Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Single Shots The best curve...

...is a learning curve, or so they say.

Last spring I started contemplating a threaded barrel for the Contender Carbine to be used for a very specific purpose, that being hogs at fairly close range.

I pondered...and pondered...got some good advice from a few sages here on the 'Fire and some technical help from a fellow with Quick Load software. The objective was fairly simple. MOA precision at subsonic velocity in a rimmed cartridge using cast bullets. The evolution went something like this:

The bullet objective: 180 gr 30:1 alloy, plain base round nose. With the help of Steve Brooks I wound up with this one.



The parent case is the .357 Mag. Dave Manson crafted the reamer and the sketch that went along with it set the wheels in motion for the dies.



Bullberry did the barrel and I wound up with this:



More on the next post

After all the parts and pieces arrived I set about confirming specs and am pleased to report it is all spot on, down to the .0005" yardstick. My fingers are too fat to fiddle with smaller stuff.

Anyway, went to the range today and was peppered with questions ranging from the sublime to the ridiculous. After that settled a bit I set up for the 50 yard line. I had 7 loads set with the same specs other than powder type (3) and charge. My first point of interest was to verify the bullets were stable in the 12" twist before screwing on the can. Second objective was to try and ferret out some insights for load development.

First came the Bullseye. I had no particular expectations for this load other than the thought that if it blew it wouldn't be terribly painful.



Recoil was mild to say the least, my estimate of velocity in the 650 fps range. Apparently my bore sight job on the scope was adequate? I did not touch the knobs throughout the day's effort.

Next up was a run with the WW540.



The first group with 540 was only slightly larger, perhaps .1". Maybe I'm on to something. You may notice the POI has trended downward? Me too. Scratching head over that.

Onward! Group 3 w/2400



Pulled the shot on the left, but I'm seeing a wee bit of potential in this and the WW540. Again the POI dropped, and in the case of the first load it dropped quite a bit. I found the threshold of stupid in any case.

Recoil was slightly more severe than a .22 LR, noise was lost in the din of the other shooter's guns. One fella was kinda spooked that it made no more noise that it did. Oh well...

Last bit of joy for the day was cleanup. The short version:



A very few fine particles of lead after 39 shots and 3 different powders. I'm OK with that. Next round will have a chronograph on deck and probably a bit more powder. No surprises with this in any regard and I'm pretty much a happy camper with the way it is turning out.

DD

Looking good BD!

neat project

Good stuff BD.

Pretty neat!

Keep the updates coming. Cool project.

Looking good. A tad more pressure/velocity to find the sweet spot is my guess also.

Unburned powder?

How did the fired cases look?
Leakage?
Before and after dimension changes?


The crono will tell a lot.





"Gesundheit"

Some unburned powder, see patch #1. 2400 was the worst.

More pressure is indicated.

Bullseye loads had gas leakage indications around the neck, otherwise no.

That's an interesting question. The cases fired with Bullseye measured an average of .0025" neck expansion and those with the WW540 & 2400 measured only .001" on average.

Aren't pressure curves a hoot?

Yes they are.
Eliminating any other factors, I guess the Bullseye spiked higher. My guess is early in the curve. The latest burn rate charts do not list WW540. I believe it is the same as HS6. Ball is going to act a little different than the other flakes as the loads get hotter. WW231 will act more like Bullseye, but Bullseye might be more predictable in that case form. Long narrow case with higher sectional density bullet than what WW231 is normally used for. Just thinking out loud.

I tend to agree. Other powders in the background, this is going to be an interesting journey.

Master Flake

Powders seem to be coming back on the shelves around here. But with sticker shock.

Like you said before the case is similar to the .30 Carbine. There is three notable differences. The carbine loads are @ 40k psi and a light 110gr compared to your 180gr. The go to powder for the carbine is H110 (WW296). These are magnum powders that like to live in an handgun environment of high pressures, heavy bullets and strong bullet pull.

The unburned flakes of the 2400 indicates a higher load is needed. This might exceed your velocity wishes. Only testing will give insight on this. 2400 is a forgiving magnum powder. Unlike H110 (296). They are definitely not recommended for reduced loads. It is all over loading literature for H110 (296). Some people like Blue Dot. I stay away from that powder except in heavy shotgun loads. It has proven unpredictable in long powder column loads. Even Alliant says that.

I said this before, out of the box thinking would include Trail Boss, AA Nitro 100 and AA5744. Don't forget some of the "shotgun powders" also.

At any rate you are going to have fun with this project. I envy you.

Have an idiot's delight of varieties to play with and some will shine, some not so much.

Short list beyond the 1st three that have potential.

Clays
Blue Dot
Red Dot
4227
4759
RX7
Li'l Gun
4198 and more

Speed meter will be the guiding light.

I'm betting the 4759 might prove itself in that case/bullet combo.

As an aside, that Brooks bullet Dan shows is a heckuva good design. He sent me 100 of them a while back and so far I have shot away half of them in my put-together M1903A1 Springfield with a long gentle throat that matches the bullet very well. (New Criterion barrel + vintage C-stock and late nickel steel receiver, National Match rear sight.) Mild charges of 2400 and 4759 (15 grains) turned in groups off the bench that hover in the MOA neighborhood. I'm saving the rest for when I finish mounting an old Fecker target scope on it as a Marine sniper clone. If they continue their pleasant shooting trend I'll be camping on Dan's doorstep for more, or better yet applying to have a mold of my own cut.

I'm not sure exactly what velocity you're looking for, but I would think that you want it to be just shy of supersonic which puts it somewhere in the 1000 fps range.

There's lots of powders to choose from to do that, but to get consistent burn/pressure/velocity, I think you can eliminate anything slower than Blue Dot.

AA#5 might be worth a try.

Glad they are working out for you...me too apparently? It will be probably after New Years before I make any more of them, but I don't have a problem shipping some more when I get there. Let me know.

Thinking that 4759 may be the wild card that fills the straight flush with this project, will get into that soon enough.

Velocity in the 800-1000 range will work, but precision will be the determining factor in where it winds up. I suspect but do not know at present it's running in the 650 range with the WW540, maybe a bit slower with the 2400.

I bet if you put it on a chronograph at that speed with 2400, you'll find that velocities are all over the place.

I really like 2400,....it's one of my favorite propellants, but it's made to *pop*,...as is any propellant Blue Dot or slower.

I'll admit,...it's kind of a funny cartridge,.. but even so you're talking about low pressures.

I'm guessing that the most consistency you're going to find with it at the velocities you're looking for will be in the medium/fast handgun propellants.

Basically, it's a slightly skinny, heavy .38 spl.+p.

I'm still thinkin' that if you get slower than Blue Dot at the velocities/pressures you're looking for, you're going to get erratic ignition,...which is going to cause erratic pressures and velocities,...and consequently, erratic accuracy.

Propellants start getting very particular about pressure once you hit the Blue Dot burning rate.

Also,..I think you need to pick the velocity you want to work with before you try to pick the best propellant for it.

I doubt that the most consistent propellant at 700 fps is going to be the most consistent propellant at 1000 fps.

Just looking at Hodgdon Data on the 32-20 Winchester. 115gr cast LRNFP

The powders they list are:

Universal
WW231
HP-38
Trail Boss
Titegroup

Velocities from 642 to 915. Pressures from 11,100 to 16,000 CUP

I think using 180gr pill is doable with any of these.

Powders in this burn rate range is probably a good start.

Gibby, there's a whale of a lot I don't know about internal ballistics, but the question to me isn't so much whether or not it can be done, but if it can be done well. Entirely a guess on my part, but it is quite possible the loads above are indicators of where I need to be headed. 180 grains of lead (183.5 actually) is a fair bit up the SD scale from the referenced bullet. Transferring data across a wide gap like that may generate some surprises I don't want.

Another point of minor import is the alloy they used versus what I'm using. 30:1 is around BHN 9 which is just slightly harder than bullets found in .22 RF ammo. Their ref. MAP is around 26K PSI and that's a fairly good reference for the max I can use with this alloy.

OTOH, I will need a minimum pressure of about 13 KPSI to promote obturation, so somewhere in the upper middle to max will get me where I need to be for best performance of the alloy, and by extension, the bullet. To my eye that's one of two critical elements in finding the consistency I'm looking for. The second is load density. I imagine I'll find success with something in the 75% or higher range of that. Of course I could be full of crap and find something out in left field that works splendidly.

For all the "research" I've done there are still things to be learned. For example, it came to my attention this eve that WW540 has a lot slower burn rate than I'd been led to believe based on data from one source contradicted by several others. Stuff happens. It explains my findings from the range visit detailed above. In fact, of the 3 powders used to date, they almost perfectly illustrate the range of burn rates I'll be playing with, that being Bullseye to 2400. If I don't find nirvana there I'll step outside the box just a bit. One thing I'm not short of is a variety of powders to play with.

What needs to come next is to find out what velocity range I'm in, at least in my imagination that's it.

Bristoe, as far as picking a velocity, the range listed (800-1,000) is adequate for my purposes. One of the things I've learned about cans of late, is that the low transonic velocity range ups the noise footprint substantially with velocity increase and that bullet form has a lot to do with that. I will be subsonic when all is said and done, but the degree is an open question. I'll be preferring precision at 750 fps to larger groups at say, 950 fps. Is an ingrained preference picked up from popping pigs with CB shorts with the same frame pictured above. The "desire" is MOA @ 100 yards. The practical requirement is a pig brain sized group at 50, 100% of the time with enough snap to put it there, thru the bone structure with any reasonable aspect to the shot.

Yeah, it's an odd looking thing for sure. If you google around for the .30 Badger/.30 Reece you'll find something similar. Difference is primarily in neck length for my round which is near 1/2" and a case capacity intended to drive a particular bullet subsonic rather than a variety of bullets supersonic.

What led me to the .357 case was it's untapered form, SAAMI spec MP and rim which is quite amenable to the Contender. Believe me, I looked at a lot of alternatives. Some that were close runner ups were bypassed mostly due to a lack of brass or other aggravating circumstances.

I had some lengthy discussions with Dave Manson and Bullberry regarding the project and once they understood the parameters and platform they were thumbs up. In the balance of my life it will shoot that one bullet at subsonic velocities yet to be determined even though the range of velocity is fairly well defined. I do have experience with other guns w/cans (.22RF, .22 WMR, .357, .44 Mag, all rifles) and the variety of characteristics/baggage which shaped this project. It's doable, but will take a little time.



I agree with that. Question is, which is best and where?

I was using the 32-20 as an example because of case size and low pressure characteristics. Showing which powders are preferred at lower pressures and at the low pressures we are talking about. A jump of 60grs in bullet weight combined with the "relative" large capacity of your case with inserted bullet in the range of 2 to 5grs of powder I do not see a problem if you back your charge down a bit. Starting very conservative.You have enough experience with bullseye (using it's burn rate) and your chrono to get a feel of internals. I think you can get the obturation and keep it well under 26k psi. As far as loading density goes, the double base powders with higher percentages of nitro will be more forgiving. 5744 and Titgroup are great for low loading densities. As is a few others. 5744 has been proven to have nonexistent variations in burning relative to powder position.

In this case,lower powder charges (faster burning) is one thing I would lean towards. Velocity of the powder charge at the muzzle makes a difference in dB's also ya' know. Make use of the breech end of the barrel more. There is that pressure curve thing again. Food for thought.

One other thing. Winchester SP primers are known to be very hot. Might be better if you do not use them.

FWIW 1680 works well in the .300 Blackout, with heavy subsonic bullets.

Thanks for the clues boys, will be loading up another batch today and see where this takes me.

DD

What primers are you using? I have found certain powders in reduced loads to be very primer sensitive.

In addition to primer selection probably having an effect with a load like this, have you addressed flash hole uniformity and diameter also? I think getting a "soft" ignition through a uniform hole might make a bit of a difference.

Started this out with W-W SPP but have some CCI and Federal primers to try, including some match primers. Have the equivalent in SRP as well. Part of the process I reckon.

Flash holes are uniformed.

Next round will continue the exploration with WW540 and 2400, ramping up a few more tenths. Also going to try some 4227 and Lil' Gun for giggles.

Short list of what I have to play with from fastest burn rate to slowest:

Bullseye (done)
Red Dot (Saving for a state of desperation)
700X (ditto)
International Clays (ditto)
WW231 (ditto)
800X
WW540 (posted and incl. in next round)
WW571
Blue Dot
2400 (posted and incl. next round)
Lil' Gun (next round)
4759
4227 (next round)
4198
RX7

Each cycle will include at least 2 loads for each powder.

Will be working thru that list before considering the purchase of different varieties. One of the things that is a mystery to me and I imagine will influence the final recipe is quickness. That probably is too variable for inclusion into load data books, but I've long suspected it is probably more influential than burn rate. Given the capacity and QL info I have I suspect but do not know that those powders in the mid to lower burn rate portion of the list will be erratic at lower load densities but start to show promise as the loads increase.

I may be full of it, but my sense of affairs regarding "position sensitivity" is that it is more likely the result of variations in quickness due to the relationship between that metric and pressure. In other words, the pressure curve gets a bit twisted if the early phases of the ignition sequence are not consistent. Just a guess though.

Lil Gun was about the best powder that I tried for reduced loads in the 38 Special for late night indoor schützenfests.

CCI Small Rifle Magnum primers gave the best accuracy and seemed to burn the Lil Gun cleaner. This was with 148 grain wad-cutters. 2400 never worked for me in small doses.

To your point about position sensitivity - we tried holding revolvers up and down to keep the powder positioned the same between shots. Never could find the sweet spot on that.

Looks like you have a good list to start off with.
Position sensitivity is a hard one to predict. Deterrent coatings or no coatings. Size and shape of kernels. How they pack. Not only does these differences effect burn rate but how the pile is affected in space at time of ignition. Chemical makeup can be chosen. Some powder ignites easier than others. But I think this is a minor thing here. If it was major, all bullseye shooters would be using the same powder. My guess is that the momentum of that big long bullet will smooth out some of these reactions going on behind it.

The base of that bullet is going to be on fire anyway from those Win SP primers. Ha!

If that's a bullet's butt on fire, send matches!

Nice group for tracers.

Well, day 2 at the line and I come back to an epiphany. Moved some pics in the PB account and broke the links to images preceding this post and it is too late to edit. Sorry...

Again at the 50 yard line, this time with a chrono and a sweet 1/2 value wind from 4-5 o'clock at about 10-15. Phffft.

Anyway, the pics contain the powder, charge and statistical data. Some of it surprised insofar at the ES numbers, perhaps more so that they still managed to group after a fashion. Tried a couple more charges with WW540 and 2400, then some new with SR4759 and IMR4227. Live and learn?

I call this game CLUE.









Perhaps the funniest thing was the second group of 5 w/4227. The ES was 130 with the last shot dropping near 3" below the rest of what was actually a fair group...until then.

I expected the slower powders to be a little goofy, wasn't disappointed at all. Good news is there's still room in the case, the charges will be bumped in next iteration. Extraction was easy, the bore nasty after the WW540 and 2400. Impeccably clean after the first round with 4759. I mean spotless, save for a couple or three unburned kernels.

Other thing that was a bit tantalizing was that most of the groups were fairly tight save for a single outlying hit. Oddity of that was that the stray dog in the pack was mostly not the one round that skewed the ES numbers.

I think your getting somewhere. A little hotter on the slow burners. SR 4759 is about as vertical as you can get. I'd say they are pretty good considering the wind you had today.

Any other powders in the works?

AA5744 burn rate is right there with 4227 and SR 4759. But it likes extra space in the case. That is what it is designed for. Easy to ignite also.

This is word for word out of AA 2001 Reloaders Guide:

ZMP-5744 (AA5744) This short cut, extruded, double base rifle and pistol propellant is designed for use primarily in the Sharps Rifle Cartridges. It also works well in large capacity handgun cartridges of both conventional and IHMSA design. Shooters of cast bullets and reduced loads will find it useful in just about everything from 22 Hornet to the 50/140 Sharps.

NG* % 20.0%
Avg. Length .048
Avg. Grain Diameter. .033
Bulk Density ** .880 (Very low. ease of ignition and consistent velocity, regardless of powder position in the case.)
Comparative powders "Beyond Comparison"

* NG- Nitroglycerin (glyceryl trinitrate)
** glcc


It needs a heavy crimp or high SD of the bullets used.

Also, a high NG content reduces the effect of humidity and temperatures variances.

Shot two loads with each powder today, 40 rounds all said and done. All were .2 grains apart in charge and except for the WW540 the targets posted are the low loads for each. What I found interesting was the increase of average velocity between increments. Ran about 20-40 fps for each powder, less for the slow burners and more for the fast.

Wild guess on my part, but I'm thinking the WW540 is near the end of the trail for significant increase in velocity. I will bump it again, but I don't expect to see it go much higher. The other three will get quite a bit more charge before it's over. I expect to run up to around 7-9 grains for each before that's settled, perhaps more. My imagination suggests that ES will settle down to very low numbers once load density gets over the 80% barrier.

Others waiting in the wings: 800X, WW571 and Li'l Gun as first priority, the others will have to wait a spell. Interest in the LG stems from the very excellent performance I've had with it under soft lead alloys in the past.

Good news is that at the range I deal with pigs, any load fired to date will do just dandy.

I started using Lil'Gun back when it came out in the mid '90's. 1st for heavy magnums, but found out, just like you did that it works well reduced. Unlike some of the other slow burners like H110,296 and AA #9, which are dangerous to reduce.

Interesting is that Lil'gun was the powder used to develop the .17 HMR and CCI Velocitors. Good velocity at lower pressures. A little bit faster than your 4227 and SR4759.

I think you are in the correct burning rate range never the less.

LG rocks, no mistake about it.

'Nuther gun on another day. 77/44 with 300 grain pure paper patched, 1600 fps out the muzzle. Loaded with LG. 8 shots, loaded in 2002 and fired 2011. #9 whacked a deer up in MS a few days later.

"A-ten-SHUN". "No talking in the ranks".

I like it when it rains down there.

Those bullets are beu----t----Full



PS: Are you afraid to get your flag wet, or is that a spare?

My ducks are in parade formation and I clicked the shutter only a split second after they had saluted. Have to work that timing thing out...

D

So yesterday I spent a fair bit of time assembling loads for the next venture to the range. Went well, yadda, yadda...

Buddy calls up and asked if I wanted to drop by today and not make noise at his range amid the oaks and palmettos. Sure, why not.

I was not inclined to take the ammo just loaded, but did want to take a first run with the can just to get an idea what it sounded like. I kluged up 5 loads of 3 just for giggles with an old can of Dupont powder gifted by a friend several years ago. It had never been opened.

Long story short, Sneezer is the right name for the rig. Problem I have is that from all appearances it is going to be a very boring gun insofar as further load work.

First round, first group was a bit of a flyer opening the group to just a bit over 1-1/4". I let my buddy shoot the next group and he can't for the life of him shoot a group that doesn't have one flyer. Bug holes with an accent? I dunno.

What surprised me more than anything was the velocity jump I got with this powder, even with the small charges. Picked up 100-150 fps over the previous loads. The powder was one I'd never used or even seen in the past. Huge round flakes a bit smaller than a hockey puck...kind of amusing to me actually.

But I'll tell you this....800X rocks! It burns clean, makes for good numbers with light charges and all that other gak.

I hope this makes the Poobah jealous.





PS: I relaxed a little on the last group. Biggest spread of the five loads was the first...they kept getting smaller and smaller and...I'm not that good, but something is clicking here.

Kudos. I foresee porcine devastation. Send me a ham.

Those are bad ass BD.

That is about perfect BD. Another good plus is I see 800X on the shelf all the time.

I like boring. That is a good sign of a balanced cartridge design. Kind of like the triple deuce. Works great with a couple of dozen different powders.

Looking good, BD! 👍🏻👏🏻

Any chance you got yourself a smartass phone you could shoot a quick vid with to get us an idea of the decibel denigration?

Never played with 800X, but it makes sense,...just a little faster than Blue Dot.

I figured you might find something that worked well in the medium/fast handgun propellants.

It appears that I have, but at the same time I'm seeing some promise with a a couple other powders as well. I suspect that SR4759 will start to settle down and perform in the near term. Loads in the tray waiting for launch are running around 80% load density and I'm not close to the limit on that particular powder.

Mojo, I'll see what I can do about that, but I'm not sure the cell will render anything faithful on the sound. We'll see.

Cast in point: This is an 8 bore gun and I was about 10' from it when fired. The sound does not suggest it will shake your innards when it goes off. BUT...with and w/o the can might give a reference.

Dan

http://vidmg.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/Black%20Powder/IMG_2920_zpsjoluyrvf.mp4

Dan, you need to quit clearing and chopping wood and laying boulders and get down to business here. Chores can wait. You have our permission.





Gesundheit

To continue the saga, there have been several developments of note though I'm not certain I know what they mean. Perhaps a small data set skews the perception? I'll stick with that for the moment anyway.

Day 3.5 at the range with the chronograph and all information gleaned at the 50 yard butt, data presented in order of burn rate.

Bullseye has been ditched, something I anticipated. Of course I just HAD to try it.
Avg. Group with two samples was 2.25", no velocity info available.

800X is interesting. It burns so clean it is near stupid. Did you clean after shooting Dan? No, I shot a few rounds of Dupont 800X and the barrel is spotless. Groups have ranged from tiny to ridiculous, the latter no doubt the result of gently pulling the bullets on 5 cases to verify charge weight after an excursion with the Ohaus 505. Though there was no apparent deformation of the bullets in that process, the target said otherwise. 2.5" is no laughing matter, no sir.

The range of charges shot to date is from 4.0 to 4.4 grains. The first two increments averaged in the 920 fps range with ES values of 33 and 28 in order. Groups were fair. The next step of 4.2, 4.3 and 4.4 grains all fell in the 950 fps range with ES values of 13.2 to 15.2 with exception of today's effort which was a repeat of the 4.2 load for 10 shots. Average velocity was 949 with an ES of 9. One group of 5 was .95". What baffles me a bit is the significant increase of velocity between 4.1 and 4.2 grains, followed by an apparent plateau where it levels out. But then, I love a mystery...

WW540 has been a player since this started, contributing several groups suggesting promise for the future. Average groups for 5 strings of 5 are 1.29". Velocity increases have been consistent in a linear fashion averaging 10-15 fps increase for each .1 grain of charge increase. The first iteration had an average of 820 fps with ES of 30. The last was 4.8 grains which averaged 886 fps with ES of 15.

Took a spin with WW571 today, a single string of 5 shots. It grouped at 1.38", average velocity of 961 fps and ES of 39. I doubt it has much future in this undertaking.

2400 has been disappointing and after today will no longer be in the race. Velocities have been erratic to say the least, groups averaging 1.25". IMR4227 has given similar results though the ES values should be enshrined in the Ripley Museum.

Hodgdon Li'l Gun requires further investigation. A single 5 shot string today yielded a .68" group with average velocity of 977 fps and an ES of 28.

Lastly, IMR4759 has potential, though there are some curious results on the table. Group Average has been in the 1.25" range with minor flashes of brilliance. Velocity increases averaged 12 fps per .1 grain from 5.8-6.2 grains, then inexplicably jumped to 25 fps per tenth at the next increment of 6.4 grains. Average velocity at that level was 846 fps with ES of 19, the first time that value has been reasonable. Prior excursions have ranged to as high as 70 fps. It burns clean, when it burns, but leaves significant unburned quantity in the barrel. I am hopeful that at higher velocity/pressure that will abate.

This has been an interesting project to me and I'm not disappointed with any of the results. Truth is that any load put together to date and applied at the ranges I engage hogs at would be perfectly adequate in terms of velocity and precision. That said, I will continue to explore and find out what I can, cull the rats and then move to the 100 yard line.

There are several things on the table that may not be perfectly obvious to the average shooter and they ultimately carry a bit of weight on what the final load looks like.

-conventional lube really isn't an option, so I use a variation of the dry wax lube theory, mostly to avoid the joy of cleaning a lot of lube from the suppressor. Speaking of that, it had its first run a few days back and with 800X at around 950 fps, it sounds about like a suppressed .22 LR SV.

-unburned powder residue is not optional for use with the suppressor. Not long ago I had the pleasure (?) of hearing a secondary ignition in a suppressor as a result of accumulated unburned powder in the baffle stack. I don't know it hurts much on a now and again basis, nor do I know that it doesn't. It does sound a bit odd nonetheless.

-Without much forethought this project came together around the bullet. I think it's not a bad approach, even if atypical. Should I pursue something of this sort again, the bullet will be the first focus of my attention and all the rest built around that...again. Difference it that next time it will be done intentionally.

-With over 100 rounds fired to date I have not experienced the first trace of leading. The cases are easy to form. The common request when having hardware crafted to support such a project is for one to provide fired cases or a reamer sketch. Well, I get that, but would very much like to see a simpler path to modifying straight wall cases such as done with the Sneezer. The reamer sketch theory worked well enough here, no complaints at all, but my lay perspective is that there is a void in the world of dies. Why not a simple series of dies that allow for a selected shoulder angle and neck diameter reduction? It isn't rocket science.

-I may get to the original goal of 1050 fps, or not. Doesn't really matter that much. While I don't know what the minimum requirement for swine abuse is from a velocity perspective it is well established that 710 fps will drive a 29 grain CB Short bullet completely thru a hog's skull. I am well beyond that metric insofar as velocity, momentum and sectional density is concerned. One of the minor points of annoyance is that to date I have not been able to find a bullet in the soft sand common to berms at local ranges. I think my arm is long enough, but that has yet to be proven.

-I will take it to the point of achieving the goal of consistent sub MOA precision before I call it good.

That is all for now,

Dan

Sounds like your are going in the right direction. I think you have the science method down.

One thought.(you knew it was coming).
It has been well documented that going from one type of powder to another without swabbing the barrel sometimes, I mean sometimes, can result in modifying the true results of the test on the second powder. Especially if said first powder is not fully burnt.

Well, I'm a crusty ol' swabber from a long time back. Even use a blow tube for BP.

The range of charges shot to date is from 4.0 to 4.4 grains. The first two increments averaged in the 920 fps range with ES values of 33 and 28 in order. Groups were fair. The next step of 4.2, 4.3 and 4.4 grains all fell in the 950 fps range with ES values of 13.2 to 15.2 with exception of today's effort which was a repeat of the 4.2 load for 10 shots. Average velocity was 949 with an ES of 9. One group of 5 was .95". What baffles me a bit is the significant increase of velocity between 4.1 and 4.2 grains, followed by an apparent plateau where it levels out. But then, I love a mystery...

I think I mentioned earlier about 800X being unpredictable sometimes.

Yes, but it isn't just 800X doing such oddities. 4759 did something similar. Go figure.

When this started I worked the faster powders first and filtered the more moderate burn rates as it progressed. Most of what I've seen in performance was expected, but there have been a few excursions such as those above which puzzle me.

My expectations, for whatever it might be worth, I'll wind up settling on something in the slower burn/higher load density. If it gets down to it I've some Rx7 and 4198 to fiddle with.

Per mention above, the SR4759 is tantalizing, but it has to reach a point where the powder burn is far more complete. I have room for about 9 grains before I start compressing the charge.

Still on the curve,

D

Yea, at first I thought you wanted anything from about 850-1050 fps. But you want to settle somewhere around 1000 to subsonic with approx. 90% + load density with good combustion. There are just a handful of double base but a few single base that will probably reached those goals. There has been a few already mentioned in this thread.

Well, this epic adventure seems to be on course, meeting expectations while administering education aplenty.

Just finished day 4 at the range and an epic adventure it was. Short version is that I have a load, still looking at another possible load and am moving to the 100 yard butt next time around.

A long winded breakdown on what I've found to date, all distances at 50 yards, groups of 5 shots each:

Bullseye was a bust from the first round, delivering average groups of 1.88" for 2 loads.

WW540 served up a couple of sub 1" groups in the 800 fps range (4-4.2 gr) but began shooting patterns with stronger loads. Average group size for the range of groups 1.88", highest velocity was 886 fps avg. ES of 30 on average.

2400 averaged groups of 1.52" for the series, 4.5-6.1 gr in .2 increments. Best groups around 1.15" w/5.7 gr and 859 fps. Average ES was 44 fps.

IMR4227 was a bust. Average groups of 2.0" and ES avg of 68 over the range of 6-6.4 grains and highest velocity of 756 fps. I suspect it would do better with greater charges but I've plenty of functional options to keep me otherwise occupied.

SR4759 is a tease and the one powder I will work with some more aside from the Rock Star. It has presented groups in the 1.1" range in the last two loadings and with an average velocity of ~850 fps. ES numbers are horrid, averaging 50 over the series. Most recently the amount of unburned kernels observed in the bore have diminished greatly as the loads increase and the ES numbers are declining. The last load was the first to fall into the 20s for ES, this with a load density of 70%. Charges have ranged from 5.8-6.8 gr in .2 increments.

WW571......sort of a fizzle. Did its best work with the first charge of 5.5 grains, and ES of 37 and velocity of 961 fps. Downhill from there it was.

Li'l Gun is the Rock Star of this parade. Though I only started working with it during the last two range sessions it has averaged .64" for three groups, ES of 26 and high average velocity of 1038 fps. Can't hardly not like that! Charges have ranged from 6-6.4 gr in .2 increments.

Dupont 800X looked to be the star of this show and in fact could still find use after I use up 10# or so of Li'l Gun. Average of 9 groups was 1.65". Average ES was superior at 21 and the burn was very clean, that being something of note when using a suppressor. Alas, it went a little haywire today and as it crashed thru the 1,000 fps barrier is leaded the bore badly and that is the second time it has done so. That said, .12" groupage at around 950 fps is nothing to sneeze at and it will be a fall back in times of need. Average of 3 groups with 4.2 gr was .95".

This is what 800X did to the bore at the 1000 fps threshold...and tossed in a 3" group for giggles.


And this is what happened to one of my pretty bullets when it collided with a wall of dirt.



Did I tell you I like Li'l Gun?

Yep. I think we talked about Lil'gun working well from low pressures (.22 Long Rifle like) to magnum pressures in the .500 S&W. Very versatile powder. Some will say it burns hot. But from my experience, that is only true when O2 is added like from a cylinder gap at moderate to higher pressures.

How dirty was the Lil'gun?



I will say it again. 800X will get tricky sometimes without warning. Watch out.

I can tell you know what you are doing.



Thought I would say that before the year ends.

LG burns fairly clean at the pressure level I'm at. If I can jack up the pressure on 4759 I expect it to be a very clean burn. Only thing that has burned cleaner that LG is 800X.

Neat project BD. Been fun to follow.

It has been interesting and educational. As a younger sort I imagined that only gun gurus were allowed to do this stuff. Finding that Loonies are allowed to participate has been some sport.

Much encountered was anticipated, yet much was a learning experience. As example, in days gone by I've read cautionary notes suggesting that as little as .1 grain can make a difference. I scoffed at that, being of the mind that more coal was almost always a good thing and getting there was the point, as quickly as possible preferred. However, when this began I did a cursory search of the 'Net and found no data for the Sneezer. Imagine that?

So with guard rails in place and eyes open I commenced exploration w/o a ballistics lab to assist. Admittedly my parameters were a bit off the beaten track. ANYONE can fill a bigger case with more powder and make a louder boom, propelling small and large projectiles of various forms and construction methods. Question that came to mind however was if that was necessary in my circumstances. Experience with the Contender and CB shorts said no, quite emphatically. On another level I discovered out in Cody, Wy some years back that a bullet of cast or swagged lead moving at a leisurely pace could be quite effective in hitting the X at long range. Caused a pause it did. Likewise, I found that soft lead, paper patched, was a beast one does not want to be on the receiver of...a hog and the 77/44 taught me that. Then a deer and even an armadillo. Chunks is chunks.

Besides, being contrarian is part of the aging process from where I sit. Questioning the norm is healthy in my opinion.

Picked up pieces, looked it all over and created this oddity for a specific purpose and so far I'm enjoying the process quite a bit. The reamer is available if anyone wishes to join me. I will cast a hex upon thee if one loads jacketed bullets or tries to go supersonic. There are better alternatives for that.

Anyway, on to the 100 yard butt next time out, I gots to go do some case prep.

To preclude possible misconceptions, the Rigby is not for sale.

Hedging my bets in the swamps,

Dan

A re-barreled .357 Magnum 1894 Win would be interesting. 24" Barrel. Bolt face and action already there. How loud is your loads without the can? A can on a lever would be worse than putting a scope on one.

A sneezer repeater?

Don't recall if Winchester ever chambered .357 in the 94, but Marlin did so. Can on a lever gun? Needing some bleach for the imagination.

Don't jabber about aperture sights much but use them quite a bit. They work fine on lever guns and don't give up any meaningful degree of precision to scopes. Here and there I've posted a 10 shot group from a Marlin 94 that was 1.2" @ 50 yds. I'd think the Sneezer would be comfy with a lever action. .25-20 Winchester in a Marlin 94>>>is that sacrilege?



Most of the work to date was w/o muffler and in the 700-800 fps range I don't think it loud. It picks up a bit at 900-1000 fps , but isn't that bad

Yea, Marlin will work I believe. I think the sneezer is to long for the Win '92. Might work in a '73. I 'd have to check. But having the bolt face already cut to .357 has it's advantages of course.

I use aperture/receiver sights on a lot of my guns. From pellet to .348 Win. Fast sighting they are.

Come to think of it. Would rather molest a Marlin (even a JM) than a Winchester. I think the follower would work. Your bullet profile should work in a tubular magazine also.

800 fps for a 183 gr. bullet would be a killer, don't you think?

Indeed, a fact well established over the years. Why even a 29 grain spit of lead at lower velocity has been known to whack a hog now and again.



FWIW, I'm loading these at 1.875" COAL which is .005" short of kissing the lands. That geometry puts the bullet base at the neck/shoulder junction. Listed C.O.A.L. for a small variety of cartridges used in leverguns per SAAMI spec:
.357 - 1.590"
.32-20 - 1.592"
.44-40 - 1.592"
.44 Special - 1.615"

Can seat the Sneezer bullets another .020" or so before it gets weird, so call it 1.855" +/- w/o doing any case mod. Then again, there's a lot of neck that can be trimmed there. Near a 1/2". There's another case out there that's maybe more practical for the leverguns and is called the .30 Badger, based on the .38 Spc. case. Second from the right:



Might give an idea which levergun could choke 'em down?

I'm thinking that the bulk of load experiments are concluded for the most part. Day 5 at the range today was another learning experience, not only for what happened, but what did not happen.

Was a clear coolish day by Florida standards. Light frost this morning and it had warmed to the mid 30s by the time I hit the line. Unusually calm of a change, very sunny. Took along the accouterments which included a second chance for IMR4227 and SR4759, including the use of mag primers in a couple of strings. Also did a little change up with the Li'l Gun loads in that I did not size the bullets prior to loading. They cast at .310" and I'd been sizing to .309", but a sage out west suggested I try not sizing, so there you have it. 2 strings of 5 for the Lil Gun, one with the case unsized prior to loading, the other neck sized per previous practice.

2 Loads of SR4759 of the same charge, one w/standard SRP (WW SRP), the other with mag primers (CCI450). 4 loads of IMR4227 in an attempt to rathchet up velocity, with intent to find more consistent ES numbers as well as precision and cleaner burn for both powders. I was successful in both departments.

Mixed results were my reward. The ES number were reduced, but not by use of mag primers. Increasing powder charge did that and I actually had a drop in velocity with the SR4759 using the mag primers. It increased slightly with the 4227, but it was a very small single digit increment, not statistically significant in my book.

In order of firing:

Li'l Gun


SR4759


IMR4227


These groups are a little bit larger than the previous that I've posted. It was either because I was shivering or maybe because it was on the 100 yard line, who knows? I was parked beside a fellow shooting a full race 6mm PPC and he beat me fair and square. That said, the journey is not quite over, but I'm confident that the pigs are scared. Will be changing sights and do additional load workup on a more leisurely schedule down the road. Li'l Gun for now, zero with the muffler and hit the woods.

Dan

Yep, go play with that contraption.

Have fun but try not to over penetrate.








Gesundheit

Time to get down to business I guess. Took the Leupold 2.5X compact off and replaced it with a Millet SP-1 red dot, went to the range and zeroed.

I was pleased to see the average group size hold together with the dot sight. Started with a couple of groups at 25 yards, then moved to the 50. About 3/4" with a 3 MOA dot is fairly consistent with other guns I've used them on and that's what I got. At least until I put the can on. It is common to have a shift in POI with one installed but I was a bit surprised by how much for this rig. POI went down 6" and right 1".

Wow....thought I'd missed the entire target board at first. Nonetheless, once the dial was cranked it came back up to where it belonged. Mystery I won't worry about much actually, it isn't likely I will shoot the gun much w/o the suppressor. Load was 6.4 gr. Li'l Gun, Dan's special mystery wax lube, nominal MV of 1025 fps. Two groups @ 50 w/o the suppressor averaged .86" and two with averaged .55", 3 shots each.

I've done a bit of examination with some ballistic software and find the consensus is that the bullet BC is ~.399 at the velocity I'm using. Zeroed 1/2" high at 50 yards gives fair close to dead on at 60 and close enough to .25-.7" high at 10 yard intervals starting at 20 yards. 90% of my shots at critters in this AO are inside of 30 yards, more often less than 20.

For anyone that is interested, the report is very muted. It sounds about like a medium soft cough or a....muffled sneeze. You know I had to say that, right?

A bullet recovered today from damp sand actually gained a 1/2 grain of weight.





I'm good to go.