Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Rebarreling an old war horse - lots of pix, improving the cartridge

I was going to put this in the improved cartridge thread, but there are a lot of pix, and the improved cartridge is going away for a "less improved" cartridge.

This is the rifle. It's a 1942 Savage made No 4 Lee Enfield. Have a little respect. He's going to be 74 and he's a veteran.



I converted this rifle from 303 British to 303 Epps about 20 years ago. You cannot see the chamber or the single stage trigger that's in it. But both are there. Here is a 303 British beside two 303 Epps cartridges.



A 180 gr. bullet fired from a No 4 Lee Enfield in 303 British manages approx. 2450 fps. The same bullet fired from a No 4 rifle chambered in 303 Epps manages approx. 2600fps. Pressures were the same for both, so improving it made a No 4 Lee Enfield into a 308 Win.

But there were a couple of things that bothered me about the conversion. The first was bullet availability. There aren't too many .311/.312 bullets around. And .311/.312 bullets are undersized for the barrel anyway.

The second was the magazine. As with most improved cartridges, when you blow out the case wall, the improved cartridge does not sit properly in the mag and feeding can be a problem. I had feed issues with all my Epps rifles.

So I decided to do this.



This is a Shilen 308 barrel. It's a 1 in 10 twist, 6 groove tube, which I have already cast a spell upon in order that it will be a hummer. Spell casting aside, I choose to rebarrel it to 30-303 because I can use .308 bullets, the mag will feed properly again and I can use my 303 British dies and accessories.



So it's still improved, just not as much as before. But it's definitely more user friendly. The new barrel is .006 smaller which will not affect reloading recipes for 125, 150, 175/180 or 200 gr. bullets. I will get to use 165s and possibly try some .308 copperized monotonous type bullets too. I was even thinking about 220s, if they fit properly.

To end this post, here are some other pix of the rifle. I put a scope mount on it years ago, made from 90 degree bent steel, made a 5 rd mag for it and installed a cheek rest to bring my face up to where the scope is.

I also want to try some 155 gr. Sierras and 180 and 190 grain match bullets.

At this time, I am unsure whether the foreend wood will be trimmed like the later Envoy rifles. I have to get the barrel threaded and put on first.

I am also not sure of which scope I'll use. Ultimately, this will be a hunting rifle, so I am leaning toward a 4 power Leupold. I just ordered some low mount Warne rings for her, so things are slowly coming together.

Nice improvement for a classic battle rifle.

Pretty cool.... A 30-303 sounds interesting. Let us know how the project goes. I've got a sporterized #4 MK I*, (a 1945 Long Branch) that I'm real happy with as is. BUT.... If I ever had to, or wanted to, rebarrel; then I would be looking long and hard at something like that, seeing as how I reload for 4 different .30 cal. cartridges and have lots of .308" bullets. As long as the old Lee will feed them into the chamber and hit where I'm aiming I could be real happy. Might even get longer life out of the brass compared to regular .303 fired in a military chamber.

You could have also had a stock barrel rebored to .323.Mo betta.

I'm not the first to make a 30-303. Others did it before me. They are fun to shoot. I had one many years ago, but traded it off.

It won't qualify for military matches, but it will be fun to shoot informally using 155, 165/168, 190 and 200 gr Match Kings. I have some guys that I shoot with in the warmer weather. I'll quietly uncase the rifle, shoot some groups and wait for their reaction.

30-303 chambers and a new barrel don't torture the brass like many of the unaltered military rifles. I just acquired 320 once fired 303 British cases 'por nada' from a fellow whose grandfather passed away, so I'll load them up and shoot an informal memorial match.

WRT .323 cartridges, I'm not really a fan. I used to own several Mauser actions, most of which were milsurp 7.92x57. Bullets were difficult to find, compared to .308 or .312.

Times have changed. It was always easy to get .311/.312 bullets here, but that tide seems to be ebbing. I can make .313 bullets, but I've got everything set up for 200 gr. bullets and don't want to change up for other weights.

I could buy the dies to make .323 bullets, but...the Cdn/US dollar exchange rate is 1.43. Not including taxes and shipping, .323 dies would be $1200. Add delivery - $100 - and 13% taxes - $150. To start making .323 bullets would cost close to $1500. Ouch! I can rebarrel two or three rifles with nice Shilen or other barrels for that price.

Related to this build, I started looking around for scopes. I wanted a 4x33 Leupold, but because of the exchange and shipping, the best price I could find was $540+13% tax. Crazy! I'll probably end up with a 1x4 Nikon Monarch. They are only $325.

It can be tough being the US' little brother. The hand me down kid.

I love my 30-303 (30-40 Krag - 30US }

Started hunting with it in 1956. It still works.

Show us pictures when finished.

Ouch,I had no idea it would be that costly.8MM -.323 bullets are pretty easy to find in the States.I figured they would be plentiful up North also.

Let's put it this way: It's easier to find an honest politician in Washington than it is to find bullets in Canada.

Steve,
Several years back I made a 303 target rifle on a P14 action using a Shilen 311 barrel. It worked great and I believe it may have been the most accurate 303 in the world. I fired five shot groups under 3/8" at 100 and fired possibles on the 300 meter ISSF target. This happy state of affairs lasted a couple of years until Sierra, for whatever reason, started producing 174 grain bullets which were about .0005" larger than they had been (initially they measured 3112" while the next bunch I bought are 3117". Under normal circumstances, this would n't be a big deal but I cut my chamber with a 3115" throat. This was great with the first bullets but the next bunch would push back into the neck rather than entering the throat as the round was chambered. Accuracy suffered to the extent that I was frustrated with the rifle and pulled the barrel and turned it down for use on a Lee Enfield sporter (worked fine).
The action and stock languished in the corner for a few years then, this year, I decided to resurrect it as a 30-03 British. I removed the throat portion of the reamer entirely with the intention of cutting the throat separately and chambered a Smith gain twist and throated it for the 175 Sierras seated to just above the neck/shoulder juncture. This particular barrel took considerable effort break in but now has quit fouling and serious testing can begin. I have high hopes.
I had thought to chamber it for the Epps as a 30-03 Epps Improved but the standard cartridge will produce enough velocity to satisfy me. I have a thirty caliber Epps on a Ruger No 1 and like it a lot but for target use, if I want a 30/06, I have one.
Anyway, the 30-03 British makes so much sense I am embarrassed that it took me so long to do it. The only possible issue is that one can't use factory 303 ammo in it. I have re-barreled a couple of No. 4's to 30/40 Krag and like it fine but the 303 case works better.
One other interesting fact is that 303 brass is thin enough that my 303 Epps die doesn't size the necks sufficiently to hold 30 caliber bullets. My standard 303 dies are fine but the Epps dies (RCBS) are a little bigger. So I ended up making a neck sizing die which uses a Reddding bushing for my 30-03 Epps. Do enjoy your project; it will work well, i'm sure. GD

I hope you don`t take this wrong,but why?Are there Government restrictions on the sale of bullets?Can they not be imported?Could not a friend in the States gift you some?

Bullet availability is restricted in Canada for the same reason that such things as barrels, stocks, and riflescopes are: the US State Department restricts the export of firearms related goods to Canada and most other countries. This restriction was put in place by the Clinton administration but didn't really getimplemented until GW Bush was in office. It has only gotten worse since then. Export restrictions placed on American manufacturers and distributors are onerous with licensing fees constantly increasing and applications becoming more complex. Now that the bureaucracy is well established, it will never be displaced. Even US citizens living in Canada cannot legally by a box of bullets and take it out of the US without goimg through the process and paying the price.
I'm not sure where in the world one would go to see a free-market economy at work but it sure as hell is not the United States of America. GD

There aren't too many restrictions on bullet sales in Canada. You only need a business license to manufacture and sell bullets here. Basically, bullet makers are just a metals manufacturing business. The border is the problem. US law requires a permit for exporting bullets/bullet components (like jackets) to Canada. That has only been a problem since 9/11. We get 90 percent of our bullets/components/tooling from the US, so importation has become a huge problem.

I know I'm getting older, because I used to mail order 80% of what I needed directly from the US. Barrels, stocks, bullets, parts. About the only thing I didn't get was powder and primers. It's harder now. The restrictions appeared over time.

Because importation of shooting supplies is harder and costlier now, the cupboards are bare in most gun shops - especially this time of year. Beside the regular price increases due to material costs and production, Canadian shooters and hunters are going to be hit with big increases this year because our dollar has tanked. It's approx. $1.45 CDN for every $1 US.

One of the reasons that I started making bullets was so I could have a steady supply, and soften the blow of the dollar exchange rate on supplies. Another was to get the exact design I wanted.

WRT 303s specifically, no one made a jacketed bullet that was the correct diameter. They were all .002 or .003 too small. Not all bullets obturate and seal the bore properly, either because of the material they are made of, or the rifle bore is too big.

Sending bullets as gifts still requires papers. The US Dept of State controls which "defence articles" can be exported and the procedure. Sending them without proper documentation can get the shipper into hot water quickly.

Steve
this is all to much for you to have to deal with.
Send me the rifle and I will put a proper scope on it and shoot it out with cast bullets made from pipe scrap lead still found in our drinking water supplies. I am pretty sure we will be having a run on that lead supply in a few months in the Detroit area….Now to look at Midway for a nice mould to cast some gas check plinkers…..
Nice older rifle. I have enjoyed reading your write ups on the more mature retired battle arms that no longer enjoy surplus pricing discounts.

Thanks for the kind words.

I've always loved fixing up older rifles and experimenting with cartridges. I cannot deny that the odd new rifle or cartridge catches my eye, but it's more enjoyable for me to shoot cartridges or firearms that tickle my fancy. Often, they have a history and are pleasing to my eye. I also like making my own projectiles and doing things my way.

Hunting and shooting should be like going to a restaurant. You read the menu and choose what you want.

Geez ,talk about incompetent Bureaucrats.No bullets for you guys but hey you Southern Drug Lords,we got 2,500 full auto rifles for you.

Very nice conversion. Myself, Pugs and Hatari were discussing the 303 Epps this past weekend. Say, where did you find a five round magazine? been looking for one for YEARS!.

Ask any politician and he'll tell you that he's only doing this to make our lives safer and better.



I'm not aware of anyone that sells or manufactures them anymore. Up here, they appear from time to time at gun shows, but it's not as common as it used to be. They are easy enough to make. If you or a friend does not have the skills to do it yourself, any local welding shop can do them cheaply.

http://www.303british.com/id34.html

Here you go, Jorge.

http://riflemags.co.uk/lee-enfield-magazines/

Ted

Good find. An email first to see if the ad is still up to date.