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I am starting a 5 acre project plot very soon and have a question about what best to do with my Timber as I cut it. It will be all Pinyon Pine and Juniper, of course both are Resinous to prevent other plant species from growing under them and competing for resources. Would chipping these and tilling them into my soil to make compost harm my soil for other future crops? Or should I avoid doing this and just remove them from the plot and sell the wood?
It would of course be much easier to just chip them and till them under, but not if there is a chance of harming the Soil with these resinous woods. Any input and advice on this situation would be greatly appreciated!
When I no longer have the right to protect my own person or property...my person and property have become public property in common.
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If you chip them and till them into the soil, you will tie up all of the nitrogen in the soil as it attempts to compost the carbon (wood chips). I would put a thin layer of manure down first, then wood chips on top, then another layer of manure. Covering of the soil is absolutely critical, as the microbes cannot survive in exposed soil. Look into lasagna or sheet compost, making compost tea, and cover crops after covering is applied. Contact Gabe Brown (do search for gabe brown in north dakota). He has done some amazing things with building soil. Watch https://vimeo.com/28055108, as well. Enjoy the journey into soil biology. 
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Do soil samples before you start, they are easy and cheap enough. With predominate pine and juniper to start with, you may have to throw the lime to it to address the PH levels in the soil either way.
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Thanks guys  I have been reading up on Gabe's "Browns Ranch" site. I will be importing Humus as Crossfire and Tim Suggested. The present Soil is high alkali like Tim's, so would I still need to add lime? My main concerns were in introducing the resinous chemicals that will leach from these particular woods. but you are saying that as long as I do it right these will not harm it or delay it much?
When I no longer have the right to protect my own person or property...my person and property have become public property in common.
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From my practical experiences over the years I wouldn't direct till any wood chips high in plant resins such as pine,juniper or walnut in a new planting.These plant compounds are the hardest for microbes to digest in the short term [ not that they can't be beneficial down the road ] but upset the PH and actually inhibit the infusion of nitrogen fixing bacteria. The last few years we've had pine wilt in epidemic proportions hitting white pine stands the hardest locally.My neighbor lost his entire planting along the lane road to his house,had em cut down and chipped into big piles.He is also an avid gardener.. two yrs ago he spread a 3-4 inch layer over his half acre plot,fall plowed it in over the winter and had the worst garden this past summer ever.Many seeds didn't germinate and bedding plants started out well but were stunted as they put down deeper roots and lost over half that wilted and died.. We have recently closed our 20 year greenhouse bedding plant business to concentrate on the local Farmers Market as we garden almost 5 acres in different locales so I'm well aware of good soil management SOP's and the do's and don'ts mainly by trial and error...just my 2 cts.Good luck and good gardening.
You better be afraid of a ghost!!
"Woody you were baptized in prop wash"..crossfireoops
Woody
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From my practical experiences over the years I wouldn't direct till any wood chips high in plant resins such as pine,juniper or walnut in a new planting.These plant compounds are the hardest for microbes to digest in the short turn [ not that they can't be beneficial down the road ] but upset the PH and actually inhibit the infusion of nitrogen fixing bacteria. The last few years we've had pine wilt in epidemic proportions hitting white pine stands the hardest locally.My neighbor lost his entire planting along the lane road to his house,had em cut down and chipped into big piles.He is also an avid gardener.. two yrs ago he spread a 3-4 inch layer over his half acre plot,fall plowed it in over the winter and had the worst garden this past summer ever.Many seeds didn't germinate and bedding plants started out well but were stunted as they put down deeper roots and lost over half that wilted and died.. We have recently closed our 20 year greenhouse bedding plant business to concentrate on the local Farmers Market as we garden almost 5 acres in different locales so I'm well aware of good soil management SOP's and the do's and don'ts mainly by trial and error...just my 2 cts.Good luck and good gardening. This was my concern. It is fairly heavy Timbered and they have already been dropping these natural growth inhibitors for thousands of years into this Soil. So I was thinking that it might be unproductive to add even more rather than start the process of allowing these inhibitors to leach away ASAP. But of course to cut and remove them will double my costs, labor and time involved so I had to ask from those more knowledgeable.
When I no longer have the right to protect my own person or property...my person and property have become public property in common.
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Rim of the Grand Canyon
Looks like , at this point there's no arable soil, and outside of normal rainfall, no readily available WATER.
HIGH altitude = SHORT season
I can't say I'd start logging clearing a healthy established forest, with a view to establishing s system that has worked well in Maine or Washington State.
Are you dead sure this has the REMOTEST chance of working ?
FWIW, ...can't abide "Lasagna Gardening",....newsprint being some of the dirtiest toxic chit imaginable,...and the GLUES used in cardboard still having their juries out, as well.
GTC
GTC
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Cross, just layer compost, then manure(nitrogen), then a 4 inch layer of chips from any branches that he chips to remove trees from his property,(the more needles, the better), then top off with light layer of manure. Once the covering is applied, the soil will begin to heal. With any luck, the monsoonal flow will return, and wash compost tea down to the soil. Just like nature does it. The guy in Washington and North Dakota both receive 16 inches of annual precip. I receive 3.5 to 5. If He doesn't have chips available, cover it with some other kind of mulch. If the soil doesn't get covered, it will never heal. Can't support healthy soil when the bare ground gets 140 degrees in the sun. Cover it with something. Cover crop and get some biomass down, soil microbes can't be fed with no organic matter in the soil. I have added gypsum to some first time beds in new hoop houses to untie the minerals tied up with salts. His soil test will tell him what he needs to add as a catalyst in his compost tea recipe. Good luck with the growing, and keep us posted. Love the pictures. Take care. GOD bless.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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You need to mix a whole lot of green with that brown and it should be done in a compost pile where you can turn it. The general rule is 50/50.
Brown=woody
Green=grass clippings, etc.
If you put Taco Bell sauce in your ramen noodles it tastes just like poverty
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Campfire 'Bwana
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From my practical experiences over the years I wouldn't direct till any wood chips high in plant resins such as pine,juniper or walnut in a new planting.These plant compounds are the hardest for microbes to digest in the short turn [ not that they can't be beneficial down the road ] but upset the PH and actually inhibit the infusion of nitrogen fixing bacteria. The last few years we've had pine wilt in epidemic proportions hitting white pine stands the hardest locally.My neighbor lost his entire planting along the lane road to his house,had em cut down and chipped into big piles.He is also an avid gardener.. two yrs ago he spread a 3-4 inch layer over his half acre plot,fall plowed it in over the winter and had the worst garden this past summer ever.Many seeds didn't germinate and bedding plants started out well but were stunted as they put down deeper roots and lost over half that wilted and died.. We have recently closed our 20 year greenhouse bedding plant business to concentrate on the local Farmers Market as we garden almost 5 acres in different locales so I'm well aware of good soil management SOP's and the do's and don'ts mainly by trial and error...just my 2 cts.Good luck and good gardening. This was my concern. It is fairly heavy Timbered and they have already been dropping these natural growth inhibitors for thousands of years into this Soil. So I was thinking that it might be unproductive to add even more rather than start the process of allowing these inhibitors to leach away ASAP. But of course to cut and remove them will double my costs, labor and time involved so I had to ask from those more knowledgeable. I just have to ask? DO you have a wood burning stove? 5 Acres of "fairly heavy Timbered" land, juniper and pinyon, is a good supply of firewood. ( xtra income? get others to come pick it up saving you having to have it removed?) You could have the smaller stuff and branches shredded and use for mulch between beds, if you're planning on going that route. I can't remember, but did you mention in your first post here what you want to plant on that land? Greg makes a few good points, especially about water if you are up by the ditch. One could leave a few of those trees to gather pinyon nuts and juniper berries. Roasted pinyon nuts are one of my favorite snack foods while still hunting. Perhaps there's a US distiller looking for a source of berries for their gin: http://www.ginwisdom.com/americangin.htmlAnother option I haven't seen mentioned, perhaps done after the firewood cutting would be to burn the slash and scatter the ashes, depending on the results of your soil tests. Following the "rules" about burning in that area, of course. Whatever you do, good luck in your venture. Geno
The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men.
In it is contentment
In it is death and all you seek
(Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Rim of the Grand Canyon
Looks like , at this point there's no arable soil, and outside of normal rainfall, no readily available WATER.
HIGH altitude = SHORT season
I can't say I'd start logging clearing a healthy established forest, with a view to establishing s system that has worked well in Maine or Washington State.
Are you dead sure this has the REMOTEST chance of working ?
FWIW, ...can't abide "Lasagna Gardening",....newsprint being some of the dirtiest toxic chit imaginable,...and the GLUES used in cardboard still having their juries out, as well.
GTC
GTC Cross, Do you have any links or sources regarding those glues? I've been using cardboard for years, trying to stay mostly with one that don't have a lot of printing. Thanks, Geno
The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men.
In it is contentment
In it is death and all you seek
(Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)
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Do you have any links or sources regarding those glues? Not sure if cardboard still uses the same glue, but back in the "80's" I knew an old couple that raised worms for fish bait, and they ground up cardboard to feed them. They said the glue is what the worms liked. miles
Look out for number 1, don't step in number 2.
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I was using a lot of cardboard myself, by way of mulch. Heavy paper feed sacks are revered as a food group by my compost worms, too, and the cassein glues used in the corugated would make sense as having protien.
A neighbor recently killed his entire compost worm herd, feeding em' some cardboard with shiny ink, and some sort of different glue. I'll try and find out what became of that.
The "Lasagna Gardeners" around here were all whacked out about their contribution s to recycling,....using LOTS of newsprint over there other layered materials,....cutting holes in the mess and planting though.
Tell ya' what, ....THAT ain't happening here,....not on my watch.
GTC
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-- “Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.”- Mark Twain
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Rim of the Grand Canyon
Looks like , at this point there's no arable soil, and outside of normal rainfall, no readily available WATER.
HIGH altitude = SHORT season
I can't say I'd start logging clearing a healthy established forest, with a view to establishing s system that has worked well in Maine or Washington State.
Are you dead sure this has the REMOTEST chance of working ?
FWIW, ...can't abide "Lasagna Gardening",....newsprint being some of the dirtiest toxic chit imaginable,...and the GLUES used in cardboard still having their juries out, as well.
GTC
GTC I know you are just looking out for me my Friend But seriously this has been in the works since I bought it in 1995. I have religiously been doing my homework concerning every aspect of the situation since. "Don't try it...can't be done" is something I have been successfully proving wrong all my life. And if I'm wrong and it doesn't work it will become at least a great Grass Foraging area for local Deer and Elk. In fact I hope to use the Deer and Elk to my advantage in helping build the topsoil the first few years. The Water situation was the first issue I addressed and I am now convinced after 20 years of monitoring my particular location I should be fine with a Collection System, Large Volume Storage and a Drip System. Water haul in emergencies is only 1/2 mile away. Most important will be proper layering of the soil and the addition of a little Clay to the Soil to help retain moisture longer. The tried and proven example of this proper soil layering was very successful for the Incas. It retained moisture very well yet had enough drainage to prevent rot. The Incas were Geniuses when it came to successful Terrace farming. As I mentioned before, I got lucky and It really is quite a unique "microclimate" apart from the surrounding area. It truly does Rain quite a bit right there weekly on an average. Very selective "Drought resistant" Species selection will be the absolute key to making it work of course.
When I no longer have the right to protect my own person or property...my person and property have become public property in common.
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Campfire Kahuna
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All,...I'm damn sure NOT any sorta' compost expert, and
won't claim to be,...the litany of mistakes and failures transpired here over the years is sizeable.
I DO have the textbook perfect " Soil Restoration" lab, though,....The Upper San Pedro Valley is a catastrophic example of mis-managed over grazing and logging,...and whatever humus existed here was carried away on the savagely hot and dry prevailing southwesterly gales a LONG time ago. Believe me, I could write a treatise titled "101 ways to TRY and keep your mulch from blowin' away",...and have to immediately generate a second edition, which would contain a chapter title "How to attract and establish large successful colonies of Termites and enormous Carpenter Ants with Wood Mulches".
ALL of what's being discussed here is valid and of laudable merit when discussing "Healing the soil" ,....By God , there are WAY to many acres of barren dead ground that were once laying rich and verdant, in need of this healing and our ongoing quest for better results will not be a particularly easy or RAPID one.
What I'm reading here, that I can't quite get my arms around is the discussion of methodologies required to completely REPLACE an OLD, and already existing HEALTHY native eco-system, with that one would have to identify as NON NATIVE.
My gut tells me that a 5 acre clear cut up there may not pan out well. I'm reading slash and burn,....and sorry, I've just seen my fill of THAT chit in SA and Africa.
Killing an eco-system so's ya' can than "heal" it leans dangerously close to playing God.
Gut's also's telling me that there IS an EASIER, sustainable, and lower impact way to produce fine vegetables up there. Abandoning one plan , so's to adopt another is sometimes just part of the game,....
GTC
Last edited by crossfireoops; 03/06/16.
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From my practical experiences over the years I wouldn't direct till any wood chips high in plant resins such as pine,juniper or walnut in a new planting.These plant compounds are the hardest for microbes to digest in the short turn [ not that they can't be beneficial down the road ] but upset the PH and actually inhibit the infusion of nitrogen fixing bacteria. The last few years we've had pine wilt in epidemic proportions hitting white pine stands the hardest locally.My neighbor lost his entire planting along the lane road to his house,had em cut down and chipped into big piles.He is also an avid gardener.. two yrs ago he spread a 3-4 inch layer over his half acre plot,fall plowed it in over the winter and had the worst garden this past summer ever.Many seeds didn't germinate and bedding plants started out well but were stunted as they put down deeper roots and lost over half that wilted and died.. We have recently closed our 20 year greenhouse bedding plant business to concentrate on the local Farmers Market as we garden almost 5 acres in different locales so I'm well aware of good soil management SOP's and the do's and don'ts mainly by trial and error...just my 2 cts.Good luck and good gardening. This was my concern. It is fairly heavy Timbered and they have already been dropping these natural growth inhibitors for thousands of years into this Soil. So I was thinking that it might be unproductive to add even more rather than start the process of allowing these inhibitors to leach away ASAP. But of course to cut and remove them will double my costs, labor and time involved so I had to ask from those more knowledgeable. I just have to ask? DO you have a wood burning stove? 5 Acres of "fairly heavy Timbered" land, juniper and pinyon, is a good supply of firewood. ( xtra income? get others to come pick it up saving you having to have it removed?) You could have the smaller stuff and branches shredded and use for mulch between beds, if you're planning on going that route. I can't remember, but did you mention in your first post here what you want to plant on that land? Greg makes a few good points, especially about water if you are up by the ditch. One could leave a few of those trees to gather pinyon nuts and juniper berries. Roasted pinyon nuts are one of my favorite snack foods while still hunting. Perhaps there's a US distiller looking for a source of berries for their gin: http://www.ginwisdom.com/americangin.htmlAnother option I haven't seen mentioned, perhaps done after the firewood cutting would be to burn the slash and scatter the ashes, depending on the results of your soil tests. Following the "rules" about burning in that area, of course. Whatever you do, good luck in your venture. Geno Honestly I love it the way it is...it really is very beautiful. But For my needs it must become Self sustainable. My "Tinfoil Hat" username hints to my intentions. lol But seriously...My Wife and I are very tired of being forced into the dependencies Society insists that "We absolutely Need" and "Have to participate" into. No we Don't...We have been living off grid and off grid capable since 2002. Just adding a bigger "Garden" to the mix now is all.
When I no longer have the right to protect my own person or property...my person and property have become public property in common.
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All,...I'm damn sure NOT any sorta' compost expert, and
won't claim to be,...the litany of mistakes and failures transpired here over the years is sizeable.
I DO have the textbook perfect " Soil Restoration" lab, though,....The Upper San Pedro Valley is a catastrophic example of mis-managed over grazing and logging,...and whatever humus existed here was carried away on the savagely hot and dry prevailing southwesterly gales a LONG time ago. Believe me, I could write a treatise titled "101 ways to TRY and keep your mulch from blowin' away",...and have to immediately generate a second edition, which would contain a chapter title "How to attract and establish large successful colonies of Termites and enormous Carpenter Ants with Wood Mulches".
ALL of what's being discussed here is valid and of laudable merit when discussing "Healing the soil" ,....By God , there are WAY to many acres of barren dead ground that were once laying rich and verdant, in need of this healing and our ongoing quest for better results will not be a particularly easy or RAPID one.
What I'm reading here, that I can't quite get my arms around is the discussion of methodologies required to completely REPLACE an OLD, and already existing HEALTHY native eco-system, with that one would have to identify as NON NATIVE.
My gut tells me that a 5 acre clear cut up there may not pan out well. I'm reading slash and burn,....and sorry, I've just seen my fill of THAT chit in SA and Africa.
Killing an eco-system so's ya' can than "heal" it leans dangerously close to playing God.
Gut's also's telling me that there IS an EASIER, sustainable, and lower impact way to produce fine vegetables up there. Abandoning one plan , so's to adopt another is sometimes just part of the game,....
GTC
I have to head out of town right now but am looking forward to picking up all this great knowledge when I can tomorrow Greg. I'm not up for burning it all either. I would rather leave some wooded areas and plant some others. But it does need to produce enough to sustain through the year. Please have a great day Gentlemen and thank you for sharing!
When I no longer have the right to protect my own person or property...my person and property have become public property in common.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Greg and bugout, I'm not a big proponent of "slash and burn", just figured if the whole 5 acres was going to be logged and there was need to get some payback out of it AND deal with the leftover, perhaps burning the slash would somewhat ameliorate the damage. Personally, I'd prefer to see a lot of native stuff, some of which can be used for food also. However, it doesn't seem to be Bugout's long term plan. Bugout, how long has your "forest" been in existence? (How old are the trees?) A lot of that area I'm thinking you are in hasn't been fully covered in PJ's for very long, a lot is the result of fire suppression. Your soil under the accumulated duff might just be more grassland type (for that area). PJ encroachment on native grassland/sage areas is a problem now that "we" have been suppressing fires for nearly a century. Sounds like you've researched your "off the grid living" situation, so good luck with becoming fully self sufficient. A Are you considering some non-traditional (to those of Northern European descent) food crops like yucca (fruits) Agave (roasted roots), Nopal (prickly pear fruit and pads) and a few others, that require little water and care? Yucca roots were used for soap also. I'm sure old Euell Gibbons could help too.  Greg and others, thanks for the info re: cardboard. I have and will continue to watch out for the shiny ink stuff. Geno
The desert is a true treasure for him who seeks refuge from men and the evil of men.
In it is contentment
In it is death and all you seek
(Quoted from "The Bleeding of the Stone" Ibrahim Al-Koni)
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Campfire Kahuna
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Geno,....tying into a thread like this and really lighting up an interesting dialogue is solid, and of SOME value.
It would appear that discussing the complexities of "RVing" in a totalitarian political climate is of more "interest" to the OP at this time, and we're to be left hanging, questions unanswered.
Flighty,vague, and very important details missing,... regarding this "project" find me at this point totally DISINTERESTED in any further dialogue.
GTC
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-- “Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.”- Mark Twain
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