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Is it bad idea to dry to break a bull elk down by shooting the shoulders?

No. If you have a bullet that's up to the task.My last one was killed exactly that way.

Why would you think a shoulder shot on an elk is a bad idea?

When is it ever a bad idea to take out the front running gear?

Worked splendidly for me on a very nice 6x6 this past fall. 338, 225 grain North Forks.

DRT.

The first and one of only two Speer Grand Slams I've recovered in what is now 30 years of using them was from a 5x5 bull I shot through the shoulders with a 160g and my 7mm RM.

Both shoulder joints were destroyed and the bullet was lodged in the far side joint, exposed just under the skin. The bull went straight down but required a finisher. That is the only one I've shot through the shoulder joints.

(The second Grand Slam was recovered last year from a 6x5 shot through the chest almost broadside at 411 yards. It was under the hide on the far side.)

I didn't think it was. I am going to hit them with a either a 260 partion or a 250 TTSX out of a 375 HH so I am not worried about the bullet. THanks

No problem shooting them in the shoulders with a 120 BT from a 7mm08 either.

Kent

Think you are in good shape....

Unless there is a real absolute reason to shoot thru the shoulders, just punch the lungs out. Few bulls will walk very far with a 375 H&H "air gap" through their chest. Leave the shoulders alone....don't waste meat.

^^^^^^
this

Beneath the scapula ( shoulder blade) lies a bundle of nerves called the brachial plexus. This junction of nervous tissue when severely traumatized can cause Central Nervous System breakdown and even death. By taking the shoulder shot one will actually present a two pronged approach to humane harvest and timely recovery of the carcass. The highly vascular lung and cardiac system inside the rib cage will hopefully be ripped apart causing hemorrhage and hopefully exanguation. The brachial plexus will be traumatized to a level of hopefully causing a Central Nervous System Collapse.

Wow! No wonder they go down so fast!

Scapula or shoulder joint?

And have you done this?

Not trying to start a fight, just curious.

Either, though I try and get the shooter to aim high shoulder(scapula), and yep my gun and loads have done this plenty.

Kent

My reasoning. I can't see blood. Always have someone who can with me. Just easier to watch them fall.

Never shot one. Shot a few moose.

I shoot ribs for lungs, if given the angle.

I don't like wasting meat, just me.

I don't mind trailing em either. Just me.

If I have to for whatever reason, and there are reasons, anchor the animal, I"m going for a known CNS shot, and high shoulder won't be the one I try for. BUt thats my opinion.

That being said, others use it, and have great luck with it and so it sure seems workable.

The only thing I"ll add, since you are likely close to overshooting the spine with the high shoulder attempt, please reload and stay with the animal for at least 5 minutes to make sure you've severed, and not just stunned....

The brachial plexus is beneath the scapula in cervidae. Remember there are anatomical variations amongst the cervidae and humans. I believe the plexus in a human is near the arm pit region. The human shoulder is something I am not that familiar with. Humans rib cages are oval shaped opposite to cervidaes in that they do not extend ventral and dorsal(top 2 bottom) rather distally. (Side to side). The shoulder is supported by a sling of muscle and fascia. It is not directly connected to the rib cage. Under neath the scapula where it necks down to meet the humerus is where I would expect to find the brachial plexus.

I think a High Shoulder shot would involve trauma to the spine it's self. A mid shoulder shot would be more what would involve the brachial plexus. I think for me using a little more foreword point of aim in the chest has helped. I believe this to be because of involvement of trauma to the brachial plexus and also the anatomical change ruminants have had to make to supply the needed room for the four compartment ed stomach. I.E. the rumen actually takes up a lot of the distal rib cage on the animals left side. If one looks closely the diaphragm on a elk is at about rib number 7. On a side note I think that is why bovine are predisposed to pnumonia. There is simply too much pressure on the thorax by the rumen

Same here, color deficient in both reds and greens and blue and yellow.

I have hit me higher in the shoulder than hoped. Shattered the spine. It is very dramatic and lethal.

OK if you can hit them hard.
'Breaking the tripod' is a well established method for taking deer, but elk aren't deer.
A scapula provides a better opportunity for a deflected bullet than other placement. I've been on hunts with a couple of close calls involving shoulder deflections (.06 and 7mag).
I'm trying to think of a scenario where it is a better option than double lung shot but haven't thought of one yet.

I've killed a few bulls. I aim for tight behind the shoulder, 1/3 up from the bottom of the chest. I avoid the shoulder knuckle. They don't go far and I don't have the nightmare of bloodshot and bone fragments all through the shoulders and into the rib meat.
Two years ago I broke the left scapula right along the ridge with a 140 Partition from a 7mm-08. The bullet lodged under the hide on the opposite side. Very little mess and DRT.
This year's bull with the same combo I hit behind the shoulder, the bullet exited, still DRT. Hardly any mess at all.




P

The dorsal ridge of the scapula? I believe that would lie dorsal to the spine and the dorsal 1/3 of the chest almost directly above the junction of the scapula and humerus. Remember how tall the dorsal processes are of the vertebrae are in the thoracic region of the elk. This is how they have the ability to carry the shoulder in such a powerful sling.The scapula also has quite a spinous process where the two muscles are divided on outside (lateral ) the thoracic region.. It is quite a skeletal structure with a lot of thick bone ....even the ribs.

"The shoulder" is a large area consisting of the scapula and a series of bones that run down and forward and then down and back and then finally hook into the legs. Hitting the scapula is one thing but I don't think many people could hit that series of bones running from it down to the leg. Such a shot at range would be luck for most people. The other part of the shoulder is shoulder muscle only. This is what you are most likely to hit if you take the non-scapula shoulder shot. I have no idea how effective hitting that muscle is as compared to hitting the lungs behind the shoulder.

I usually try for double lung, or heart hits- but a high shoulder hit, on all kinds of game, is an instant stopper if placed properly.

I guess it depends on why someone is killing the animal. Personally I am doing it because I like elk meat.So I go for a double lung. I can't see wasting half an elk. If the elk is about to fall off in some God awful canyon or jump over a private fence,I guess that would be a reason.
I think guides and outfitters tell their clients to do it because they don't want long tracking jobs and time is money to to them .
But that is my 2 cents worth and probably worth a lot less

Saddlesore summed up my thoughts!

You shoot them were they allow you too

I prefer the shoulder crease....

But I would drive a good stout bullet through the shoulders without losing any sleep

Just for reference
I have hunted Africa just one time....the double shoulder break down is what they preach across the big pond

First of all, the SHOULDER is not a series of bones. Elk do not have a clavicle. A series of bones is called a front leg. Second, and I am sorry saddlesore, one half of the mass of a elk to pack out.....butcher .....or eat is not in the front quarter. Third, on a 90 degree angle straight broadside shot, explain to me how shooting through the scapula in the lower half of the animal would not involve a DOUBLE LUNG. Fourth, how could a DRT episode in a harvest NOT involve Central Nervous System breakdown. Fifth, If one envisions a pie plate I.e. 9 inches as the point of impact of the projectile ......if one puts the center distal to the shoulder.....a portion of the plate if not a SUBSTANTIAL part would be covering the liver, small intestine, or the rumen. In essence the Scapula covers most of the lung field in the Cervidae. How would you feel if invited to a game feed.....I am sorry I shot it in the shoulder so there ain't as much as I hoped.....Or I got this one in the guts! Let's eat! I ask everyone to study the Anatomy of what they choose to harvest and make their own decisions. It is personally my conclusion that a DRT incident does not occur without CNS involvement and a DOUBLE LUNG distal to the shoulder will increase a risk of a puncture and carcass contamination of the abdomen. Further more a front quarter is no where near HALF AN ELK.

Angus1895,
I have personally seen at least 4 elk shot by myself that were DRT with the double lung shot. The only bones hit were the ribs. I've seen it a lot on deer also.

Also, saddlesore is not talking about a shoulder being half an elk. I believe he is talking about a direct broad side shoulder shot, where the bullet takes out both shoulders as well as damage to the surrounding meat. This shot will lose a significant amount of meat, maybe not an equal half of the elk, but it can amount to a lot.

I also wonder with your 9 inch plate being centered on the shoulder, how tiny of an elk are you shooting that the plate would cover part of the liver, small intesting, or rumen?

I am saying the pie plate center AVOIDS the shoulder(. To save half the elk. )If you truly believe DRT incidence does not require a CNS involvement I cannot comment other than WOW!

And they like it when there's less meat to pack out.

When you don't need to. Less messy, and double lung shots rarely result in the elk running more then 30-40 yds or so--and I've seen lots of double lungers fold up on the spot.

Sure, if the chosen elk is standing on the edge of a thousand foot cliff, shoot him in the shoulders. If all that's available is a shoulder, then take it (provided the hunter is using enough bullet).

Then again, the last 25+ elk my 84 year old dad has killed have all been neck shots--he swears by it. I don't even try to argue with him.......

When he tries to tell my son where to shoot an elk, I just cover my son's ears.......

Casey

I've never figured out why so many guys can't track game.

Once you learn how to track, DRT isn't so important.

Well being red green deficient, really hurts my ability to track game....

As are about an estimated 1-12 males, so that might be part of the problem...

I can see colors just fine, as long as they are separate, but the moment you put blood on the grass.. yup game over

Ok I can understand that. I've tracked a few that a colorblind person may have not found.

On the other hand, a friend of mine is also r/g colorblind and he has never mentioned it being a problem. In fact he also archery hunts and has recovered game after a few long tracking jobs. Ill have to ask him about it next time we talk.

I've seen plenty of DRT elk double lunged, though usually with a frangible bullet I wouldn't attempt to break a shoulder with.

I don't know any of them fancy anatomical terms that Anus is using, but do know a DRT doesn't always require a CNS hit, or at least what we all think of as a CNS hit like the brain, neck or high shoulder.

I read some study somewhere that when a bullet strikes the chest at the top of the heart beat, it causes blood vessels all over to explode and the animal instantly drops...Maybe that's why some double lung hits result in DRT and the other 3/4 or more go 30-50 or so yards before crashing...I dunno.

As far as the OPs question, I try to avoid so much damage to the shoulders, but that's about the only reason I tend to avoid them. That gritty, nasty bone marrow and bloodshotness (if not using a TSX or the like) straight up sucks ass to clean up.

Being in the medical field, I do know there are different grades of it. I know that myself, nor my brother can see blood.

No chit.......

DRT does not always require a CNS hit is a fact.

The problem lies in the fact that you can't always get a DRT without a CNS hit.

You can sometimes. Heck I"ve seen em gut shot fall over and never leave that spot...

This fall I shot a buck, trying for the crease, and hit a bit higher than I wanted. It was a longer shot for my rifle.

I wathced the hit, realized what happend,hit high shoulder, over the spine. Put him on the ground bleeding. As I chambered the next round he flopped behind a bush... never got another shot. Until I all of a sudden see him way out of range, walking off licking himself...

Yep, lots of blood. Well most wouold say lots of blood, but enough to trail him to where he finally came out walking...

Yep, the trauma was there to the spine. but not nearly enough to do a dman thing.

He hung around the next 2 weeks just fine, and I didn't want to reshoot in case he had a mild fever..... was doing just fine a monht later when I checked the cameras the last time. He is a trash buck and I'll shoot him opener this fall again...

Thats a reason I"M not overly fond of a shot thats not giving the most leeway in ALL directions for minor misses... for most folks...high shoulder does not give leeway up or forward mostly.

If the elk is located more than 3 miles from the road, it would be a VERY BAD idea!

So what does DRT mean? If it means dead right there or immediate death how can there be a viable CNS system? If it means down right there than a leg hold trap would suffice?


To explain some more nervous tissue anatomy. There is the autonomic nervous system. It is the bodies rheostat and controller of organ function. This system is divided with the sympathetic and parasympathetic branches. The sympathetic is fight or flight,the para sympathetic is rest and digest.Not all of this system is routed through the body via the spine. There is a cranial nervous system namely the Vagus nerve that is wired into all of the organ systems. The word vagus means to wander I.e. Vagabond.Just like on any construction sight when the backhoe shows up plumbers electrtions and phone guys are all wanting to route their stuff in the ditch that is dug. This is also true in mammals, there will be the nerve ,artery ,and vein traveling together in a bundle.Generally the thicker the artery the more nervous tissue that is "wrapped" up with it.

Trauma to the peripheral nervous system will back feed through the autonomic nervous system and cause a CNS shutdown and death due to shock.
When I was in the army my job was an armor crewman. We had two different types of projectiles in our anti tank arsenal. One was a heat round one a sabot. The heat round was a frangeble type round that exploded out side the target on the surface and relied on fragments of the inside of the tank being shot to ricochet around and kill the crewman. The sabot relied on penetrating the tank and in essence "sucking" the crew out the exit hole. Now envision the thoracic cavity of the elk you are shooting as the Tank. One must get enough fragments bombarding the cavity to send sufficient traumatic signals to the brain or have enough suction out the cavity to cause enough trauma. This require bullet velocity exiting the thorax and integrity of the thorax. I.e. Punctering the diaphragm will cause the integrity of the thorax to collapse. Kind of like if the tank you shot with a sabot had all of the hatches open then you would not expect to suck the crewmembers out of the sabots exit hole. So that is why a thorax hit will give a variations of response when it come to behavior of the elk.
Now the shoulder shot.....ever heard of between a rock and a hard place? This bundle of nerves "brachial plexus" lays between the shoulder and the rib cage. That is why the observed CNS shutdown with this shot is both consistent and repeatable. The landmark used to pick point of aim is also easily communicated and understood to most. I.e. Lower half of chest directly above front leg. This landmark is also where the epicenter of the lung field lays further inside the thorax. For me personally using this aiming point has helped me harvest quicker and have less shots enter the abdomen. Certainly anticipating puncturing and smashing bone limits my choice of bullet construction and caliber. Common sense is also needed...the shot needs to be fairly broadside to work the best.I hope this helps.......your friend ANUS.

JMHO, and YMMV, I'd like the animal dead as quickly as possible without tracking into the next geographical region.

If I think the animal may make it into an area that is going to be especially challenging to get it out of, I'll take a shoulder out IF the bullet in the barrel is suited to do so.

"Challenging" can be from the terrain, the weather, distance, or other access to the animal when down. It's that split decision you make when the shot presents itself.

I'd rather not risk a loss of blood shot meat, and would prefer take the lungs/heart/CNS if possible. But, I'll take what is presented and make a decision.

Like any decision it has merits, and possible consequences for you and the animal.

Bad idea? Not to me, if you are equipped to deal with the results of your decision.

Please, CNS hits often don't result in immediate death -- a follow-up shot that results in bleeding is needed. And often times a non-CNS shot results in the animal dropping on the spot and then dying from the shot if it hit heart or lungs.

Anyone arguing this can't have much experience with game shots.

And even after looking up the definition of "distal", I can't understand what it means in the context of shooting game.

Another point I present to consider is the ciculatory system and the digestive anatomy of the ruminant. The circulatory system has a pump operated component i.e. blood. It also has a passive one lymphatics. The lymph system will take up extracellular fluids and return them back to the pump. (Blood stream). When tissues are traumatized leakage will occur that will be picked up in the lymph returned to the blood and then pumped through the body. If a bowel is ruptured a bacteria or infiltration of bowel contents will occur. Elk are ruminant so they have a lot of bacteria present very high up in the digestive system. I haven even seen regurgitation of ruminant fluid inside the chest cavity via a severed esophogus. Anyways the longer an animal lives after an bowel integrity loss the greater the chance of bacteria pentrating all of the animals tissues. This can effect the whole animals wholesomeness. As in shelf life, safety and flavor. It is my belief the loss of shoulder meat is less than the negative effect upon the whole carcass if death is delayed.

Distal means away. So I am saying a lung shot away from the shoulder puts the point of aim closer to the abdomen. Ideally a pristine harvest in my mind would be bleeding out, minimal exertion, with no compromise of bowel. Finding the carcass immediately is also a good deal for quality.

Putting them on the ground 'right now' is smarter than any other option... 70% of the elk kills I'm on are archery so I know the difference and how to track. Start skinning in 5 minutes or after waiting and tracking for an hour or more, if you have a gun put them on the ground.

It's killing, not petting and not that complicated.

Kent

They certainly don't go far if the heart is taken out.

There are too many variables to state definitively that's the shoulder shot a good idea, or not. It's one viable alternative. My bull this year was a shoulder shot, dropped on the shot. Required a follow-up. Previous two were heart/lung shots and while they traveled a little bit (15 and 50 yds), they were actually dead sooner.

Amazing how folks can kill thigns with arrows ahd have to trail them and still turn out fine... LOL

[img]https://wildcountryphotos.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/elk-anatomy-with-arrows.jpg?w=490[/img]

Maybe pictures will help.

If you put a bullet into the area shown on the circulatory system, that elk will not go far. If you get the aorta as it comes out of the top of the heart you get DRT. No blood pressure to run anything.

If you try for the shoulder joint where the dense heavy ball at the end of the humerus is you need a very heavy bullet to get through from one side to and through the other. Doing that you get a front lung hit, at least with bone fragments and a pass through with the bullet. Deadly, but messes up a lot of meat. Have done that once with .338 mag and 250 gr Swift A-Frame. Not a shot I would prefer to take but for the circumstances at the time. He still kind of half jumped anyway, but both shoulders collapsed. Had he been on the edge of a cliff, he might have made enough movement to go off the edge. Would not have made it over a fence, though.

I take it you haven't been on any elk rodeos and/or successful hunts, either archery or rifle, the farther an elk can get the farther from 'fine' also.

The answer to the question is put them on the ground if gun hunting, go over and start processing immediate.

Kent

How many hunters actually necropsy (like autopsy) as they field dress and cut up for transport? There is a lot to be learned about both anatomy and the effect of your shot if you follow it through the elk and see what it did and how it performed. Takes the guesswork out of it. An inch or two in one direction or another can make a difference in what was hit inside. If the aorta versus just double lungs the instantaneous effect can be significantly different. Angus is trying to explain this.

Angus, are you a veterinarian or animal physiologist or something? A person has to have a medical or biological background to keep up with your discussion.

Find the point of the elbow. Aim straight above it about 1/4 of the way up and you take out the heart. If you're a little high, you get the lungs.

I can't recall ever being unhappy that an elk went almost no where after some portion of the running gear was taken out.

I hit a 6x6 at not far from 500 yards one time, quartering on,with a 180 NPT from the 300 Win Mag. He collapsed like he'd been dynamited.

Depends, is the elk running towards the truck or away from the truck?....................


Casey

I almost always do a "bullet necropsy".......on clients critters too.


Casey

I like it when they fall over like a sheet of plywood.

Kent

An elk will run toward the truck as often as Hillary tells the truth.

This is why I try to avoid shoulders, if I have a choice. This elk made it about 5 feet, which is about as far as a fair number of double lunged critters go. Both front shoulders had all kinds of NASTY, GRITTY bone marrow all over them. I cut way more of it away than I prefer to.



The heart is my favorite part of the critter too. Bums me out when I blow it up like this.

Some double lungers will go 30 or so yards before crashing, and an occasional one will make it 100 yards, but to me it's no big deal to find them in normal Rocky Mountain elk country. In Roosevelt country maybe things are different.

This double lunged stag went straight the [bleep] down. I do like a frangible bullet for this work though, as the TSX type just haven't killed critters nearly as quickly IME, whether through the shoulders or behind them.


When I mean double lunged, I mean TIGHT behind the shoulder which can get the heart and part of the offside shoulder too depending on angle...Shots several inches behind the shoulder usually do end up in a 100+ yards run..

T Inman what bullet/cartridge was it that made the mess?

If the elk is in the open away from timber I will shoot for the lungs. In the timber,or on the edge of a "hell hole" shoulder shot. I usually hunt alone and the last thing I need is a rodeo or long tracking job to some nasty ravine with a bull packed into it.
I hadn't had one of those rodeos for years until this year when I shoulder shot one with too soft a bullet. But that's another story. BTW I don't like shoulder meat that much anyway.

Lefty C

200 accubond out of a .340 WBY. Range was 300+/- yards.

I like elk to drop ASAP, but will gladly take an occasional 100 yard runner to avoid this kind of mess.

That's assuming it is not right next to a fence of abyss. In those situations I have consciously broke shoulders.

Mmm.....I think that result was from a lot of velocity,and a bullet not up to 340 Weatherby velocity. Sort of understandable....have not used that combo but have seen the 338 and 340 work plenty with 210-225 NPT,and heavier bonded but without that carnage, and dead stuff.About those distances ,too.

There is this middle ground between the explosive nature of some bullets in fast magnums, and the hard, deep penetration of an X that may suit,and still work to your liking on the lung shots.

On the subject of shoulder meat loss I've seen all kinds of strange things. Usually if you go middle high double lung you will get one or both shoulders through some meat, cut out the jellied part and move on.

My dad and his friend had cow tags, dad and I went out in the morning and he shot his cow in the neck with my 338 DRT. I took Wayne out that evening and he shot a cow with my 338, double lunged through shoulder meat at 40 yds, she walked off and died in sight. Weird thing was there was cud in the jellied bloodshot meat, a bunch of it.

Another cow hunt with a friend also using my 338. He shot a cow at about 180 in the junipers. She ran off, we found her about 80 yds away, low double lunged not hitting the shoulders. When I skinned her both shoulders were pink from crazed bruising, like spider webs. I don't butcher other people's elk anymore so when we dropped it of to a processor I know, he asked, what the hell happened to those shoulders. All I can figure is she hit the ground hard on her shoulders a couple times in her death run.

Meat loss in most any case is not as bad as a picture shows once cleaned up.

Kent

Yep I am a large animal veterinarian. If I knew how to use photobucket a picture would be worth a thousand words. Perhaps this fall or if I get down to a cattle operation this spring I could take some photos of some calves and some one else good post some. For me and I repeat my self ....due to the rumen as in the big fermentation vat elk have the diaphragm....the end of the lung field is further towards the animals nose than one would think. The lung field is in negative pressure so the diaphragm will curve inward slightly so there is even less lung area towards the center of the animal. By moving my point of aim foreword towards the head....has helped my harvest events dramatically.If you have any dairy men or even access to a horse get a stethoscope......try to find the heart......left side of the animal. The loudest noise will be DIRECTLY underneath the front leg on most animals.

For meat/ quarter clean up......get two or three large coolers....big enough to hold the whole quarter submerged. Add cold water and a quart or so of white vinegar. Let soak. After a while transfer it to a clean one. Dump out the dirty one and start fresh. Keep rotating like this so the quarters get three soakings. Rub and spray while in the vinegar solution. It lifts an inordinate amount of crap out.....especially hair.

Your pal ANUS.

Jaguar.....the photo of just the lung field in my mind looks closer to what I envision. The photo showing the diaphragm looks too far back as I believe.

KRP man I wish that is how they are built. The scapula is no where near the point of aim I use! I likely directly above the front leg as visible on the bottom of the animal....lower half of chest. I believe the photo shows the scapula to close to the animals head. IMO.

Yep that's why I put the other picture in, here's the same picture without the bones.

Mostly folks need to see that the lower and farther back in the armpit, the closer to the gut and a rodeo.

Jaguar.....the photo of just the lung field in my mind looks closer to what I envision. The photo showing the diaphragm looks too far back as I believe.

KRP man I wish that is how they are built. The scapula is no where near the point of aim I use! I likely directly above the front leg as visible on the bottom of the animal....lower half of chest. I believe the photo shows the scapula to close to the animals head. IMO.

Kip look at the photograph not the artists rendition. The peak of the back above the front leg. Where it curves or radius eps up. We know the spine is essentially straight. I believe that radius is the distal ( away from the humerus) radius of the scapula. Where the cartilaginous wing is at.

Like this one or close enough?

Follow the leg up to just above center and pull the trigger...

Kent

KRP. That is what I advocate! However I think the artist must have seen it that way also! Therefore he or she must have moved some bone conviently out of the way! LOL.

Very possible, and I know you have a lot of experience here...I may have to try the 210-225 partition at some point. That 200 accubond stayed together and was against the skin on the far side, like usual. I haven't weighed it, but it mushroomed like it should have. There wasn't too much bloodshotness with that elk, though there was some. It was bone fragments and marrow that really screwed up that particular shoulder.

I wasn't too impressed with a TSX out of my 6.5x55 swede this last year on a whitetail buck. I accidentally hit the shoulder and DESTROYED it too. The only difference was, it took another 10 or so seconds for him to die, even after I hit him a second time. Small sample, but it left a bad impression.

Where that image originally appeared there was actually a notation that the bones had been moved forward to better illustrate the soft tissue, and that the reader should take that into account.

Angus, I think the diaphragm in that rendition is drawn where it joins the inside of the ribs, rather than as it sits in the center of the chest/abdomen. Seems like I am always reaching further in around the edges to cut it free than where I can see it in the center above the intestines. There is also the effect of gravity and rumen pressure on an animal when it is whole and alive and standing, so an artist rendition drawn from a dead animal that is probably lying on its side may require artistic license and a bit of interpretation.

A general observation, one thing on the skeletal illustrations, they do correctly show that the front leg is not a vertical column, but in fact the shoulder joint is well forward of the radus/ulna that make up the lower front leg below the lower line of the chest. That of course is when the elk is standing on the leg and the lower leg is vertical. So to hit the actual shoulder joint, you are shooting well forward of the rear point of the elbow joint. If you never disjoint an animal and bone it, you may assume the leg bones form a vertical column and misinterpret the location of the upper leg bone (humerus) and actual position of the scapula (shoulder blade).

What is the OP's definition of shoulder? It has become obvious to me that the definition is not the same to everyone on this thread. My definition is the bones the muscle tissue/meat and the the skin that covers this hole portion of the elk.

After skinning an elk if you lift the front leg and using a knife the "shoulder can be removed from the rib cage without the need to cut any bones. This is a large piece of a front quarter. And the meat of it's aft portion covers a significant portion of the lungs. Quite significant at some angels.

The pictures show an elk standing still, on flat ground, with no obstruction such as brush and trees. If I waited for that kind of conditions before shooting of the 30 or so elk that I have taken I would have maybe 1. I can only remember one within those conditions.

But I have for the most part hunted elk in the National forests of the Bitteroot mountains of Idaho.

I try not to damage to much meat. I try not to beak the bone in the shoulder. But "the best-laid plans of mice and men often go awry"

But then I am sure that I am not the best shooter on the internet.

8mmwapiti

"[b]What is the OP's definition of shoulder? It has become obvious to me that the definition is not the same to everyone on this thread."[/b]

^^^^
My point in wanting pictures. "Shoulder" is different things to different people. Your description of a disjointed limb is good, as long as it excludes the lower leg.

Shoulder is a large area describing a part of an animal for location. Shoulder joint , as I see it, is the bones and ligaments around the bone ends that include the scapula and humerus.

But to use Angus' terminology, it is the proximal (inside) part that is important to killing the elk. You have to penetrate to the organs beneath and covered by parts of the shoulder, or exposed better by leg movement, to do a quick job of dispatch. Shooting through the shoulder joints - massive balls of bone - makes a mess of bone fragments and bloodshot, and can go awry if the bullet can't penetrate through to the vitals and didn't send sufficient bone fragments to do the job.

T Inman that bone in your picture looks to me like the humerus. i.e. The front leg. The artists rendition in my opinion has the scapula (what I call the shoulder) a little smaller than rality for the size of the animal. I also believe it is placed to far foreword. However the pictures of the anotomy show the heart directly above the exit of the front leg as it leaves the chest. It also illustrates the length of the spineous ridges of the dorsal (top) of the spinal column. This illustrates the amount of area on the elks upper chest that is not filled with lung tissue. It also shows as krp is noting. Not a much but abdominal organs on the lower chest behind (caudal) to the front leg.

I'm sure you're right...which is why I like the shot TIGHT behind the shoulder. Due to this, I occasionally put the shot right through the shoulder on accident. I wasn't trying to pick a fight with the whole anus thing...I make fun of everyone's handle. Check out what I call half the folks in the 223AI thread

You're correct on my pic being of the humorous too, and the heart being directly behind the front leg, at least on a perfectly broadside shot. I've taken the heart out with a direct broadside shot on accident when the closer front leg is shifted forward. I try not to, but sometimes it just happens.

I think it is not realistic to plan on hitting the bone at any point from the joint at the top of the leg or anywhere along it up until the scapula is reached. Hitting the scapula is known as the high shoulder shot, not just a shoulder shot.

To me, the shoulder joint is the forward most joint. The one about halfway between the joint at the top of the leg and the scapula.

I don't know about elk, but I know from reading the posts of a deer-control shooter (who has shot tens of thousands of deer) that hitting the shoulder but not hitting bone results in a slower kill than hitting just behind the shoulder. His strong advice was to NOT take that shot and stick to behind the shoulder.

If I could text or email pics to some one. I could demarcated the land marks of the scapula on a live mule. We could totally hi jack the thread and plan a Zebra safari!

Obviously if someone is asking about breaking down or is my setup good enough for a shoulder shot, they are asking about bone.

And obviously as in my examples 'shoulder' the meat, covers much more than bone.

We have an elk camp on national forest while hunting the rez, at the same time there are Jr elk hunts in that state unit. Couple years ago a father with his son and son's friend were camped next to us. We have a large and family friendly camp and invariably most other hunters stop in and visit.

The father was somewhat physically challenged, in poor shape. His 15 year old son had a tag and the friend along for the trip, their first ever hunt. They needed help.

I told the father to take them out friday, the first day and if not successful I would take the boys into a roadless area saturday morning and kill a cow. That's how it turned out.

Driving and walking in we talked about lots of stuff, 40 years apart but they were going to the same highschool I did and on the football team. I also talked about shot placement... follow the front of the leg up above middle and shoot the shoulder.. no need to complicate it with long explanations.

A mile in we see a herd, work around for an ambush, a cow walks out at 50 yds, stands there broadside, young man is aiming, shoots, cow runs over a little rise, we walk over and she's dead.

I shot her in the shoulder just like you said!

Yes you did, great job!

And we packed her out listening to those boys retell the story again and again.

The shot was well back but still double lunged, if I had told him to shoot low in the armpit for the heart it would have been a gut shot.

Kent

Since they didn't hit where they aimed, I don't see the point. They could just as well have hit forward and missed or just grazed the brisket. The behind the shoulder shot is safest as it gives the best chance of hitting the animal.

And, you confirm the point that a hit just behind the shoulder is deadly.

And a miss behind the shoulder aim is gut and a rodeo, a miss forward from high shoulder is a missed elk or neck shot.

Just because I suggest a high shoulder shot doesn't mean they can shoot there.

This thread is about giving advice to someone you don't know or how they shoot. High shoulder is the biggest lethal area of the vitals.

Problem is people advise what they think they can do.

Since I changed from advising armpit up shots, I haven't had to knife someone's struggling elk in the dark.

Kent

Krp....well said. And to clarify my position I am eluding to shoulder blade the scapular bone. On a broadside elk.If one aims at that point above the the exit of the front leg picks one third to one half chest (about where the center of the neck is) you are in my opinion the epi center of the good stuff. This gives you a good chance to stone em. ( I still don't know what DRT means). It also stays away from the guts. If you think bone and blood is a mess....try rumen juice soaked flank steak and tenderloin. If one moves the point of aim caudal or ventral to that point then a error radius diameter of a pie plate will put some of that error radius no longer over the thorax, spine and neck (all lethal targets) but in fact will cover the abdomen.

I don't think 10 inches back from just behind the shoulder gives you a gut shot -- even on a deer. It will probably result in a liver shot, or still catch lung.

High shoulder is okay, if you don't mind completely missing the animal if you are high. If you are back and a little low it hits a no-mans-land and results in a wound the animal can recover from. I have nothing against the high shoulder, but I still prefer the behind the shoulder and half way down.

Post oak what lies in the abdomen left of the liver? How long is a whitetail rib cage? How many ribs does a whitetail have?. Where on a whitetail is the diaphragm? As in what rib does it start? Where does the front leg exit the whitetail thorax?

Reminds me of a guy at the range, had an elk tag and was talking it up. Shot his gun a few shots and it was 10 inches high at 100... He asked what I thought... I said he was high... He said that's ok an elk is 40 inches wide so 10 inches will hit it fine... that and he only had 7 bullets left in the box to hunt with.

Went on his merry way.

Kent