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Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
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If a cartridge / bullet combination fails to penetrate deeply enough from any angle needed to hit the vitails then it failed. If the bullet reaches the heart and the advasary continues on, instead of instant incapacitation that is simply the difference from one to another and no fault of the cartridge load combination, because it did the damage. This applies to rifle, shotgun and handgun.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Oct 2002
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
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So a Keith SWC in the heart trumps a WFN in the guts?
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,150 |
I believe he mentioned vitals...though he spelled it "vitails." The guts are vital, but are not normally associated with the "vitals" hunters normally shoot for...or adversaries either.
"It's a source of great pride, that when I google my name, I find book titles and not mug shots." Daniel C. Chamberlain
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Joined: Dec 2002
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Dec 2002
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Because of it variable nature, the heart is unpredictable. If full of blood, it may virtually explode when hit by a bullet, while if empty of blood, the only damage showing can be a hole the diameter of the bullet as it passes through the muscle tissue. If you hit the heart, all parties have done their job.
I would agree that a bullet that fails to penetrate to the vitals has failed, my sad experience with the Sierra BTHP 85 grain .243" and 90 grain .257" bullets would confirm that. In some circumstances, when shooting a trophy grade non-dangerous game animal, any shot is better than no shot, even if the shot is unlikely to kill, only wound and slow the animal so that the hunter can make a follow up killing shot. I'll leave the question of ethics for others to answer, but few hunters are going to pass on a great trophy, even if the shot opportunity presented is marginal.
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
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I believe he mentioned vitals...though he spelled it "vitails." The guts are vital, but are not normally associated with the "vitals" hunters normally shoot for...or adversaries either. I believe it was a JOKE from a previous thread.
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2008
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If a cartridge / bullet combination fails to penetrate deeply enough from any angle needed to hit the vitails then it failed. If the bullet reaches the heart and the advasary continues on, instead of instant incapacitation that is simply the difference from one to another and no fault of the cartridge load combination, because it did the damage. This applies to rifle, shotgun and handgun.
I basically agree. But 'more than enough' gun, applied well and liberally, tends to make this a rare occurrence.
Direct Impingement is the Fart Joke of military rifle operating systems. ⓒ
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,856 Likes: 11 |
In some circumstances, when shooting a trophy grade non-dangerous game animal, any shot is better than no shot, even if the shot is unlikely to kill, only wound and slow the animal so that the hunter can make a follow up killing shot. I'll leave the question of ethics for others to answer, but few hunters are going to pass on a great trophy, even if the shot opportunity presented is marginal. Just for clarification a gut shot or lower leg is an acceptable shot for a trophy animal? How about a non trophy, non dangerous game animal? Should I wait for a good solid kill zone shot or do the same rules apply? I anxiously await your answer. (we really need a sarcasm smiley)
Chronographs, bore scopes and pattern boards have broke a lot of hearts.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 67,830 Likes: 13 |
I really think he was talking about taking a less than optimal shot, not a silly shot to the leg. I think that he merits the benefit of the doubt there.
Sam......
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 12,664 |
If a cartridge / bullet combination fails to penetrate deeply enough from any angle needed to hit the vitails then it failed. If the bullet reaches the heart and the advasary continues on, instead of instant incapacitation that is simply the difference from one to another and no fault of the cartridge load combination, because it did the damage. This applies to rifle, shotgun and handgun.
Works for me.
The Karma bus always has an empty seat when it comes around.- High Brass
There's battle lines being drawn Nobody's right if everybody's wrong
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Joined: Dec 2002
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Dec 2002
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While I would take a sub-optimal shot at a trophy animal, but not on a non-trophy animal, you're free to do whatever you want to do.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 1,378 |
Not many cartridge/bullet combinations work well for the "Texas Heart Shot" and if that is an option then you the hunter needs more gun. Keith always advocated gun/cartridge/bullet combinations that would get the job done from any angle.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2003
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While I would take a sub-optimal shot at a trophy animal, but not on a non-trophy animal, you're free to do whatever you want to do. Thank you for the clarification. It speaks volumes.
Chronographs, bore scopes and pattern boards have broke a lot of hearts.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
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While I would take a sub-optimal shot at a trophy animal, but not on a non-trophy animal, you're free to do whatever you want to do. Thank you for the clarification. It speaks volumes. If the cartridge/ bullet, load combination can reach the vitals from the angle chosen or break down and anchor the advasary then the shot is not sub-optimal.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Dec 2002
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 32,252 Likes: 3 |
While I would take a sub-optimal shot at a trophy animal, but not on a non-trophy animal, you're free to do whatever you want to do. Thank you for the clarification. It speaks volumes. All living creatures eventually die and do the circle of life thing, some die naturally, some not so naturally. While I prefer to wait for an optimal shot to present itself and make a clean, one shot, kill, trophies worthy of being mounted are few and far between, so exceptions to policy must be considered. Or so it seems to me.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 5,856 Likes: 11 |
Thank you for the further clarification. As I said, it speaks volumes.
Chronographs, bore scopes and pattern boards have broke a lot of hearts.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2012
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While I would take a sub-optimal shot at a trophy animal, but not on a non-trophy animal, you're free to do whatever you want to do. Thank you for the clarification. It speaks volumes. All living creatures eventually die and do the circle of life thing, some die naturally, some not so naturally. While I prefer to wait for an optimal shot to present itself and make a clean, one shot, kill, trophies worthy of being mounted are few and far between, so exceptions to policy must be considered. Or so it seems to me. Wow, what a fugging douchebag . I'm glad a dick measuring contests mean more to you than ethics
Last edited by gitem_12; 08/29/15.
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
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Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
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This thread is about what constitutes a cartridge, bullet load combination failure. Not about any ethics, shot you will or will not take hunting. This thread about self defense and hunting bullet, cartridge load combination failures and nothing else.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Dec 2002
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Ethics are relative. Besides you're not hunting with me, so why do you care?
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Now I know how all those rotten dead bucks I find in my woods got there.
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