Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Competitive Shooting CMP to allow optics on Service Rifles

Whilst not formalized yet, it appears that CMP will allow optics in Sporting rifle 4.5x32 max.

http://thecmp.org/2016-cmp-rifle-and-pistol-rule-changes/

March scopes are working on a CMP legal scope.

That will be nice for folks with vision issues for sure!

It's about time they did this. The military has only been using scopes on M16s and M4s for about 20 years. Hopefully the NRA will follow suit with match rifles.

Personally I wonder if putting a scope on an AR15, high enough to clear the iron sights, might make it difficult to get a good cheek position.

The rule change that I like is the one that eliminates alibi strings in rapid fire for equipment malfunctions. I've never had an alibi (except for pit service etc.) and this will encourage shooters to keep their stuff in good condition.

I'd imagine a FX-2 4x32 with turrets would be all you'd need, or am I missing something? Would the extra .5x matter?

I'd want parallax adjustment, target turrets and a zero stop.

Didn't even think of those things .... but to me either the front post dances around the black dot or the cross hairs will do it

A lot of suggestions from the top shooters have been passed along to Shiraz Bilolia, North and South American distributor for March scopes. His company is Bullets.com or Grizzly. Shiraz is a prominent FClass shooter also. Shiraz is working with March on this.

Butch, if you are talking to them, tell them a fixed power scope is fine. No need for adj magnification at such low powers.

The reason for a scope sight in CMP matches is NOT magnification (unless you want to read mirage, in which case you would need about 20X).

The reason is putting the front sight and the target in the same focal plane. Magnification is basically unimportant.

It will be a fixed power and he is visiting with some of the top shooters about this. You need to get it right the first time.
The great thing about the March, other than the ED quality glass, is the absolute tracking on windage and elevation. Not like 99% of the other brands.

The rules are made by old guys.

The rules have been evolving in CMP and High Power to keep old guys more competitive against young guys. Who'd a thunk it.

No, I think the rules are just moving with the reality of technology.

Don't "complain" that CMP rules are making old farts more competitive, complain (if you must) that technology is making everyone more competitive. I'm sure there were people that complained that the M14 made life too easy on left handers.

There are a lot more old guys, so it stands to reason.

That and it seems to open the door to get a lot more folks in the door as (IMHO) now many folks are equipped to play. Guys/gals can bring out their M-4-ish and play. May not be competative, but will welcome more folks to try and if they like what they're doing they may take the plunge. Much more so with these rule changes than before them, as there aren't nearly the number of guys with A2 configured rifles.

The downside is those that have to keep up with the rules to be competitive, its going to cost money. 20K rounds of 223 a year cost us money to start with...

This would cost us more.

I really wished in one way, that there would remain an irons only division... but I"m old....

It seems the NRA is keeping service rifle irons only (there is a "tactical rifle where optics are welcome).

I think the comment time has expired, next up should be approval or disapproval.

Guess I didn't read well enough, must be NRA match rifle rules change possibly then.

Actually it would make more sense to use it as service rifle rules rather than match, due to whats being used in the field, but I digress.

The rule change is for CMP (leg matches only). NRA would not change. But there is an optics class or tactical class for NRA matches now. CMP would be limited to 4.5 x. Don't think there is a power limit for NRA

well if its for leg only, thats weird, cause CMP hosts a myriad of other matches.

And if for leg, one would be forced to buy and shoot optics because you always take every advantage you can, such that its ability vs ability and not ability vs equipment.

I don't know, Jeff. Do you think the youngsters are really at any disadvantage shooting irons? I've seen too many people win any sight prone matches with irons. But that's not XTC.

My suspicion is that scopes will just keep old men shooting longer.

I proud I quit when I did!

Offhand with a scope should be exciting watching the cross hairs dance around.

Nah, it'll be fine, if you are a competition shooter you are long past dealing wiht seeing wobble..

You'll see it better with the scope obviously, but it won't affect the mental game and likley would make it stronger actually.

iron sights are too hard.
too much to remember.
of course, make it easier!
good luck if a battery dies. you die.
lol.

Lots of old phart comments.... I'm one of them. LOL.

I always wonder if the it should never ever change guys still ride horses...to work...

And in the end, its still going to be a level playing field and while the scores may go up or change, it'll still be me against you...

All scopes do is make it more competitive, i.e. harder to win.

If a battery dies?? Are the rifles battery powered?

Makes the scores higher, but not harder to win IMHO, the percentage differences on shooters with same equipment will typically always be the same. As it should be, its about the shooters skill, not the choice of gun/sights.

My club runs a smallbore 50 yard prone match. Scopes are allowed. Few shooters choose to try optics a second time after being beat by some old timer shooting irons and shooting 395/400 outside.

Mostly thats because of the results, and the non ability to see and accept all the movement... if many stuck with it, they might change that theory.

But then I don't shoot smallbore very much so there may be other things at play....

I have been shooting a scope off and on in midrange and long range for a few years., around 20x depending on mirage. For me the scope does improve my scores a bit esp. late in the day when my old eyes are tired.
Wish more scopes were available with a simple 1/4 min dot
SWFA has the perfect CMP scope with their 1x4... if you could adjust for parallax

The DCRA briefly toyed with the concept of allowing 4X scope on target rifles but I don't think there was enough response to keep the rule in effect. Personally, I was all for it. I can buy and mount a lot of four power scopes for the price of a good set of irons with diopter.
The advantages of optical sights go beyond just being able to see the target. The large field of view reduces the chance of a crossfire. Positioning of the eye remains the same at all ranges.
I felt that a Leupold or Weaver hunter class scope, knocked back to four power and with a two minute dot, would have made the perfect TR scope but the door was closed. To me, the option to use a low-powered scope just makes sense. Properly promoted, such a change might even attract new competitors. GD

What happens if you get a rainshower in the middle of the course of fire compared to peep sights filling up with water? BTDT

Since there are so many m4's in service folks hands have optics when they are deployed it seems only obvious that a discipline called "Service Rifle:" would allow optics.

The other issue may be to get new/different blood involved in the shooting sports. Maybe we can get the average age on the line in a comp under 60 years.

Puff of air if needed and the correct long billed cap that Carolyn and I used for years and years on the course solved any rain vs irons issue.

Makes sense considering current military rifle training.

I see The USMC trains recruits now with the ACOG, on a flat top with a floated barrel (M16A4???). Don't know how long that has been happening.

Just FYI for some, the ACOG doesn't use any batteries, it uses fiber optic and/or tritium for reticle illumination. Also it is mounted on a flat-top receiver, putting height above bore pretty much the same as irons.

I have built an accurate AR for CMP optics..thinking it would get me back in the SR game...I am telling you a 4x scope is not a game changer for 64 YO eyes

Out to 600 next week and will report. The 1x4s on the market don't have a reticule built for black on black targets

The rules don't disallow an illuminated reticle? Do they?

I'm just thinking out loud... you could make a big fat iron sight shoot well at 600.... 4x no matter the crosshair you should be able to figure it out. I suspect that 4x the cross hair isn't bigger than the black? I could be wrong.

OK, My Texas shooting friends took delivery of their 4.5X March SR scopes. 4 of them are in their hands. Weather has prevented them from shooting the scopes at this time. Hopefully this weekend and the report will be on the NM forum.
They will be available from bullets.com. A big thanks to Shiraz for leading the effort and putting the funds up to make this happen.

Email I received yesterday.

Shiraz,

The scopes came in and here is the initial impression from Keith,

"Super clear and I can focus it on a wall 15 feet away. Numbers on the windage knob is awesome with the R and L. 13 minutes of wind in for half a rev so you probably won't ever go past where it'd be showing the wrong letter."

The dot appears to be smallish on initial look while in the house, but here is the extension of the text message.

"Maybe it'll look better on a target. Also, if the red dot can be seen during the day having it small will be a plus."

It is raining in CenTex and could last a few more days, but by the weekend 3 scopes will be mounted and mine on Tuesday (arriving in TX on Monday night) definitely will have range impression by mid week.

Butch,

Thank you for initiating the discussion.

Thank you.

The dot is illuminated and adjustable.

Keith, as in Stephens?

Yes Sir.

If Keith is impressed, I need hear no more.

Any idea as to $$$?

Someone posted 2500. March ain't going to be cheap. Ain't going to be bad either.

They show $2338 on their website. They offer a 20% discount to Mil/and first responders.

https://tools.usps.com/go/TrackConf...&tLabels=9534+6113+2702+6071+0959+64

It is liosted close to the bottom.

Thats not bad for a March scope.

Didn't see it .... why the usps tracking link?

Probably a note to one of my customers. Let's try this.

http://www.bullets.com/products/1-4-5-x-24mm-Tactical-Knob-Illuminated-MTR-D2/MAR1071

Thanks ... did see that. I was looking for a fixed 4x with AO. Since it ain't there, is probably why I didn't see it.

Best,
g

Just read the NRA Service Rifle rules, apparently they are the same as CMP (regarding optics). Do they compete head-to-head as they do in CMP??

Next....all 600 yard shooting will be done away with and the entire course will be fired from 100 yards!

Bunch of PUZZIES!!

Next will be doing away with The President's Match and the Distinguished Rifleman's badge because we don't want to make anyone feel 'inferior'!!

Damn bunch of kids don't even know what they've missed!!

nope, it'll only make the cut scores higher.

You, the man that flies planes, complaining about progress. LOL.

There's NO SUBSTITUE for KNOWING how to shoot iron sights! You know it....and I know it! Going to optics is some areas is highly reasonable but in the finality it's not a good thing for combat troops IMO...and I'll stick to this thinking no matter who says what! What it does mean is more $$$$$ expenditure and business for the folks making the optics! They love it! And in this country all that counts is $$$$$$....not efficiency!!

I don't know of any of our troops shooting irons on their M16s any more in combat.

There is no sub for learning irons is correct, IMHO. Makes optics that much easier to shoot.

That said, if optics help the troops out, and keep em safe, I'm all for it.

While I know I could be very accurate with irons, I know I could be as accurate and likely more so in differing enviros and quicker with optics...

When the shooter is in the light and the target is in the shade, there is no substitute for a scope.