Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Backpack Hunting Surviving a cold wet night

Jedi5150:

Like yourself I've had some experience with SAR and I include the Rule of 3's in a summary article that I wrote regarding wilderness survival. I also agree that it would be pretty difficult for someone to die from dehydratioin in just a few hours. I lived in Phoenix in the late 70's and was on a desert SAR team. It seemed like we spent a lot of time looking for people who had gotten lost on the Yuma bombing range while searching for brass shell casings. We usually didn't even get notified to start looking for them until they had been overdue for at least a day and it took a while to mobilize and get down there. So when we were lucky enough to find them they were on the verge of death, with no pulse, after a couple of days in the desert without water. Even in that extreme environment they didn't die after just a few hours without water.

KC

on the verge of death, with no pulse ????? wow lucky person!

The Web site says the light works 160 hours on low but I don�t know what they call usable light. All I need do is tie the poncho�s head section closed to fully water proof the shelter.

Sorry I have not really noticed this thread, but it sure would seem to be some required reading for someone who is going out into ANY backcountry whatsoever...

we teach our boy scouts to do this stuff... how to survive a night out in cold wet environments... heck in Oregon, that is what the boys go camping in half the year.. Cold and wet? Oregon supplies a LOT of opportunity for that...

Spent a short 18 months on search and Rescue also...classes going on every Saturday on something...and usually opened to the public, with few attending...

but it does amaze me how little most people know...

for anyone that remembers that Kim Case locally.. the Korean guy who died from exposure up here, after getting his car stuck on a closed forest service road, trying to take a short cut across the mountains...after passing 50 signs saying the road was not maintained in winter... but typical, thought his SAAB would go thru anything since it was from Sweden and front wheel drive...

if the guy would have just walked out on the same road he drove in on, it would have taken him 4 or 5 hours to get help...at most..but not even having that much common sense, ended up killing him...

Gents,

As above, my first choice in woods tools is the axe, full size felling (1). Second knives. I normally tote a large hatchet (GB small forest) for late spring to early fall and depending on the duration/ deepness/location and lateness/earliness of season, they get bigger.

I recognize this flies in the face of your ligheness philosophy, but it's my choice based on experience and the wisdom of the old ones who plied the north woods where I play.

All that said, my knives are my always carried, primary go to's.
My ongoing testing assures my familiarity with my equipment, but more importantly that my equipment works as advertised and for me how/where and as I use it. It's an never ending process. My question is do you ever test your bivy/contingency gear? Have you made a fire, cut shelter poles, battoned with your knife(s)? Do you know for sure that the knives you carry will survive the process? I battoned a 3" dry round with my EDC hollow ground fixed blade, and the edge rolled, ribboned. A large folder, and the pin and the lock's loose. I understand that potentially ruining of an expensive knife can get pricey, but I'd rather know before I REALLY NEED to depend on the knife or anything else I'm staking my or my families life on. Know before you go. Happy journeys.

Regards, Jim

ETA: speiling

"I battoned a 3" dry round with my EDC hollow ground fixed blade, and the edge rolled, ribboned."

New terminology to me so what do you mean by "battoned?"

Thanks

I believe 'gator is referring to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3u-gMGFWta8

Sir;

Battoning is a way of splitting a round of wood by placing the blade of your knife,(or axe) flat against the wood and driving it through with another piece of wood, the baton. This is the primary technique of taking wood down to either expose the dry interior in the case of wet wood, or breaking down a larger piece of wood, in order to make a fire. If you don't have an axe or hatchet, this is the way to use your knife to reduce the dead standing wood you sectioned with your saw (or knee, boot, a convenient rock or tree crotch), down to a size that will burn from the ignition source of a match/lighter or ferro rod. No matter what kind of tinder you carry, you still need to make big sticks small and dry enough to catch.

If you don't have a saw, you can drop and section a tree (3-4") with a knife and a baton (or rock, very abusive to the knife. Use a stick if available). But your knife as your primary survival tool, has to be strong enough in both structure and edge/blade design/ metallurgy, to be able to do what you need to be done and survive.

I have a Dozier Yukon skinner, great knife, sharper then hell, but deeply hollow ground. Great for skinning/taking apart an kill, but I don't imaging it would survive shelter building/ making a fire through battoning.

My question was, did you ever use the knife(s) you carry to take a piece of wood down to thumb size, pencil size, pencil lead size, ribbons, and shavings? Yeah, fat wood/lighter pine, birch bark, pitch, or man made fire paste, magnesium shavings,tryoxine/wet fire,Vaseline cotton, road flares will help, but they won't make a fire out of a log.

Test your stuff and your selves. Prove to your self that your stuff works and you know how to use it. Then do it blindfolded (do you know how to find and use your stuff by feel?). Then do it in the worst conditions you can find, because that's when you will need it.

Hint: you need to be able to get a fire going no matter what, until your in a place that you can't. Then you need to be able to depend on your clothing choices and equipment choices to keep you alive without a fire. Clothing as your first layer of shelter. Recreational equipment as life support equipment, that will save you when your injured and can't move, or sick, or so cold that you can't stop shacking (care to try to flick your bic?). Practice like your life depended on it, and choose your tools and accoutrements accordingly.

Regards, Jim

Gotcha!

I have hunted and wandered around mountain country in Colorado, Wyoming, and Montana for over sixty years and have done that very same thing numerous times but just called it "splitting wood."

Proves that most of us never get too old to learn new terminology. Thanks

I just did an archery safety class and a hunter safety class in the last couple weeks. I do the survival part and show everyone what I carry. A guy came up to me after the last class and asked if I was an Eagle Scout. I told him I made it to Life, than I ran out of time. He said it figured judging from all the crap I bring out with me. I'd rather have it and not need it than not have it and need it. I have a small day pack. I bring a lost in the woods kit, packed in a Primus titanium cook pot. Matches, lighter, blast match, fire starters, poncho, space blanket, folding knife, compass, whistle, mirror... I also bring a first aid kit with a Sawyer Extractor (box filled with pills), a Quick Clot trauma pack, band aids, disinfectant wash... That goes everywhere, in the outside pocket of my pack. Anything else goes inside.

I know it has gotten a lot of discussion, but I never carried an ax. A small knife and a Sven saw were (is) all I carry. You can hurt yourself with an ax and bleed out before you can do anything about it. It's much harder to do with a bow saw. There's not much out there I need to cut anyway. I'm snapping off and burning limb wood. I'm not felling trees. Definitely not in an emergency situation. I don't know. I'm pretty comfortable in the woods. I've spent a lot of time camping. It's not a lot different.

First, to each their own. I ain't an expert in anything.

I carry an axe, saw, and knife(s). I try to be able, within limitations, to do with my axe, what I can do with my knifes and vise versa, but there are things an axe can do better then a knife, and a saw is an energy saver. Plus saws make nice flat ends for splitting.

Regards bleeding control; direct pressure, elevation, pressure dressing, pressure point and tourniquet. If your alone and cut yourself that badly with your axe or knife, I'd apply the tourniquet on myself to get a handle on the bleeding, put in the quick clot (or preferably Chitosan), and pack the wound, then apply the pressure dressing over it all. Then release (but don't remove) the tourniquet slooooly, and see. Now'd be a good time to activate wilderness 911(PLB).

FYI: what you just described is part of the raison de tair of what is known as a blowout kit. Military in origin, it is designed for self aid/buddy aid, to treat the treatable things that can kill you before help can get to you. They are; massive extremity bleed, tension pneumothorax, and airway compromise. Not rocket science though It might seem so, any returning vet(THANK YOU!) can teach you how to use it in a day, and it fits in a BDU pants pocket.

Regards, Jim

I have a GB small forest axe that I carry in my 72hr kit, and a full size axe in each of my trucks. A good axe is priceless for building a natural shelter, fire reflector, and many other outdoor needs. I'd much rather have a 4-5" bladed knife and a 19" handled axe than just a big knife.

That said, I don't see packing an axe on a hunting trip when I don't plan to do any of those things. To my way of thinking a good lightweight tarp or other pre-made shelter is lighter, more waterproof, and takes much less energy than building a natural shelter. I pack my 11oz Kifaru Paratarp in my hunting kit along with 9 aluminum stakes, 50ft of paracord, and 30yds of trotline cord for about 18oz. I figure I can't pack much of an axe or even a heavy knife and sheath for that weight. I pack either my SOG Revolver or Buck crosslock that have small but funtional saws if I need to process small amounts of wood. I also pack a emergency bivy sack for sleeping and a cheap mylar space blanket that can be used as a ground sheet or fire reflector.

I guess if I was planning to head out into the wilderness for long term survival I'd definitely want an axe. I just don't see packing the weight hunting when I already have plenty to carry. The places I have hunted there has always been enough dead wood between dry limbs/trees and dead stuff on the ground to keep a campfire going for a night or two without needing an axe to process wood. I may feel differently if I was hunting somewhere that wasn't the case.

Serious question: What is so special about a Granfors Brucks (sp?) axe? I know they are hand forged and of very good quality, but are they really anymore usefull than a "common" axe? If so, how? I confess that I have never actually seen one, but have read some about them. Are they better than an Estwing or something similar? I do like quality gear and really would like to know. Thanks for the reply.

They are much like any other top quality tool. They hold an edge better and have better balance and a more efficient design than cheaper models due to the angle of the head. I was amazed at how easily mine with the 19" handle felled a tree after using the cheap full-size axes from Orsheln's growing up. Wetterlings axes are cheaper and equal in quality from what I have read since buying mine. The Estwings are good axes too, but heavy. I have read about Estwing handles breaking in very extreme cold situations, but haven't ever seen one or talked to anyone who had it happen. One nice thing about a wood handled axe is that the handle can be replaced easier than on a steel or poly handled design if it would break.

Gents;

Moral of the story was practice with and test what you carry as "contingency" gear as well as how your hunting gear functions in "contingencies".

I don't hunt where or how you all seam to hunt, based on your posts. I live and play in the north east, different environment, different tactics/game yields different load out. But cold and wet is universal, and dieing from exposure can happen anywhere.


I don't often make brush shelters, as I carry a tarp, polls, pre rigged cordage and pegs. My axe/saw/knife(s), are about making logs into fuel, kindling, and tinder, fire making. I try to be able to make fuzz sticks and shavings with my axe, and make 3-4" sectioned rounds smaller with my knife, in case I should loose or break one or the other. The saw is a one trick pony, but to me, the amount of calories it saves, and it's efficiency, makes it worth carrying.

My posts weren't intended to be about what you or I choose to carry, it was about making certain that what you choose to carry and your practiced skills, would be enough to keep you alive in extremis, in the worst conditions and circumstances possible in the environments you hunt in.

Regards, Jim

I'm with Rob and prefer a folding saw over an axe for the same reason, you can't hurt yourself as easily or as badly with a handsaw as with a hatchet or axe. In most of the lower 48, a person who is lost in the woods is his/her greatest danger.

While you may be a Brad Angier or a C.B. Colby when it comes to axemanship skills, most people aren't.

Jeff

Like I said, I ain't Jack s..t. To each, their own, choose what works best for you.

Regards, Jim

I would like to add one more piece of gear for wet country- a pack cover (or waterproof bags in the pack). I was on the Chilkoot Trail in Alaska and just over the Pass into BC after a heavy 20 hour downpour. My outfit got wet including a down sleeping bag. It was the coldest night of my life in a wet bag in a sleet and wet snow storm above treeline. It was the closest I have ever come to freezing to death and the date was Augst 31.

No offense meant or taken alligator, it sounds like wood in your situation is more of an issue than where I hunt. I can find enough dead limbs small enough to gather or drag to a campsite easily enough where I hunt and fish, been doing it for years. Tinder is something I pack, but small twigs and grass for getting the fire started are easy to come by also. If I was dealing with deep snow and needing to gather dry wood off trees I'd want more tools also. For me I can make feather sticks with my knife and the SOG is stout enough to baton so it handles my needs.

You made a good point, know how to use what you carry and carry what you need.

Sir;

All good!

Everybody plays or works in different areas/situations, and has their own experiences/opinions, and preferences. What works for me, may or probably won't work for you. That's why I didn't want to get into equipment.

I'm trying to keep to the spirit of this thread, carry what you choose to carry, what you like, what works for you, just make sure it will work to save your life if it should come to that, and that your practiced enough with it so you can save your own life. Don't assume, don't trust the hype, prove it to yourselves.

Based on the number of hunters and hikers that get found dead every year, I tend to think that perhaps a lack of preparation and forethought might be contributory. Just humbly trying to plant a seed.

Regards, Jim