Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders Muzzleloader Project in SE Az.

Talk about rode hard, put away wet,....this old .50 cal., percussion sparked 25Lb. "Chunk Gun" BTDT.

As luck would have it the bore was well greased / oiled prior to it going' wherever the hell it was prior to going into intensive care here. I've had the breech cap off and the rifling is very strong, and good to go for some patched round ball shooting. Its' VERY slow twist would indicate that was it's original intent......

As is the case with a lot of orphaned vintage ML Target guns, ...this one was missing it's "Kit". One can only begin to guess where the original false muzzle and ball starter for its' 1.700" dia barrel ended up,....

Oh well,in a case like this, some reverse engineering goes into play,....

Co-axing the raw Falsey got interesting for a while,...
...the bore was left undersized, Piloted, and than the pins CAST in skew with an appropriate retaining system.

Marine Bronze chips rain, as the ball starter's roughed out.

....than line reamed

Close to complete,....reducing the ball starter's cupped nose will require some actual loading and shooting

Sprue up ?
Sprue down ?

Dunno,...so I cut a dual radius in the ball seaters nose cup,...leaving clearance if it's sprue up.

Fun!

Nice work.

This barrel sports a .545 groove depth, and a somewhat
" choked " .521" bore,....

The false muzzle is tapered to allow a ball and patch to "thumb" in, above a straight cylindrical section, which currently sits right at around .542"...
this may get opened up, but very slightly, if any.

Figuring that a .510 dia. Round ball, and a .010" patch will require that the final dia of the nose cup be reduced a bit,...things were purposedly left tight, so's to verify that the co-axial alignment was Skookum, and it is.

Fun dittos.

GTC



GTC

Memories! Had an old Royland Southgate rifle with a false muzzle. About 38 caliber. Thanks for posting Cross!!!

Nice work! Well played, sir!

Cross

A nice work in progress there man! I've read...think it was in Ned H. Roberts book on The Caplock Rifle that in building the rifles used for 40 rod shooting that the bar stock was ordered extra long for building a false muzzle shooter and a section for the false muzzle was cut off prior to boring/reaming/rifling. The muzzle of the barrel was then drilled for the FM holding pins then the FM was joined to the barrel and then the normal drilling/reaming/rifling was done.

Am I right on this??

Always wanted one of the Dudes!!

My understanding is that the barrel blank was bored ( e.g. "deep hole drilled or gun drilled") Reamed,...and THAN muzzle end drilled for the pins. The muzzle end was cut, bisecting the pin holes, and both pieces squared up,...The Barrel and the muzzle end piece that were was to become the false muzzle were than fitted together on tight pins, and secured with a clamp. The barrel was than rifled in the conventional manner of the day, its "False muzzle" right along with it.

The BIG slug guns are still awe inspiring in terms of accuracy coupled with , indeed ACHIEVED with BIG bore sizes, HEAVY bullets, and MASSIVE powder charges.

I've been noodling around with various methods and stunts that one might implement if he just absolutely HAD To come up with symetrical and conforming rifling in reverse engineering mode,....It's doable, and I think I'm close to having it figured. Not going to talk about it until I've actually pulled it off, though.

GTC

Somewhere, someone is going to smile when the postman comes a'wheezin' to the front door with a delivery.

Nice work there!

Very cool. Very cool indeed!

The initial patch lube / treatment will be a mixture of beeswax, rabbit kidney fat, and SIMICHROME polish. I'll be keeping my eye on the crown,and certainly measuring it, as dialing the new (as yet to be built) sights in. Cannot anticipate anything much happening, ....bore condition wise, than the gradual disappearance of a fairly uniform brown internal "patina".

Can't feature this one being ANYTHING but a shooting fool.

GTC

Love this post and admire your talent.
I always wanted a lathe and mill, and wanted MORE the knowledge to use them.

This is a simple tapered smooth bored ball starter,...no rifling.

In MY machining world, it's axiomatic that NOTHING GOES BACK TO THE SAME PLACE TWICE,....EVER. In other words it is technically IMPOSSIBLE to perfectly replicate a missing rifled false muzzle.

I know that today's high end machining processes get VERY close to that ideal situation, golly, they're now talking ANGSTROMS, for tolerances. I'll also BET that a really well equipped , modern state of the art machining facility could take an old original barrel, and with their command of lazer / digital metrology, generate a clone thereof that would be damn near dead nuts in conformance to the original barrel's dimensions in all respects.

The ideal dimensional relationship between a RIFLED slug barrel and it's false muzzle is the objective.

OK,....so how the heck does one pull this off in a 19th into 20th century tooled shop ? Patent date on your lathe falls into the late 1880s ( as does mine)

Let's hear it,boys, I'm all ears.

GTC

Well, you can high tech the chitt out of some things, but I prefer paths less common....



Frog ear, newt butt, breath of butterfly...

You dear sir are the man.

Just read this thread and I keep looking for the page 2 button. Hurry up so i can see your vision!!! :-)

Okay,....Griz

Nothing bespeaks vision like a half decent set of sights,....and the original "lollypop" that would have accompanied this was long gone, an long time ago, a HORRIBLY bodged barrel sight had been retrofitted by some hack.
Several aborted efforts to match the original super fine pitched threads in the VERY hard tang saw the place littered with tufts of pulled out hair and broken or dulled taps,...It wasn't 1/4-80, and it wasn't 1/4-100, and the original catalogue for Smithing tools that tap was ordered outta' went up the chimney, or under a still as kindling long ago. Maybe it was used in the outhouse behind George Leonard & Sons emporium.
The original threads were ground out / removed with little stones, and some kinda' creative alternative pursued.
Got this one right on the third try, though I'll own up to the "staff" leaning off to the left like a drunken pirate with his peg leg stuck in a gopher hole.
There just ISN'T any way to get hold of this thing and dial on a flat, it's ALL radii !
The soapstone "Spud" was used to dam the solder, and also to get the best vertical alignment I was gonna' get.
This is not a Purdey, or a museum quality resto,...the rifle's going back into competition, and until it's shot a bit, "close enough" is just that,...
There's a thread over in the gunsmithing forum that has some more detail re: this stunt, along with some serious campfire dialogue ranging from intelligent tech to serious blither and butt-hurt feelers.

I have a fairly good sized stash of parts and pieces in raw form, ....spooled up many years ago by some old duffer who was making several different sizes of Soulle tang sights.
Given the embarrasing list off to the port that the new recess evinces, it seemed that providing some windage adjustment just migh be in order
Once some O1 drill rod was threaded to the new 1/4-40 TPI
chosen the goody box was raided, and this widget counterbored slightly @ .250", than tapped 10-32"



Those of ya' owning Soulle replicas will likely recognize the raw stock chosen, crap there's a LOT of fooling around goes into building those lash ups !



Sight, bottomed out, that should be plenty low enough



Maxed out,....should be about right for a "40 Rod gun", ..if not, spooling up taller one will be short work, I can probably wring another .250" out of the clearance below without hanging it through the trigger plate



Horsing this barrel around from vise to vise is fatiguing,....everybody has to believe in something, I believe I'll have a beer, and put the day's tools away.

Nice to see this one get the love and attention she needed so bad.
It would have been a shame had she gone to the scrap can if she hadn't found you.
Nicely done Sir!

The front end of this job was pretty damn challenging,...the Rifle was broken clean in half at the wrist, the breech cap's vent completely trashed / eroded away, the lock in rags and tatters.
As time allows, I'll post a few pics of the remediation of those woes.
From what one can learn about Leonard's rifles, it's more than likely this one went to war,...a LOT of Berdan's guys brought their own equipment.

GTC

"I see", said the blind man.

Shush, Helen Keller's Cat might hear you !

SOOooooo,....The first pic below is the classic, nay,...SUPREME example of the well worn theorum, "Do NOT cut that little widget loose without first completing ALL of your machining operations.
Pretty much all freehand milling, and from here a leather glove and a file is all ya' get. Maybe if i drag it over to the feed store and back on the end of a log chain it'll look a little more "finished".?
Actually kinda' GLAD that the original raw stock was so roughly machined,...the height of the bar is already set, as it were. Any complaints and I'll just blame "duffer", ....he's dead anyway.

Anyhoo,....the sight's "Tunnel" will wind up being a little bit longer component than pictured, and the lower dovetailed block will be sculpted a bit, too.



Let as much light into your rear aperture as you possibly can,....after reading a great article in one of the "Accurate Rifle" pubs, regarding this, I started doing it,...bore the thing out to a tapered SHELL, and polish the dickens (or crap) out of the ID,...regardless of how small a final aperture hole is chosen, the sight picture WILL improve.
I damned near need Braille on my irons any more,...so focusing
( ) on how alla' this plays is important.
My crack about Helen Keller's dog er, CAT went unappreciated, there's now a mob of what looks like blind, crazy people demonstrating in front of my place,...I better go bring them a beer, or something,...

Later.

GTC

I thought her cat was a seeing eye cat and was deaf. Mercy, the things I learn....and what happens when you give the deaf the silent treatment anyway?

I like the way this unfolds. Ups and Downs, lefts'n rights...looking very functional it is.

Does the carriage come with it? It's obviously a heavy gun and all.


D

Looked like Gracie was not planning on it leaving. miles

Naw, she was warning that little cattle dog, Nip to stay away from it.

I'm thinking that a couple of wee holes tapped right at the outside edge of that dovetail wind base,....lined out so's the radii on the upper slider engage some wee screw heads will keep the aperture and slider from falling of, ....getting lost.

Working with that same raw stock, one could easily have a nice windage lead screw tucked up underneath, between the two components,... # 4 or 5 40 TPI would be just the ticket.

GTC

I concur.

I did NOT want to De-Solder that widget,...
.....really,....and yet had not the heart to live with the drunken pirate staff alignment..
Dismantled the gun (yet again) and judiciously heated one side of the 56% silver soldered joint,......and lifted one side off, just slightly. Came REAL close (no cigar) so WTF,....did it again. Pretty pleased with the end product, 80% of the joint is still flooded with a SS formula TOUTED as having superior "Gap Filling" characteristics, and there's no forces loading on that component.
The threads have a wee bit of lash, ....I''ll dope that miniscule opening created with some acraglas,....grease and release compound on the staff,...that should give some decent extra friction, and drag on the staff's threads.
The new "tunnel" was SS'd to the little mortised base, than beaded.
The first pics give you an idea as to just how Skookum the perpendicular to bore axis this FINALLY achieved. and the centered tunnel LOOKS right, now.
No big deal to make up a wider base with more wind travel, if needed.
Couldn't resist spooling up an eye cup,,....pictured as well.
A decision is pending, regarding wee changable apertures, or just a small borehole through a fixed plug in the tunnel. If changables are the order of the day, some 10-40 TPI Tap and Die tooling will have to be brought in / procured.

To late / Dark to shoot, dammit .

Cheers, GTC

Yer makin' my trigger finger itch....

Greg, it might be an illusion, but from your picture looking from back to front - it appears the tang is crooked (bent to one side)
True or false?

I saw that as well, A little Cast Off for a right hand shooter?

25 lb "George Leonard & Sons" stump gun.

George may have made good barrels, but I'd venture his sons enjoyed Laudanum in their morning whiskey,and addded Hemp to their pipe tobacky. Some of the original work encountered left me pretty much convinced of that.

GTC

Pics above
....it became evident that I was going to drive myself around the bend (further ?) trying to get a truly PLUMB orientation on the sight staff,...some creative "fixturing " was clearly in order. To have the rifle assembled completely WAS going to be the only way to ensure that a cut into the tang was in skew. Small shop, small mill, BIG rifle.

Corners got cleaned out, in the quest for sturdy blocks, chocks, and other misc. ballast. Getting this all Skookum did NOT happen in 5 or ten minutes, more like the better part of a morning, and well into the afternoon.

The actual cut ?......the work of maybe 2 minutes, max

A white brass "alignment boss" was generated, and Silver Soldered in its' hard won niche.

Pictured here prior to the crazy balancing act in the mill stunt, the sight has been substantially modified from it's first configuration, a wider "table" being the main mod


Screws will prevent the windage slide from doing a disappearing act, the original eyecup has been cut down into a locking wheel, and a new eyecup generated

Marine Bronze "Barrel Foot"



Still needs counterbored and final dial in, as well radii on the bottom, fore and aft faces, so's to slide / glide on the big "stump".

In the last series of pics, one can see that the horrible and unsightly "rust freckling" that was evident at the point where the False muzzle / ball starter was being made seems to be going into abeyance, disappearing,as it were.
The surface finish on that barrel looking just a bit more presentable ?

It is,...and the "formula" for getting there is going to be spoken about, at some point hence. Something I've never tried before, and man, does it ever WORK.

later,

GTC

I'll give you a blue ribbon for your clamping. That's some Rube Goldberg level stuff, nice job...

Repetitive LIGHT cuts were the order of the day, amigo.

I mean half the thickness of a blond angels pubic hair light.

Actually, with some good hand pressure down on the buttstock, holding the thing into the angle iron "Trough", that setup was remarkably stable.

Been doing the "dial in" with shooting the old beast for the last coupla' days, pics and some comment soon.

GTC

Cross

I'm waiting for your report on the results of the shooting!!

Looking good. Checking for updates often.

Soon,...promise.

GTC

Amazing work. I couldn't find the on switch for your equipment. Looking forward to an update too.

Things got sideways with posting pics, and I think I've got it sorted out now.
The commissioning of this rifle called out a good 50 yard backstop,...some iron and a LOT of dirt got moved and the foundation for what will probably grow a bit emplaced.
An old radial arm saw gave it's life to become a new shooting bench, as did a very heavy desktop.Building the bench and the Backstop pretty much wiped out Saturday,a Sunny calm sorta' day. I worked well into the night, assembling the rifle and it's kit






GTC

By mid-day Sunday it was blowing cold, gusty and wet....ably assisted by a local Bud, the shoot went forward.

First shot in God only knows how long,...Fairly light at 70 Gr FFG behind a .510 Round ball.



It commenced to get WET.....wasn't exactly a warm and toasty wind, either.

Taken on a somewhat nicer day ( this AM, actually), one can really see the extreme cast off in this old target rifle's stock design.



I'll candidly state that so far I cannot shoot this rifle well at ALL. With the lighter charges and a very LONG barrel time / slow recoil impulse I could actually FEEL the buttstock pulling itself off to the right.
Increasing the charges to the load noted below eliminated a weird elevations problem, ....OK, maybe not so weird, I think that wedge was a bad idea. Anyhow, while consciously moving away from a soft "free recoil" style of benchwork, and over to a harder hold, I could STILL feel the bloody aft end of this thing trying to move itself off to the right. The shot tossed out of the raggy assed, and embarrassing "group" below is, I firmly believe, the result of feeling that shot going wrong and actually pulling the gun back, and over correcting.



Alla' that said, this old beast looks to be showing promise,...Load development and exploration of different rests and holds will no doubt yield better results.

GTC

Outstanding, Greg! Thanks for getting that piece of history back up and running, even though it isn't mine.

Do you have any 3f KIK? The .50 cal muzzle loaders I have worked with all preferred it. ~85 gr. or so seemed to be a consistently good load.

Can't wait for the next installment!

Ed

The next installments will (hopefully) be coming from a place South and East of my lurk, Ed. As quick as the bellicose and aggressive creature that's taken up residence in it's intended crate, this rifle will ship out.
This rifles stock WAS quite literally broken in half, and I was basically held together by the lock and trigger guard screws. Seeing as how a Leonard Rifle graces the cover of Robert's Book, resurrecting this one was a good path. The wood was in bad enough shape that REPAIR of same was chosen, with a view towards running it hard in competition, and perhaps later re-stocking. There's a LOT of both metalic and organic reinforcement laying under what's basically a thin veneer now, the view below showing the abbreviated and repaired original trigger German Silver / "White Brass" guard and an unabashed plug of hardwood dropped in with no apologies,....the wrist was split , and the crack that ran through the lock mortise is clearly visible.



The sight was given a quick dunk in the Niter pot, and rusting it to matching patina may, or may not go forward at some future date. ( jeez, that sounds like something written by .gov, no ?).

I made up three apertures, and the last one was punched with a .024 hole,....

Ya done good! Thanks for the update!

If I'm reading coordinates correctly, that piece of art and it's case (minus the Chupacabra hybrid remains) will have to pass in the vicinity of my and Sharpsman's places before it gets home.

I recommend that it pause for a rest at each locale to "stretch it's legs" and a fresh cleaning and oiling before resuming it's journey.

Ed

Do you think ya might could employ a bigger maul??

Going to put up some "project file" pics,....pardon the patchwork aspect (kinda' like the gun) ....questions welcomed. I'll put pics up in blocks, one phase at a shot.

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Greg,

Is the nipple for a #11 cap or a Musket cap?

Ed

Stainless,Ruger Old Army, for #11 (PLENTY HOT ENOUGH)

I really prefer that 3/16 hex for a six point wrench or socket.

Got em' from TOW

GTC

A big THANK YOU to Rick Bin,....for helping to untangle the knot that posting a scad of pics this AM tied.
SE Az. Kompooter Klutz strikes again.

Those Nipples are threaded 12-28, which is a REALLY nice feature if one anticipates playing on this side of the pond, with Standard ASME dimensions.

TOW's part # is PRA-S

Nipple, 12-28 thread, for Ruger Old Army revolver, #11 CCI cap, stainless steel, for Ruger hex socket or Track's #NW-130 wrench
Cone length: 0.270"
Thread journal length: 0.260"
Overall length: 0.530"
Diameter of base: 0.285"

The "Metric" stuff / sizing for percussion nipples is just about strategised to drive a sober Mechanic to drink.

....crap, think what that could do to this humble scribe.

GTC

I love posts like this with great pics like a photo journal.