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It's fairly simple to ferret-out those who have the most experience with actual game killing, and those wedded to their own biases based on very little experience with killing game, but a lot of toilet-side reading.
The former aren't especially hung up on cartridge/bullet combos, the latter ALWAYS are... Well, guilty as charged. I have spent a lot more time on the toilet than I have in Africa and Alaska combined. I hunted Africa with a borrowed 7mm Mauser and Alaska with my beloved 35 Whelen and 225 gr Partitions. My bookshelves are sagging with books written by Bob Hagel and Peter Capstick and others like Elmer Keith and Jack O Connor. I am hoping that Phil will write a book someday. I would love to read it. whelennut
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger! There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
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But that was back in the day when hunters understood the importance of shot placement, and took the time to learn to do it ! Would you let a hunter take a 300 yard poke at a bear? That magazine clipping says that is how long the shot was. I suppose they are big targets, but if I showed up for a BB hunt and my guide said nothing past 150 yards I'd say no problem.
I probably hit more elk with a pickup than you have with a rifle. I have yet to see anyone claim Leupold has never had to fix an optic. I know I have sent a few back. 2 MK 6s, a VX-6, and 3 VX-111s.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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But that was back in the day when hunters understood the importance of shot placement, and took the time to learn to do it ! Would you let a hunter take a 300 yard poke at a bear? That magazine clipping says that is how long the shot was. I suppose they are big targets, but if I showed up for a BB hunt and my guide said nothing past 150 yards I'd say no problem. Bob Chatfield-Taylor did a LOT of hunting.....far more than our average CF member,and on a few continents. He was an experienced guy. Ralph Young was a legend in SE Alaska. Doubt he would have allowed a great deal of risk. RCT shot constantly. I doubt there was any "poking" involved"... Pretty sure he killed grizzly with the 284 Winchester and 270 Winchester as well His early stuff on the 30-338 was always interesting reading...as was about anything he wrote. Not your average boob. That article showing the bear was a good one!
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Bore size is not a substitute for bullet placement and energy is no substitute for bullet performance.
AND Originally Posted By 458Win "It is the bullet, not the size of the bore or name on the barrel, that kills..." Just for a Reminder..... IMO Phil has been gracious, patient, & kind in responding during this thread. AND he is Qualified to answer....no? Thanks Jerry
jwall- *** 3100 guy***
A Flat Trajectory is Never a Handicap
Speed is Trajectory's Friend !!
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Campfire Outfitter
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What I want to know is why are these threads always about Brown Bear and not Grizzly? Don't sports go to Alaska for Grizz anymore? Growing up it seemed like the old writers mostly went after Grizzly when they bear hunted the Last Frontier. Now everything is Brownies.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Brown is a fish fed grizzly with a longer growing season than a grizzly.
Also bigger.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Campfire Oracle
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Bore size is not a substitute for bullet placement and energy is no substitute for bullet performance.
AND Originally Posted By 458Win "It is the bullet, not the size of the bore or name on the barrel, that kills..." Just for a Reminder..... IMO Phil has been gracious, patient, & kind in responding during this thread. AND he is Qualified to answer....no? Thanks Jerry This thread sure didn't need to be 15 pages long....could have been shortened to Phils post....
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
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Campfire Outfitter
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Brown is a fish fed grizzly with a longer growing season than a grizzly.
Also bigger. But has Interior Grizzly hunting gone out of vogue? A big Silvertip used to be the stuff of dreams, at least among the 20 th century writers and adventurers.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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What I want to know is why are these threads always about Brown Bear and not Grizzly? Don't sports go to Alaska for Grizz anymore? Growing up it seemed like the old writers mostly went after Grizzly when they bear hunted the Last Frontier. Now everything is Brownies. Oh great, now someone asks a question more difficult than the difference between arctic char and dolly varden. Which side of the Yukon River you're on when you pull the trigger has sometimes been used to answer the browny/grizzly question, BTW. IMO, they might as well use 'length of hibernation' in the equation also. The coastal grizzlies can get very large, and many of them are more blonde than grizzled. Nothing hard and fast; all the same species.
Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Boone and Crockett even has an arbitrary, perfectly straight line across a large part of southern Alaska. Below the line B&C considers the bears brown, even if they're 150+ miles from the nearest coast. Safari Club International considers them grizzlies in much of the same area.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Bore size is not a substitute for bullet placement and energy is no substitute for bullet performance.
AND Originally Posted By 458Win "It is the bullet, not the size of the bore or name on the barrel, that kills..." Just for a Reminder..... IMO Phil has been gracious, patient, & kind in responding during this thread. AND he is Qualified to answer....no? Thanks Jerry This thread sure didn't need to be 15 pages long....could have been shortened to Phils post.... Yeah, it could but what we'd miss the fun of conversing, arguing, criticizing, et.al. Jerry
jwall- *** 3100 guy***
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Speed is Trajectory's Friend !!
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If you read African Rifles and Cartridges by John Taylor he says "Is it going to be of much satisfaction to you to know that you have killed a charging lion with a low powered rifle if he has first succeeded in killing you? I very much doubt it." whelennut
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger! There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
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Campfire Ranger
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W nut -
I do hear ya!! In my mind low powered rifle would be LESS than an 06 >> SINCE many have used them effectively on LARGE Browns.
In your quote - the lion/bear would be much more satisfied than I would be. grin
Jerry
jwall- *** 3100 guy***
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Jerry, I have told this story before but for my tenth wedding anniversary I convinced my wife we should go to Alaska and hunt caribou. The first day in camp I noticed that there was meat piled on a wooden pallet just a few feet from our tent. I had read a book that suggested you should never argue with a guide because it would ruin the trip. I decided to bite my tongue. That night I was awakened by some noise like walking on gravel. I thought my wife was grinding her teeth and I said something to her about it. I heard a loud woof and realized it was time to Lock and Load. There was a sow and two very large cubs right outside having a caribou buffet. My wife peeked out of her sleeping bag and asked if I was going outside but I replied that they might want to come inside and it was about to get noisy. Eventually I decided to take a picture and when the flash went off it looked like the Kentucky derby. I thought my 35 Whelen was overkill for caribou, but for three bears just a few feet away it seemed pretty pathetic. I wish I had a 400 Whelen that night. whelennut
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger! There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
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Jerry, I thought my 35 Whelen was overkill for caribou, but for three bears just a few feet away it seemed pretty pathetic. I wish I had a 400 Whelen that night. whelennut I can pretty well guarantee you that it would still have felt too small ! Unexpected Bears in the dark have that effect on people .
Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master Guide, Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor FAA Master pilot www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.comAnyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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Campfire Ranger
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Jerry, I thought my 35 Whelen was overkill for caribou, but for three bears just a few feet away it seemed pretty pathetic. I wish I had a 400 Whelen that night. whelennut I can pretty well guarantee you that it would still have felt too small ! Unexpected Bears in the dark have that effect on people . whelennut & 458 - That's my first time to read that story and it sounds very exciting in a horror flick kinda way. I certainly don't know but seems RIGHT that at times like that a... 458 Win would be consoling !! Jerry
jwall- *** 3100 guy***
A Flat Trajectory is Never a Handicap
Speed is Trajectory's Friend !!
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Campfire Ranger
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Jerry, I thought my 35 Whelen was overkill for caribou, but for three bears just a few feet away it seemed pretty pathetic. I wish I had a 400 Whelen that night. whelennut I can pretty well guarantee you that it would still have felt too small ! Unexpected Bears in the dark have that effect on people . I hate it when the porcupines start rummaging around in the dark; the feeble flashlight beam doesn't always provide the right perspective. Speaking of bears in the dark, that kind of reminds me of an evening years ago with my 6 year-old son. We were coming down out of the hills on an ATV with the first load of moose meat. It was evident that the second load would involve darkness both ways, about 7-8 miles round trip with a couple mud wallows to negotiate. I asked my young companion if he wanted to put the tent up on the beach (the bear tracks on the sand looked old....at least 24 hours. ), or try to push the boat out at low tide and run 4-5 miles back along the coast to our cabin. I knew I had a smart kid when he opted for the cabin, a comforting boat ride even in virtual blackness. (I could have made soup with my pants for a week. )
Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
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Campfire Ranger
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I certainly don't know but seems RIGHT that at times like that a... 458 Win would be consoling !! Jerry Apparently no one caught my drift...... THE consoling 458 W would be NO LESS than Mr. Phil!... Jerry
Last edited by jwall; 04/26/16.
jwall- *** 3100 guy***
A Flat Trajectory is Never a Handicap
Speed is Trajectory's Friend !!
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Question for Phil. Do you keep statistics on how many shots it takes to anchor a brown bear? It would be interesting to know if caliber made any difference. If the hunter was flinching it actually might make it worse to use the big rifle. Years ago I had two businessmen who were customers in the gunshop I worked for. One used a 375 H&H and the other used a 458 Magnum. They were after elephants. They told me that the elephant shot with the 375 died a lot faster than the elephant who was shot seven or eight times with the .458. The owner had a huge black and blue mark on his shoulder.
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger! There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.
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Jerry, I thought my 35 Whelen was overkill for caribou, but for three bears just a few feet away it seemed pretty pathetic. I wish I had a 400 Whelen that night. whelennut I can pretty well guarantee you that it would still have felt too small ! Unexpected Bears in the dark have that effect on people . Nothing helps the movement of a morning constitution quite like waking up and finding grizz tracks down a streambed, circled around your tent, and then on down the streambed.....
Last edited by Akbob5; 04/26/16.
Bob Enjoy life now -- it has an expiration date. ~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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