck, leaving an exposed rim of the case mouth to get deformed/bent ........ Both are great cartridges but to make them really shine you need to throat them properly and run them in long actions with minimum cartridge oal @ 3.650" , at least with the heavy bullets, with the usual 150-140 gr bullets you don't have that problem but for true long range those bullets are useless when compared to the 180 and 195 gr Berger Hybrids

The 7mm Long Range Hunter (7mm LRH) is a wildcat I developed off the 338 Norma Magnum parent case dedicated for long range type of bullets like Noslers ABLR, Berger Hybrids, Cutting Edge MTH, MTAC and the custom heavy RBT's.... It does not have the "30-'06 length" castration even though the case is shorter than the other two, it's fatter at the web and I imp'd the top of case to gain more capacity,
With the 195 gr Berger Elite bullet seated for zero impact on case capacity the cartridge oal is still only at 3.530" .... With the 180 Bergers oal is 3.507", the shorter , fatter and longer neck case has 8-10 gr more usable capacity than the other two and works exceptionally well in Accurate Mags ...

Cases are easy to form from 300 Norma or 338 Norma Mag case by cream or wheat fire forming or with a hydraulic water die from Whidden Gunworks, check out the video on Whiddens website for more info ......

Developed for long range hunting so all the concerns of the overhyped and abused term "overbore" mean absolutely squat !

Wonder if one could get those cooking 2,850 or so in a long throated 7RM... ?

In the Barnes #2 Reloading Manual from 1997 the top velocity for their 195 gr Original bullet is 2710 fps in the 7mm Rem Mag with a 24" barrel using AA8700 powder ...

the Barnes Original bullet was a cup and core bullet with a very long bearing surface , the new Berger 195 gr Elite has a much shorter bearing surface at .665" in length , that should help get the speed up a bit before pressuring out and with the powders we have now you can get better velocity but may still need an 8 twist barrel

I've talked to Ryan Pierce before back when he was just getting started. He worked with Jim See at Center Shot Rifles before Jim went to Surgeon. Jim was one of my favorite smiths and Ryan uses the same chambering methods Jim did. I'd trust Ryan but I want a little less freebore. I don't mind if the 195 sits down in the case a bit I want it to Kiss at under 3.6" so I can run a factory rem mag box and have a little room to chase. I'm guessing a reamer with .200" freebore would work for me.

Bb

Dang, I NEED some of those for my 7x300 wtyb 8 twist 28 inch tube..... will have to start searching...

They are only available from Bob Beck at the Extreme Outer Limits (EOL) Extreme Store and they will have them available again Sept 28th, the best thing to do is order now or they will be sold out before that date like the first shipment, by the time the prepaid orders were shipped it was over !

http://www.extremestore.us/berger-e...284-diameter-195-grain-match-box-of-100/


More info from Berger .......

http://www.bergerbullets.com/7mm-195gr-eol-elite-hunter-testing/

cool, I"ll try to get that done before we fly out for AK.

If not, I'll get on the next one after that, no time to hunt that gun this year anyway but having em for spring testing would be nice.

Tell me about the 375 Warlord

What action is needed? Also what will the ballistics be?

I need to get some for my 7-30 Waters.

Chuckle.

With a 30" barrel.

Might as well maximize the cartridge.

Yep. I've heard it said that barrel length is the only free lunch you get. I remember years ago that a poster named Flinch (I believe my memory is correct) had an 06 built with a 27" barrel He was getting some impressive velocities with just standard 06 loads.

I guess I'm just a product of my rasin. Being form South GA, anything with a barrel over 22" is a...spear.

Especially on over bore cartridges. The more overbore, the more a longer barrel seems to help. There is a reason old Roy liked his 26-28" barrels.

Does anybody know where to find some load data for these at?
I'm guessing tech support from Berger?

I have an 8 twist 7 mag that I picked these up for and anxious to try out.

I'd suggest contacting Berger directly. I just got some info on 140 and 168 for the 280 AI from Bob Blaine there and it was extremely helpful.

Prompt, professional, friendly and very informative.

So I did call Berger and Corey was awesome!!!

Super informative and very very helpful.

Thanks Corey!!!

Could you post what he told you? I'd be interested, as well...

[quote=Jordan Smith]Could you post what he told you? I'd be interested, as well...

So what Corey told me is there is several powders that works, but I only asked about these.

Min Max Velocity
RL25 60.0-63.1 2750'
H1000 62.0-65.2 2750'
Retumbo 65.0-68.4 2800'

COAL is 3.409" as any shorter and the ogive would be inside the case neck
And there test barrel was 26" long

I loaded up Retumbo as that is my favorite powder with the 180's now, but I have not shot them yet. I just need the wind to lay down this weekend. I'll report back how things turn out. Also I seated out to the lands, 3.526" and there is still plenty of room left in my mag box.

If I could get 2800 out of my 7mm RM, at 11,000 altitude the ballistics are pretty funny. May have to try a box. Think an 8.5 twist rock has a chance at spinning them enough?

That should work! Though I'd go 8" if given the chance..

LKEYES- thanks!

Might need to extend the throat in my 7-08



Slightly blurry, but a 195 Hybrid next to a 162AM...

Thoughts on the low end velocity to still get expansion? Picking up a box Saturday for giggles.

I talked with Berger directly on this. They said a 9 twist is fine. It says right on the box as well.

Please post your findings with the 7-08 I have a couple fast twisted 7's they would be fun in

No reason not to go 8.


See for yourself.






And 8 twist at sea level...

So got a box of these things today. In my rig they hit the lands at 3.56 OAL. With what I think will be max loads of Retumbo, I have a very full but not compressed case. Looking forward to shooting them hopefully next week and will post speeds for my 25" 7mm RM.

Definitely no reason not to go 8 or 8.5, except if you can't get one and the 9 twist is in your hand.

Hello Rick,

Thank you for contacting Berger Bullets. You should be okay with the use of the 1:9” twist barrel. Our tests have indicated that you can go as slow as a 1:9.3” to maintain marginal stability with this bullet and that is the reason for our confidence with this bullet for you. Please do not hesitate to get back with any of us with the Berger Tech. Team if we can be of further assistance.

Kind Regards,
Bob Blaine
Technical Specialist
Berger Bullets Technical Support Team
[email protected]

Quick update. The 8.5 twist Rock at 5200 foot altitude didn't seem to have trouble stabilizing the 195s at all. Velocity in a 7mm RM with 25" barrel ranged from 2800 to 2890 going up from 66 grains of Retumbo to 69 grains.

Did not see pressure signs but thinking 69 has to be getting pretty close to max. Will work on seating depth a bit to see if I can tighten groups up a bit more but happy to see the velocity where it was.

Well I won't argue with you there!

Kimber 7-08, 9" twist...







These should work!

Any idea of velocity with the 7mm-08? Anxious to get back out and shoot these again.

Yeah, that load was giving 2412fps in the Kimber. I could step on the gas a bit more and get 2500+fps out of it, but this was just an experiment to see what they'd do in the 9" twist barrel going fairly slow. That rifle will continue to be fed a steady diet of 162AM's...

Dug out this 195 from a gravel pit behind the log...



Dug this 162 out a week ago from a meat bull moose. Busted the onside humerus and was found under the offside hide. The second shot went through ribs and heart/lungs and exited. Slight quartering shots at 150ish yards. No reason not to stick with this bullet from the 7-08...

4 shots at 600, 3 of them in 7/8"





Went out yesterday to verify drops as far as the scope had travel. I had verified drops to 800 during development and Ballistic AE showed velocity at 2965 fps when entering all pertinent info.

Shot a group over the chrono. Average was 2965 with an SD of 3

Used that data to to make multiple impacts at 1580 yards in 13-15 mph cross wind. 2 mils

The 9 twist causes no degradation of BC whatsoever

Jordan, let's see what the 195 will do outta' your Montana 7 WSM.... And some details on what that new tube and Holland lug are going to be used for....

Tanner

Tanner,

Long time, no talk! Looks like Alaska was a fun adventure, yet again.

I've got 10 loaded up for the Montana 7WSM, and I'll take it out to see what's up as soon as I'm done sheep hunting for the season. I'm hoping to see 2800-2900fps. The new pipe will be going on another 7WSM build, this one will be on a 700 LA with PTG 1-piece bolt. I'm thinking 25" finish and something like a Greybull stock or a Mickey GS or Manners EH1 should balance it out nicely. It'll be throated for the 195, so I'm hoping for good things from that bullet.

Here's what my RAR 7-08 did with its 9.5" twist. BTW, these groups (from the Kimber and RAR) were shot while I was in moose camp at 2500 feet ASL in 40 deg temps. Ignore the top right 2 shots and bottom left 4 shots that were from a bud's rifle. You can see evidence of some pretty unstable bullets...

Rick,

Glad they are shooting so nicely for you!

Are you using the published G7 BC from Berger? I'm thinking either you're high enough and in thin enough air that the 9" twist isn't causing your SG's to come below 1.5, or else you're getting published BC's even with an SG of under 1.5, and you'd get even slightly better BC values with a faster twist. Interesting...

Yep. Just took the BC figure right from the box since AE hasn't updated with Litz's figures. Took a length measurement with calipers for the Spin Drift calculations.

I'm at 5000 ft of altitude and I'm sure that helps. Even though, Berger states right on the box that their testing showed the bullet will remain stable with a twist rate as slow as 9.3 and I'm sure that means at sea level.

The 7mm-'08 probably can't shoot it fast enough to stabilize.

Just noticed something interesting- on the box in the OP's picture, the minimum twist rate specified is 9.2" or faster, if you look at the box further down in my pic, the minimum twist spec'd is 9" or faster. Got a pic of the top of one of your boxes? Sounds like they changed the minimum recommended twist at some point. Which batch did you get in on, the first lot, or the second?

I do most of my target shooting at 4000-5300 ft ASL, but in this case I was at moose camp at 2500. Interesting that with the exact same 7-08 load the RAR was keyholing and the Kimber was punching nice clean, round holes and grouping nicely (for a factory tube on a 6lbs scoped rifle). Seems like the 9" twist on the Kimber was sufficient to maintain stability, but the 9.5" twist on the RAR wasn't.

Mine says 9 or faster. Realize that just because your barrel is supposed to be a certain twist doesn't mean that it is that twist rate exactly. Do the cleaning rod test and measure accurately

If you reread the email straight from Berger that I posted, it states that they have tested the 195 in barrels as slow as 1-9.3" and the bullet maintained stability

What a beast!


Rick curious what is the velocity of that load at 1500 yards?

Probably 2k....grin....

That seems pretty impressive!

Not Rick, but my avg hunting elevation is 10,000 feet. That bullet started at 2900 is still doing 1750 at 1500 yards. At 1000 yards it has 2100 fps and 1900 foot pounds of energy.

Confirming a barrel's actual twist rate is a given before a bullet ever passes down the bore, but Berger's numbers are based on actual twist rates.

In the email it says that you can go as slow as 9.3" to maintain MARGINAL stability. According to Bryan Litz, a bullet in the marginal stability range with an SG between 1.0 and 1.5 will lose about 3% of its BC value for every 0.1 SG under 1.5. Maximum BC is realized for anything over 1.5. Hence the reason for my wondering if you'd see higher than advertised BC values if you had a faster twist rate, if you are indeed under 1.5 in SG, of course...

Another thing- What is the actual OAL of your bullets? Mine measure 1.627" on average, which is shorter than advertised. That'll help with stability, as well...

Using the stability calculator, it looks like you may be at an SG of around 1.53 in 40 degree weather at your altitude, assuming you have a true 9" twist, using the OAL of my bullets. If so, you'd be barely reaching the full BC of the bullet, which jives with your observations. Just don't take the rifle down to sea level in the middle of winter

1600 fps with 1100 ft-lbs of energy at 1580

It may kill something

I put 1.626" into Ballistic.

I ran the numbers as well on the Berger twist calculator. At 4000 feet the BC drops by 1% in a 9 twist.

30338/Rick: Thanks. Seems like a lot of velocity at those distances.

No keyholing at 4500 feet ASL, 60 deg F, using a light starting load from a 7WSM and 9.5" twist. MV is 2704fps average.

First round hit on a 6x10" target at 713 meters. The bullet seems to fly just fine from the Montana 7WSM.

Got around to shooting some 195's today.wind wasnt being kind but i'm pleased so far.
load on the fly


Did some powder charge work at 600..Chosen load vertical at 500 seems acceptable.



Shot said load at 100. the way the wind was blowing i'll take it for now.had some windage on the scope that I forgot about..



I think i'll have a keeper with some depth tweaks. This was out of my 7wby 9 twist.IMR 7977 for a 2835 average. I'm happy with that out of my 24" tube.

Hard to argue with that. With this high of BC, I can't see chasing the last few feet per second.

I went 1.5gr above the charge I settled on,going into it I figured if i could get 2800 i'd be happy.

based on prior experience with Retumbo, I can no doubt get more speed burning it..I'll try some out later..Need to nail seating down and get dope so I can kill some chit on saturday . Hope to test them out on a deer..Maybe an elk

Nice results. You really should have had that range done before I left Utah...

I've got a 28" 9 twist Kreiger on my long range rifle. 7 mag. I've got about 1K rounds of Berger 180 gr hunting VLD's through it. They've been doing a fine job on Marmots out to the 1400 yard mark, but have been looking at the big .338's for higher BC bullets.
With the introduction of the 195's I'm planning on just going to a bigger 7mm case instead. Still have about 600 180's left, so will be looking at another barrel after that.
This gun was built specifically for long range marmots and most of my hunting is at 12000'.
Will look forward to seeing everyone's results with this bullet. You guys will provide research for me. Thanks in advance.

Nice shooting there. That bullet is a monster.

so that's what they mean by "one ragged hole" !
awesome group !

almost got my 7 going, waiting on some neck turning stuff
hoping to see similar results soon

Got to shoot one of these bad boys out of my 24" 28 nosler .010 thou off coal 3.723 with 86grs of r33 and it cruised over my magneto speed at 3132fps. I'm at around 150 above sea level and it was 70 degrees today. I will throttle it down to 3100fps and shoot a group. Going to dysney next week so it will be a couple weeks. Here's a few pics of gun and loaded 195 berger and 175 ablr.

I've got a GAP Non-Typical 7mm WSM for sale that would love these.

Kimber Montana 7WSM 9.5" twist
64.5gr IMR7828ssc (slow lot)
2801 fps average at 41*F, 25.07 InHg

The 195 Bergers held up really well at 3300 fps from 8 twist barrels so far but now it's time to see if they are up to the task of staying together at 3500 fps out of a 30" 7 twist barrel ..... ]photobucket[/url]

Just returned from a great deer hunt. Held out for a big buck until the last day, then shot a meat buck, a big bodied 9pt mulie with the 195 at 2970 fps out of the Mashburn. Only 200 yards. Shot behind the shoulder. Double lung

He hunched, teetered for a bit, fell and tried to get up but was done.

Hide showed no sign of entrance or exit and I assumed classic Berger performance. Didn't do an autopsy as I process gutless. Entrance was the size of a nickel on the left side of the rib cage and a visible hole on the exit side was the size of a quarter.





My buddy held out as well. Killed a nice buck with the 168 LR Accubond out of a 7 Mag, seated on sticks at 380 yards the last hour of light. Through the shoulders and it made a bloodshot mess out of them.

Got a chance to shoot 3 195's out of my 28 going 3100fps .010 off at 300yrds. Temps were 50 degrees at sea level. 3 went into a 1 5/8" group. I will shoot a group down at 0 degrees because my fear is the 9 twist will lose stabilty. We will see. Where are you guys setting these bad boys off the lands?

Sounds like where you have them is pretty fuggin' good!

I loaded some this week. In the rifle I was loading for, they have to be loaded so deep that they get beyond the bearing surface in the case neck. Accuracy was poor at that much jump. Decided to stick with the 180s for now. I think they might be good for a 7 WSM with a 8.5 twist.

I'm jumping them over .100"

Nice shooting rick and congrats on your buck

I think I was jumping them .25

Huh?

.025" sounds right but 1/4"???

Yes, a LONG jump... Maybe not quite that much but at least .2

Tell me more about the 7mm Slayer...

Here's a new toy I put together specifically for this bullet. Rob McLeod installed the barrel for me, and did a great job.

Trued Rem 700 L/A with raceways machined for oversized PTG bolt
Holland HD recoil lug
PTG 1-piece spiral fluted bolt w/Sako extractor
(Soon to be) Gretan fluted steel FP assy
XLR Chassis
Magpul CTR buttstock
Krieger SS #4.5, 8" twist 4-groove barrel at 26"
AICS .338 Lapua 5-shot mag
Timney trigger
EGW HD 20MOA rail, Burris Sig Zee High rings
SWFA SS 10x42 MQ




First group of 4 shots after bore sighting and finding pressure ran right around 0.8 MOA. Got a few loaded up to dial in seating depth, and we'll be there.






Cherry popped on this last-day buck...

Rattled in to 100 yards, broadside shot, through both shoulders, 195 Berger Hybrid at MV of 2850 fps, ran 40 yards and collapsed. Not a single drop of blood. Bullet left the signature Berger pinhole entrance, penetrated both shoulders, destroyed lungs, bounced off offside hide and was found in offside shoulder. Will weigh remaining bullet weight in the morning after I clean it up.





And some empirical data for those interested...

What is your load?

I'm wondering which load it is also? 65gr or 67gr? Did you retest yet Jordan?

That initial group was shot with 64.5gr and a kiss, as an arbitrary starting point. Going to test seating depth over 65gr as soon as the Gretan pin assy arrives. Starting jammed 0.015" and going deeper in 0.025" increments to see what's up. Started to get some pressure signs at 67, so I'll be happy with 65.

Cool rifle Jordan and congrats on the buck.

Do you have a picture of the recovered bullet? I'm surprised that it didn't exit at that impact velocity.

Jason

It's a lot of bullet for a whitey to eat, for sure!

Just to let you know, you shot a short range AUDETTE, used a load in the node, and then continued to ROCK.


You abandoned the midget dickhead method


Whether you'll admit it or not....


LOL

Rick,

Yes, I realize

I try not to be biased, and gun an open mind, so thought I'd rock a ladder on this one. It'll get me to the same place. Whatever works- hits speak louder than words.

Though you could also say I "kissed, found pressure, and rocked on"

Thanks for the pics Jordan. Surprising how much jacket is left. That sucker is wide!