Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters JOC: Range Accuracy vs Hunting Accuracy

Lately I've been reading some Jack O'Connor books. This was spurred by the recent thread asking for favorite books, which prompted me to pay Amazon a bunch of money...

Anyways, this is the first time I've delved in JOC's writing in any depth, and it's been illuminating, to say the least. I've learned that the accusations leveled against JOC as a 270 whore are unjustified, for instance. And I've also learned that unlike many modern writers, JOC was pretty frank about the kind of expectations a hunter should have in the field.

For instance, he's unabashed about describing his missed shots, or the shots he and others took that wounded game. You won't find many modern writers owning up to such things in print (or on video) and the "hunting shows" on TV are even worse (how many times have we seen an animal clearly gut-shot with an arrow sticking out of its flank that is found allegedly only a few moments later dead on the ground?).

And I have to say that JOC's views on hunting accuracy aren't far from my own, but I'd like to hear what others have to say.

JOC wrote in the 1970's: "Shooting at game animals under hunting conditions is not the same as shooting from a benchrest-or settled donw in a sling on a target range. Under hunting conditions there are few people who can keep all their shots in a one-foot circle at a hundred yards, and a two-foot circle at 200 yards... When you get down to it, anyone who can keep all his shots in a two-foot circle at two hundred yards is not a bad shot."

Keep in mind that JOC was writing this near the end of his life, after 50+ years of hunting, and having personally shot and killed far more animals than most hunters could hope to kill. And you also have to keep in mind that this 1-foot-at-100/2-foot-at-200 rule of thumb was something that he applied to his own shooting. And while the rifles he was writing about over the course of his career were hardly the MOA tack-drivers that everybody (ahem) hunts with nowadays, most of his rifles were capable of shooting 1.5 inch groups or better at 100 yards.

Note that he's not saying "some" of one's shots on game. He said ALL of one's shots.

FWIW, I've worked "sight-in" days at my club range for years, and in my experience, most of the folks who take rifles into the woods are hard-pressed to keep their shots within minute-of-whitetail, never mind minute of angle. If JOC's rule is applied to such folks, it's a miracle any of them ever bring home winter's meat. But bring it home they do, and from the sounds of repeater rifle fire in the deer woods on opening day, I'd say they do so more by luck and firepower than by accurate riflery.

I will also say that from my field experience, guys who have true MOA rifles that can shoot them to that standard off a bench do tend to have their bullets fly a bit wider than minute-of-angle in the field, myself included. I wish I had started a detailed set of field notes from the early days, but I didn't. So I only have memory to rely on, and memory is notoriously unreliable and self-serving in us mortals. But at best guess I would say I probably fit into JOC's definition of a "not bad" shot. Yes, I can occasionally pull of some pretty fancy shots, but I've missed clean and wounded a few head of game as well. So, "not bad" is probably all I can honestly claim.

Now, I'm curious what our resident gun writers have to say about that: pro, con, or otherwise. Anybody else who cares to weigh in, feel free. But try to keep the BS to a minimum, please!

Not a gun writer but I agree with what he had to say.

And probably due to reading that years ago plus a strong mentor(dad had never shot a deer rifle before we bought one or a deer) I just was taught to never take a shot I was not almost 1000% confident in. The chance of wounding was not worth not shooting.

I"ve pretty much stayed along those lines.

And I"m for some reason( see above I'm sure) just anal about accuracy and shot placement.

And yes I've muffed and missed a bit here and there. But I"m pretty much down to the point of not missing since I won't take a shot no matter the size of the game, unless I know its a slam dunk.

And trust me, its cost me a few times... once on a book mule deer, but felt it better not to fling one trying... I still sleep fine even though its the only mule deer book wise I'll ever see in my life. Probably at this point I"ll never shoot at another mule deer ever and don't even have one on the wall other than a small bow kill. Fine with me.

If Jack was referring to shooting offhand here, then I would tend to agree. That would be pretty poor shooting from the sitting position - from anyone.

No one shoots offhand anymore, they would rather pack around a set of shooting sticks and a light mountain rifle and talk about the weight they saved on their rifle...

Some of us do.....

Only offhand shots I recall were "finishers" on buffalo and a few at running hogs, otherwise like Shrapnel mentioned, shooting sticks or whatever I can use for me. My hunting accuracy consists of shooting sticks (or tree/branch) at one gallon jugs filled with water. I figure they're about the average kill zone for most animals I hunt.

While I can certainly keep my shots inside a foot, offhand, at 100 yards, at the range, I have missed shots in the field which I would have made if my shot had been within that 1 foot circle. Nerves, awkward positioning, out of breath, nerves again, were all factors.
In conversation the other day, I admitted that I don't expect too much from my hunting rifles. I want them to drive the bullet of my choice at a speed I find acceptable and I want to be able to reliably hit a deer sized target out to three hundred or so. This means I din't need a half inch rifle and a 1 1/2moa rifle, well sighted, will do evrything I need it to do. If it does happen to shoot sub-moa, well, I'm happy about it but that alone isn't what will make me choose that rifle for the hunt of the day. GD

My mentality says I"m the weak link. If thats the case, then the most help I get is the most accurate rifle I can have.

If you follow this... If I miss by 4 inches with a 1 inch gun, i might miss by 5. If I miss by 4 inches with a 4 inch gun I"ve missed by 8... there could be some difference on the animal, on results by the 3 inches of a "worse" hit. Or I could screw up and hit the head.

The rules at many ranges are a death to marksmanship. When you have to shoot off a bench it's hard to really learn how to shoot.
I have yet to have time for anything but a quick offhand shot when elk hunting. Granted the ranges in the dark timber are not great, but the idea of carrying a rest in that environment is laughable.

All things being equal, I'd always rather have a rest. I just don't find them very practical all the time. I did shoot off sticks for one animal and a fence post for another in S. Africa. The others I just shot offhand. Longest is a deer at 175, shortest is my elk this year at somewhere closer to 40.

The scientific method for summing errors is the Root Sum Square. If you have a 1" gun and 4" hold, you have a 4.12" solution. If you have a 4" gun and 4" hold, you have a 5.65" solution. Thus the idea that statistically there really is very little real world difference in .75" rifles and 1.5" rifles in real shooting circumstances. Yes, there is the one very rare occasion where the errors perfectly add up, but there is an equal percentage that the errors are actually cancelling each other out.

I have 3 blanks loaded up that I cycle through while sighting on various targets. Repeat a few times a night for a month prior to hunting and the sight picture really steadies out. Likewise, if I don't prepare, I know my shots will be further limited.

DocRocket: Jack O'Connor was a major influence on my Hunting philosophy and dedication.
I think I have a complete set of Jack O'Connors books, and his novels - something of which I am very proud.
It's been SO long since I shot at a game animal standing/off hand that I actually do not remember ever doing so - if I ever did?
I went through some phases through my 5 1/2 decades of Hunting - starting with shooting game animals from the sitting position with a carefully adjusted military type sling then trying more prone shots again with a carefully adjusted sling and then (and continuing to this day) I now ALWAYS carry my Big Game Hunting Rifles equipped with Harris Swivel Type bi-pods and slings!
I to have worked MANY days at various ranges for "Hunter sight-in days" and spend MANY days each year at public ranges observing other shooters.
I sometimes worry about and feel sorry for the game animals due to a noticeable percentage (20% or maybe more) of shooters/Hunters who just are NOT competent to a level with their Rifles that I think is minimal for humane Hunting.
Sad that.
I do so wish that all "Hunters" would practice shooting more and not succumb to the temptations of today's trend toward "LONG range" shooting at game animals.
I live and Hunt in game rich country with long seasons and the numbers of wounded animals I see and find each year seems to me to be increasing of recent.
Indeed range accuracy is one thing and Hunting accuracy is another - Jack O'Connor was right about that also!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Seems to me if you do any amount of BG hunting, eventually you are going to be faced with a situation where you simply have to shoot from an unsupported, or less than ideal,shooting position.

Not that we don't do our best to quickly assume a rest or some support if we can, but it's going to happen because we are dealing with unpredictable animals and situations. So, it only makes sense to have some degree of proficiency in a variety of positions. Our own practice sessions will tell us what our proficiency levels are.

This does not mean you get wild eyed about it, but seems to me most of us know almost immediately which shots we can, and cannot make, on an animal.

I have a lot of shootign under my belt. Wife does too. Lots of it was offhand but in competition which is not the same as hunting.

Over the years I found that if I really started looking and thinking, that while I was trying to solidify the standing shot and get it to calm down enough to break the trigger, I often could have found SOME kind of rest to help just a bit.

As to the errors.... I understand the math, but I run on worst case... which is why I'm pretty picky about shots and just dont' care if I go home empty, rather that than mess one up.... passed a nice bull moose once, stayed on him for almost an hour or so one morning trying to get a good solid shot... he walked off... I waited, actually until dark that night to see if they would come out of the thicket they went into... yes I had shots that morning, nothing I was 200% confident in...
At least in that case, 2 days later I had a mostly wide open 125 yard kneeling shot that took the neck. I'd have let him walk again if I had not had a clear shot in all the old burn timber too.

Re the dummy shells, that is one of the BEST if not the best idea for training to ever come along.

Thankfully I don't have to deal with ranges... that would suck. Though sometimes I want to be at a range during deer season to check things so I don't spook the deer off our place....

I have passed every shot at elk I've ever had, in timber, just nothing reliably comfortable.

prm, how did you get within 40 yards of that bull elk. The story man. powdr

My first moose was such... 125ish steps... offhand. Was the only choice and a quick choice... bull was going to leave. I put the gun up and knew i'd have to make a choice. But they are so big it was easy and I was not out of wind at the time...

I still think that most times you benefit more from practicing field expedient shooting....

And in hindsight had I been thinking that morning... I could have quickly sat down and popped a shot off as quickly and more accurate... it did not dawn on me that quickly... though a knee or butt would have been damp or wet...

+1 Bob. Good post. My experience mirrors yours in the fact that while I always desire a rest, there have been times and I'm sure there will be more to come, where a rest just isn't possible if I'm to take a shot. Therefore, offhand is what you have. I've missed a few of those offhand shots and I've connected as well. The circumstances are always different though. Because of this, I try to practice offhand as well as sitting, prone, off rests, etc. when I can.

Doc, good post about JOC. I've found that those that criticize JOC the most are usually the people who have hardly, if ever, read his stuff. Even though the man has been dead for almost 40 years now, it's always amazing to me just how much knowledge he had and how much it still applies today.

JOC did not specify offhand shooting; rather, he specifically stated ALL a hunter's shots need be considered.

O'Connor describes many of his own shots, and and for the most part these seem to have been taken from supported or seated positions.

I agree, although with the caveat this applies to competent, experienced shooters, and there are a lot of guys out there in the hunting field (and perhaps one or two here on the 24HCF) who are neither competent nor experienced.

Perhaps another way to think of JOC's quote in the OP is that until a hunter can meet those standards, he's not a guy he'd call a "not bad shot"... or if you remove the double negative, he's saying you are a bad shot. And until a hunter can say he's capable of hitting at least that standard, he will continue to be a bad shot.

I've seen a lot of guys who think they're pretty good shots make some pretty bad shots on game. I think JOC's point was something along these lines.

IIRC he was a strong proponent of taking a seated position and using a sling wherever possible, explaining how it could be quickly assumed and would get the rifle above most brush or intervening obstacles. IOW, take the steadiest position you can.

He was far more a fan of placement than power, albeit given "enough" power.

Jeff you're an experienced shot....you knew right away you could do it.


Doc good thread!

Doc,

I've seen a large number of hunters shoot rifles, but making a guess about what the average group of the shooting public at 200 yards would be just that, a guess. I know if you count Joe Average with his see through mounts, no-zero-holding scope, lack of training and zero practice, then the average group size at 200 would be pretty sad.

There are a lot of MOA rifles (and more sub MOA than ever) but not a lot of MOA shooters from field positions. Most hunters I've seen have too much gun and have had far too little practice. Most practice from field positions only rarely - if ever.

Bob,

Shrapnel was being facetious when he posted "nobody shoots offhand anymore."

We've shot Richardson's ground squirrels together here in Montana on several occasions, and Shrap makes it a point to shoot a lot of them offhand. They're pretty small targets, as even a mature "gopher" is only about 10" long by 2" across, and younger ones are aboiut half that size. Plus, normally you're not getting a shot at the entire gopher. He hits far more than he misses out to 100 yards.

I am not too bad myself. On one of the occasions when we shot together my first shot killed one at around 75 yards. He thought it was an accident, but then I did it again.

Eileen prefers offhand-height shooting sticks, and is pretty deadly with 'em.

John I knew he was being facetious.....I could tell the way he put it.

With the volume of shooting you guys do on PD's I know you all aren't on your bellies all the time.

Don't have PD's here but on big wood chuck farms in NE, I used to break up the day by strolling the field edges and shooting of hand now and then.

It's just what pops up. Three of the last 5 bucks I have killed were all shot off hand at 50-80 yards....just the nature of things I guess.

Much more than me I'm sure. I shot .22s a lot as a kid and did a couple years of target shooting in college, but nothing big. I'm always open to suggestions.



Completely agree. The only real point is that it is the shooter not the .5 or 1.5 rifle that matters most in the equation.



I wanted to ensure I would automatically cycle the bolt after the shot prior to a trip to Africa. It has served me well. One note of caution, the blanks will cycle easier than a just fired round so I had to continue to make sure I used a good grip when cycling the bolt even though I don't need to with the blanks.

I knew it once I put the gun up. I also know some days 50 yards is rough due to conditions, body reactions, NPA missing, out of air and so on.... But then I still strive in my stupid head, that I'm trying to hit a postage stamp.... not a boiler room.

Only thing to suggest, perfect practice makes perfect. And for hunting thats not target shooting.

Although smallbore rimfire hunter matches seemed to help some. But IMHO they make you sloppy on aiming points....accepting a hit anywhere...

The loose nut behind the butt is almost always the most important. But extra accuracy never hurts. Of course if you do the whole body flinch, it makes no difference at all.....If you haven't done a whole body flinch you are missing out..... heck sometimes we could do it and still not break the trigger, if we were REALLY lucky...

Good post Bob. 99% of my shots are taken from the off hand position. It's been that way since I was a little kid hunting jacks in the sage till now. Still one of my favorite positions. I don't have a problem keeping 5 shots inside a 1' circle at 200 yards. Actually more like 8", but who's counting and the OP wanted the bs to be kept to a minimum...

I'm an archery hunter who just happens to carry a rifle.

Truth is I was stalking a few bulls in some thick timber. I saw a 5x5 walk down the hill to my right and at ~30 yds he saw me, turned and jumped a few steps to my front. While I was watching him the 6x6 literally appeared to my right and to this day I have no idea how he got there!

That's excellent shooting.

in highpower, used to be only with irons too, but thats changed a bit....

200 yards a perfect score, which was rare, was 20 shots into 6 inches.

But 15 shots into that 6 inches was not uncommon.

I was never good at offhand. I could keep all 20-22 in 12 inches at 200 easily. But generally around 10-12 in 6 inches or less.

I shoot / have shot NRA silhoutte matches both HP and smallbore and am master class in both. which means I shoot offhand way better than most ever thought about . When hunting I try not to shoot offhand , I take advantage of any support I can.

My brother and I were out shooting gophers recently too. We shot about 90% off-hand out to 50 yards with 22s. We contemplated what that would translate into shooting deer off-hand. Difference is we would need to be sure to put the bullet in the vitals on deer.

I should point out this was with a peep sight. I am sure i could have seen them at longer ranges with a scope, but doubt I would hit much better.

That is my way of thinking as well (not that I'm such a great offhand shot). This gets into a discussion of ethics and opinions which I try to avoid, but I always figured the Shooter practices as much as possible to become the best shot possible, then when he becomes the Hunter he gets as close as possible and makes every effort to make the shot as much of a gimme as possible. I.e., the hunt is one thing, the shot ending the hunt should be as much of a foregone conclusion as it can be. And we all know that even under the best of circumstances, that "foregone conclusion" is not always as foregone as we anticipated.

Just a Hunter,

My wife and I usually do some of our gopher shooting with open-sighted .22's, and even though we're in our 60's, can usually manage to get plenty out to around 50 yards. Eileen normally uses a lever-action Henry (though she also has a very accurate Savage 29B that gets some use), while I take my Winchester 62B. The tube magazines sometimes come in handy when gophers charge....

Shooting offhand and double-action, as often as possible are the secrets to success.

Maybe not success in life as a whole, but you'll shoot more better than most.




Dave

Dave,

A some of us do want to be more better!

A reasonable amount of alcohol also helps.





Dave

There's 1,000 other things going on when shooting at stuff with heartbeats vs paper.

And that little [bleep] named Murphy!

Hmm... thats interesting, you and I have similar backgrounds, and have similar results, and come to the same conclusion, spend a few seconds getting any rest you can, rather than none at all.

Wonder how that happened.

Same here.... Shot a lot of NRA Hi-Power back in the 1990's with my M-1A and did most of my practicing for it from offhand. But in the hunting fields I'll take any rest I can find, if time allows it because my heart might be pounding, or a lot of other reasons. Bottom line is: Under field conditions my accuracy, on average, is a lot better from some kind of rested position. If I'm shooting at game I want all the accuracy help I can get. Accuracy.... It's the name of the game.

If I know it to be the case I coudl even care less if the game moves off further, and then stops, as I KNOW I can make a shot given a rest, without a doubt, vs a freehand one...

I often think, that when competitors comment, that while they may be average or even above average offhand shooters, its not the 90-95% of the offhand shot results that bother them, its the fact that no one is 100% when offhand and why risk it....

Obviously if I knew that offhand would net me ONLY 2 results, dead kill or clean miss, it wouldn't bother me to use it, misses don't bother me much at all.

Wounded and not finding them does. Maybe its why the older I get the harder I work at finding wounded animals for folks and actually have a damn fine track record of it... one lost in the last 5 years or so... of all the ones that no one else could find. And I think if they had not stomped all over that deer before calling Tiger and I, we'd have found that one too, alive but could have bayed it up.

I had to laugh at the "when gophers charge". I said the same thing when those little rascals run right at you like they are charging. Mine is a Win. 9422. Just took a gopher at ~ 30 yards a little bit ago that was eyeing the yard.

Excellent post, Doc. It was JOC's writings that got me started using the sitting position and the military style shooting sling many years ago.
It really helped out over the years. Killed a buck at about 300 yds. way back in the late 60's from a sitting position. Killed my last desert buck at 25-40 yds. on the run using both a sitting position and a shooting sling. Yes, I'd could have tried a standing position, but I wasn't sure how my attempts to hit him would be and a sitting position didn't take much longer to assume.
Two things have always impressed me about field shooting vs. bench shooting. Game tends not to stand around much. So the faster one can get the shot off, the better one's chances of getting the shot off at all. When bench shooting, one has all the time we want to fire the rifle. Unfortunately, that can lead to some bad habits.
I can consistantly hit an 8 inch bull at 100 yds. much faster by going into a sitting position w/ a Ching Sling, than trying to do it off hand. That's because I settle down much faster.
Another thing that helps alot more than I ever thought it would is some extra rifle weight. Unless I'm shooting from prone, over a rest like a pack, it makes alot more difference than I ever thought it would.
BTW, in the Outdoor Life Shooting Book, published in 1957, JOC points out that while the .270 was his favorite, it wasn't his only favorite. He pointed out that at that time he had three .270 rifles. But he had three 30'06 rifles. And, as he put it, that's exactly how he felt about it. E

I've had more than one guy tell me that they aren't very good on targets but are crack shots on game. This is usually at a public range where they couldn't keep three shots on a pie plate at a hundred yards.

deflave may have been suggesting alcohol in jest, (maybe no). Years ago, at police matches the Border Patrol guys had a "cooler". They often won. They claimed about a two-three beer buzz made for calm nerves. We TEXAS guys would have been fired for drinking on the job. One of my friends visited a friendly doc, who prescribed a tranquilizer so, as friend tells it, " On 50 yard slow fire (10 shots ten minutes) I was laying the shots in there. Just one problem. When the targets went away, I still had three in my revolver, but I didn't care."

So much for that brilliant idea.

Best,

Jack

I can see the calming stuff... if you've never had match with wind at the knees, you need to... crazy stuff. But once you figure it out mentally you become and remain one bad mofo.

RE guys that claim they are great on game and suck on paper.

I know a guy like that, but he never says a word. I've seen him a lot on my own range years ago, just was mediocre on paper. Such taht a 300 yard shot IMHO would be iffy.

I've seen him shoot game to. Flat amazing, long shots. Quick shots. Thread the needle shots. Never have seen him miss. Taking shots I wouldn't risk...

Not sure what that says, but often wondered if he wasn't a CIA "operative" secretly.... LOL.

Not this boy, I have rifles near by desk and practice dry firing offhand near everyday.

Those aren't crack shots.

They're lucky hunters.



Travis

That's not a joke at all. Atkins wrote about his tests and I've found them to be 100% accurate.

I've also read there was a "drinking tent" at many a match back in the day. Including Camp Perry.



Dave

One of my older friends in the outdoor-writing business was a serious handgun competitor for many years, his specialty some now-gone match shot with one hand at a bullseye target. Eventually he started to come down with a case of target panic, and consulted his doctor. The doc first asked if he drank, and Charlie said, "I never touch the stuff." The doc said well, that eliminated alcoholic shakes, but suggested just a little alcohol before a match might help.

Charlie tried several kinds of liquor, thanks to various friends, and found he could stomach Christian Brothers brandy better than anything. Some experimentation showed that drinking X amount (from what he said probably a couple of shots) around 15-20 minutes before he was scheduled to shoot helped the most. But he had to get the shooting DONE then, because 15-20 minutes later he was pretty snockered. His wife was helping tell the story, and said if they had to leave within an hour or two after a match she always had to drive.

One day he shot in a BIG match, and by that time he and his wife has the formula down so well they'd buy a pint of Christian Brothers and mark each of the dose-levels on the label with a pen. He took his dose and shot, and then went to sit with some friends.

Within a few minutes, however, somebody came on the loudspeaker and asked if Mr. ---------- (my writer buddy) would please come to the scorer's tent. By that time he had difficulty standing up, so his wife and a friend took him, each holding an arm.

When they got to the scorer's tent, the head scorer asked his name, which my friend managed to pronounce, and the scorer congratulated him, saying he'd just shot a new national record. Then he looked at the official form asked what team Charlie shot with. His wife immediately said, "Christian Brothers!"

When you can hit a rock in the air, you have become handgunner first class...

Nothing improves a guys shooting better than lying.




Travis

I haven't fired a rifle from a rest in at least a year. I'm always shooting offhand.

Well, that's freaking stupid.....obviously so. Not surprised you'd condone it though.

The way to do it is to wait until it's at its apogee. It will slow and then for a split second be motionless in the air before falling back down. That's when you hit it. I used to bust a lot of bottles in the air back when leaving glass strewn over the shooting area was normal. Cans aren't optimum as the wind will move them but rocks take a nice predictable trajectory.

Also used to hit pennies thrown in the air with a .22 rifle after some guy showed me how to do that.

Must have been a great photographer to grab that photo!

I especially like the composition and color balance....

I'm not surprised you've never read a book.

I'm also not surprised you can't go 9 for 10 offhand on an 18" gong @ 220yds.

Feel free to roll film and prove me wrong.



Dave

I think the photographer was drinking Tumbleweed...




Dave

Which always provides great color AND taste balance....

I should know not to look at some posters crap.....

That's even a more stupid idea.

Well there's a shock.




Travis

Childs play. I used to have a railroad tie plate hanging hanging from a chain in a tree 250 yards from my back porch. Used to step out and shoot at it all the time, always offhand. Once I figured out what branch on the tree to hold on for elevation I could ring it 8 out of 10 times with an iron sighted .22 on a calm day. Don't beleive it GFY. It's the truth. Went field walking tonight with my .22 magnum and shot 3 woodchucks. One at 40 yards, one at 97 and one at 110. The 40 yarder was offhand, the other two I took kneeling. 3 shots. 3 dead chucks. All head shot.

That's a really cool made up story.

Now pull up a chair and sit next to the Texan.



Travis

I'm not a liein' POS goat fuggin' drunk like you.

You're also not a gunsmith.

And you sure as fugk can't shoot offhand as well as I can.



Travis

Pretty sure I could hold my own against you any day from any position. The fact that I had the highest offhand average in the league when I shot NRA registered 4 position smallbore makes me think your boasting is founded in fantasy as usual.

The fact that I hit it and we only had one take is even better...

We had a guy in our club who couldn't, under normal circumstances, hit a bull in the ass with a scoop shovel when shooting offhand. He was a short skinny fella and nervous as all get out- one of those guys who was always moving even when standing still. Before the start of each relay at our twice a month smallbore silhouette matches he would go over to the trunk of his car and take a couple good slugs of cheap jug wine, step up to the line, and clean our clocks. The range officers knew what he was up to and as long as he didn't get carried away or do something stupid they let him go. I never did see him actually drunk.

Sounds like he had the right idea. If you get drunk, you shoot worse.

I think many have discovered the same when it comes to golf or shooting pool.





Travis

I actually do better at 'moving' targets off hand. There's something about fluid motion that's much easier than a stationary (small) target.

IF, IF I have any option I never 'choose' to shoot offhand.

I also carry 'light weight' Stoney Point shooting sticks. I've had them several years and MOST of the time I get shots FROM the sticks. They work and they boost confidence.


Jerry

We heard Al Biesen passed away at 100 years old. His legend will live on. JOC was a lucky man to have hunted with Als masterpieces.

I believe that people aught to shoot groups standing with cross sticks if they use them or without sticks to see what accuracy they will have in the field. If they only go by bench rest accuracy off sand bags, they should bring the bench and sand bags when their hunting.

I site in and work up loads from a bench rest. Then I practice with a stick and offhand to see how poor I really am. I've noted I shoot about 1-2 inches higher and groups spread some in offhand at 100 yards than with the rifle on a bench rest. With a shooting stick is much better.
This might be startling or disappointing to anyone who hasn't tried it before. I have a whole different head/rifle/elbow orientation on the bench than offhand. I just accept it and practice.
Offhand an hasty sling or the offhand position I was taught at PI help.
Public ranges usually won't let you shoot with a stick or offhand though. Another good reason to join your local club.

I find the biggest impediments to successfully shooting big game offhand are being out of breath from walking hills, and buck fever.

The buck fever can even be terminal with a good rest!

Practice like you hunt, using realistic shot presentations, taken from realistic field positions. Know your gear and know how to manage it well while afield. Push your gear and yourself in practice to prove your limits, and discipline yourself to stay within these limits when taking shots on game.

In the above context, shooting offhand on game is not taboo. Some of the best hunting experiences I've had in my life involved some form of roving beautiful country while shooting game that was driven out of cover. Be it small game, upland game, deer driven from cover, boar busted from the rocks, etc. I've done this with shotgun, carbine, rifle, handgun, and even bow and arrow. Quite a number of times the shot presentation required executing an offhand shot, to include using a rifle. I've always favored the excitement and joy from the dynamics of such hunts vs the stagnation of sitting on one spot all day waiting for the game to pass by. The most cherished were w/ a self bow made out of a stave from a tree my Grandfather felled. And I guarantee I cannot keep each shot inside a foot circle at 100yards w/ that bow.

Al passed away on the 14th I believe, but he was 98, not 100.

Not sure why anyone would shoot off hand when you could (and should) be using sticks. They will double your effective range,and triple it if your sitting with a good back rest. I never shoot without them unless shooting prone. Shot a couple of shots today kneeling off my sticks today at 90yds for practice with my 243. Both shots were centered and an inch apart. I shoot like this weekly to 200yds. Probably a 3" average at that range with sticks. If a 2foot circle was my benchmark,I'd find another hobby.

Because they have mastered the skill, they know how to shoot a rifle, and executing well aimed shots on certain shot presentations would be handicapped if sticks were used.

That really sucks you can't shoot offhand.



Travis

I shoot well off hand,just not as well as with sticks. Ive shot a lot of coyotes at 200 to 250 yds off sticks that I wouldn't have killed off hand. Same with deer and elk.

Are you actually from Texas, or are you just pretending to be from Texas?



Dave

South 150 miles from you. How are those geovids?

A lot better than my memory.

Obviously.




Travis

I'd agree with you there. I'd also add to that (based on my own experience) being startled by something bounding out unexpectedly, and rushing your shot.

Often (not always) you've got more time than you think, and often too you can improve your odds by bracing up against a handy tree, or dropping to a kneel. Not always of course, and that is where practice plays a big part - getting that muscle memory working for you.

Should I take a drink because heavy traffic makes me nervous or I need to steady my nerves before driving in rush hour?
How about NASCAR drivers before a 500?
Anyone condoning mixing guns and alcohol is one of the stupidest ideas there is. That's one thing that isn't a joke, nor a crutch. If you have to drink to get steady nerves, what made you so nervous to begin with? Work on that, then practice shooting sober.
Can't enjoy it without having a drink? You've got problems Bud.
Oh yes, if your hands shake because you need a drink, you should be in rehab.

Why would shooting or driving in heavy traffic make you nervous?



Travis

Try driving in Minneapolis during the first snowstorm of the winter. I get nervous and have lived here all my life.

Don't drink and drive.

In Minneapolis.




Travis

I'm more of a walker than a sitter so most of my shots are offhand. I don't use bipods or sticks.

Killed this deer from the kneeling position at about 110 yds away.



I use the kneeling position far more than any other shooting position when hunting big game and varmints. For coyote calling I use a Harris bi-pod.

I really assumed by this day and time folks would know that an offhand zero and a slung up sitting or prone zero can be different.

And that just because the gun is on for me, doesnt' mean its on for you.

My best friend and I are consistently 3/4 inch off of each other. I forget which direction but its horizontal.... not enough to matter at 100 though even with head shots, but we've confirmed it often enough.

Doc, you should have posted a WTB in the classified for the O'Connor books as chances are some fire members would have sold you copies, myself included.



Back in the 1960s I completed the SEVEN-LESSON RIFLE SHOOTING COURSE found in O'Connor's COMPLETE BOOK OF RIFLES AND SHOTGUNS...Copyright 1961. It was a tough course especially shooting at targets inside of truck tires rolling down hills.

My take on this has always been I'd never try it. Just flat to much risk to wounding game which I think they don't care about.

I've shot moving targets, with the AR, and we used to have a match that was a blast at moving targets at 300, I got to where I knew how much of my front post to lead with and could really rattle em off.

That being said, the shooter moving, the gun moving, the game moving AND obstacles in the way... thats beyond my personal ethics by far.