Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles Letter from Jack O'Connor about the 270

I stumbled across this snippet of a letter that Mr. O'Connor wrote and I wanted to share it with those who may not have seen it.

I do own a 270 and for the most part I'm happy with it, but it is my back up rifle (along with number of others) on deer and Elk hunts.

With that out of the way, WOW 180-grain Barnes bullet? I just checked Midway USA and although there was no 180-grain Barnes, Woodleigh does make one. I also saw a few 170-grainers.

Second, when I got into reloading years ago, I was told that each caliber have a certain weight bullet (or range of bullets) that work best for that specific caliber. For the 30-06 it was 150 - 180 grain bullet; for the 284/7mm that was the 140 grain, and for the 270 that was the 130 grain. Folks on the fire have convinced me over the years that with newer technologies (bullets/powders), that logic is flawed. Not wrong just not accurate. I like Mr. O'Connors comment about the 130 and wish I could ask him today if he still felt the same. I sure he would still be shooting a 270 :-)

Finally, the loads he posted I'm going to assume, were for IMR4831 from back in the day... because Hodgdon's online reloading site lists a range of 52.0 - 57C for IMR and 54.0 - 60C for the Hodgdon's version. Each starting load gave vel/lbs of 2,822/46,600 PSI and 2,747/45,500 PSI respectively. Here again I am going to assume Mr. O'Connor was using PSI and not CUP. Please correct me if I got this wrong.

Like I said, I found the article really fascinating and wanted to share it. I have the utmost respect for folks like Jack O'Connor (and many here on the Fire).

Please enjoy and tell me what you think.

-HaYen

Cautionary note: Authors back in that day often used CUP numbers and called them PSI, because they thought the copper crusher method yielded PSI numbers.

Original Barnes no doubt, I'm sure Mr. O'Connor had passed before the X Bullets came out.

What JO said then still rings true, and todays tough 130 monometals just reinforce his words.
Boddington also subscribes to the idea that ones favorite and familiar .270win deer rifle is likely
to be the more ideal choice of rifle to take to Africa for PG.
Elmer Keith wrote a personal letter to JO stating that he honestly considered the 270win perfectly
adequate for elk, Keith himself took a similar bore size custom rifle (7mm) to punch holes in African game.

I have killed a bunch of elk with a 30-06. I have always been a fan of the 06. I came late into the 270 camp, but once I got there, I haven't shot my 25-06 since. I am still a believer in large cartridges for elk, but feel that the 270 with a 130 grain Ballistic Tip is the nuts for deer sized game.

New bullets have improved the capabilities of older cartridges, but not as much as many people think. Being a rifleman is more important than having an accurate rifle with a premium bullet...

Yayen:

That letter is contained in the Pet Loads article on the 270 Winchester ,written by Ken Waters,and published in the first publication of Handloader Magazine. #1 as I recall.I have it here somewhere.

The letter from JOC arrived after the Waters article was finished and was added by Dave Wolfe of Wolfe Publishng, thus JOC's reference to "Dave".

The article dates back to the 60's IIRC. Don't have the article in front of me.

The "4831" that JOC refers to is the old original WW II stuff distributed by Bruce Hodgdon, and is NOT IMR 4831 (which was faster),nor the later Scottish made stuff which replaced the WW II stuff under Hodgdon's label.

The original WW II surplus 4831 seems to have been a slower powder than any succeeding 4831, a lot slower than the IMR version, and maybe a grain slower than the current stuff. To me it behaves more like todays 7828 but that's an observation not a scientific test..

But I have worked with all those powders in the 270 Winchester.

Actually as I recall the only "H4831" JOC ever worked with and published data for was the old WW II stuff,far as I recall from his writings.

I notice his refernce to the Bronze point and Remington data....apparently back in those days both JOC and Warren Page had good relations with Remington,since the Remington lab seems to have shared pressure data with them; on the 270 with JOC and with Page on the 7mm Mashburn Super.

The 180 gr referred to by JOC is the old 180 gr Barnes bullet, cooper tubing/lead core bullet made by Fred Barnes a long time before Randy Brooks acquired Barnes bullets and dreamed up the "X".

Did JOC get those velocities? Yes I believe he did, having seen them myself from SOME 270's,and some have been mine....most especially you never knew what you'd see with a 24" barreled pre 64 M70 Winchester,and I have seen a couple nudge a shade over 3200 fps with 130's. I have seen a shade over 3100 from quite a few 22" barrels but that will vary a lot with the barrels.

Also I found out, early on, that with the more modern H4831 the classic 60 gr load is likely to give no more than high 2900's with the 130 gr bullets and a 22" barrel.

All moot to me as my favorite load in three 270's is 61 gr of the current H4831,WWLR primer, and 130 Nosler Partition, these being both the current style and the old screw machine bullet. One of those rifles gives about 3120 fps with both bullets.Both drop animals like sash weights.

I love the old 270. Safe haven when I don't GIS about ballistic gack and just want to shoot animals.....

I used to use some 195 grain Barnes copper tubing/lead core bullet in my 7-.300 Wea. They were fantastic penetraters.

Ringman so I hear but I never used them myself.

Bob,

Thank you thank you thank you. Folks like you, the Ringman, and Mr. O'Connor, even though he is gone, make the Fire the great site it is today. A LOT of information I didn't know.

The current on-line edition of Handloader Magazine contains a copy of the first edition of Handloader 50 years ago. The Pet Loads article is on the 270 and the O'Connor letter fragment is published there as an comment in the longer article by Ken Waters.

The print edition of Handloader includes the reprint of #1 also. It is certainly a good read.

I'm using Reloder 17 with 130 and 150 gr bullets in my 270 Win now.

Good results; worth a try.

That would be correct!



Hayen glad I could be of some help.

HaYen -

BobinNH does NOT need me to validate nor verify what he posted.

I was loading 4831 (surplus) when the old MS stock ran out. Immediately the 'new' stuff did not have the same properties, virtues of the surplus. After a few yrs and different LOTS of the new H4831 I left it and began using IMR 7828 and STILL use it today.

It is indeed very similar to surplus 4831 and in my dealings with it, many lots, I 'think' it's a tad bit slower burning than Surplus 4831.

I haven't had any trouble getting 3100 + with 130s in different 270s AND case life is plenty good. NOTE - I've never had a 24" bll 270, all mine are/have been 22".

I bought my first 270 W before I knew JOC was championing the cartridge. IIRC it was 1976 (?). I found JOC's writing quite interesting since I already was using the 270.

Thank You for sharing that portion of his letter. It's always good to RE read a bit of nostalgia.

Thnx

Jerry

I'm finding current H4831SC (called AR2213SC here) to be very very slow, almost like AR2217 (think its called H1000 there) and I need 62g of the stuff to crack 3050 odd fps with 130s in a 23.5 inch barrel.

As a result I went to H4350 which was good, but the R17 experiement has paid good dividends for accuracy and speed for me.

Why don't more people understand this?

hobnob that IS pretty pokey for a 62 gr load!

Bob, I was finding the same with heavy 30-06 loads; couldn't get enough AR2213SC in the case to even break 2650fps from a 24 inch bbl, with a 180g Interlock or NBT.

R17 is my go-to there now as well.

Bob I bet tons of H4831 got burned in the 30/06, and other cartridges for which it was not exactly optimum, mostly because it was abundant, available, and cheap. They'd stuff it into everything..

The 270 will swallow everything from 4064 to RL25 IME with the medium-slow to slow showing best with bullets 130 gr and up.

I've only used R17 in the 270 with the 110 Barnes where it did well. I'd expect the powder to do good in the 30/06, the 338 Win Mag, and likely the 375 H&H as well.

Personally I defaulted to H4350 in the 30/06 with no reason to change so far.

Bob, what powder would you use for a 150gr. partition load in the old 270 win? I'm like you and love H4350 in the 30-06. It's so damn resistant to temp swings that it isn't even funny. I'd like to get the same results from my 270 with 150gr. partitions. I shot that rifle yesterday and the velocity fluctuates quite a bit when the temp goes up or down.

bsa: Just like the 130, with the 150 in the 270 I would start with H4831.

The other "old" JOC load was 58.5 WW II surplus H4831 with the 150 Nosler Partition for a bit over 2900 fps from a 22" barrel. He used that load in Africa, India, and other hot places without incident.

I used the same charge from the 22" Douglas barrel of a Dale Goens rifle and it gave the 150 gr a hair over 3000 fps.

The H4831 we have today is a bit faster burning....(I think..some are finding it slower but I have not seen this) than WW II version.

I also would try 7828,but have only used it with 130's myself.

Bob,

My present lot of H4831SC is somewhat slower than my remaining batch of the original mil-surp powder.

The only .270 I own anymore is one of the recent O'Connor "Tribute" Model 70 Featherweights. As an experiment, I tried some of the original H4831, side-by-side with the new stuff, with 130-grain Hornady Interlocks, using the same 61.0 grain charge. The old H4831 got 3118 fps, while H4831SC got 3029. This was during the same range session, over the same chronograph, with the two strings shot one right after the other. The rifle will easily handle 58.5 grains of H4831SC with the 150 Partition, and velocity isn't quite 2900 from the 22" barrel.

I suspect the answer depends on the manufacturing lot of each powder.

John thanks that's interesting. I have so much of the H4831 that I have not purchased any recently. I have been using the 61 gr load for at least a decade now with the 130 NPT.

If some lots are slower now we may be working our way back to how it used to be ? Looks like maybe even slower, as you guys are seeing! pretty neat!

About 2 years ago I used a then-current batch of H4831SC, 61.5g of it with a 150g SST. It was so compressed it pushed the bullet out a little overnight.

Compared to many manuals I thought the velocity was very mild. 2990fps from the 23.5" bbl.

When I mention manuals, I mean that I don't remember ever seeing a 61+g load of that powder with a 150g bullet.

I worked up to the load gradually of course. Lighter powder charges had been very underwhelming.

You don't know what you don't know.

Bobnob: interesting because I have never seen that much H4831 recommended with a 150 gr bullet. The velocity is very good, too. Got a feeling lots of little things added up there...does the SST have short bearing surface maybe?

Other things to consider besides the powder are what kind of barrel was that? Were you throated on the long side? That's a barrel I would like to slug for groove diameter. A loose barrel and longsih throat can take heavier powder charges than a tighter barrel IME.

Little things we don't consider sometimes add up.

I finished up load development for my latest 270 shooting 150 gr Partitions. It got down to H4831 and H1000. 61.0 of H1000 was better than H4831 when I started shooting 5 shot groups. I use a drop tube and WW brass to get 61.0 in the case. Vel from my 24" Kimber is ~ 2925 ft/sec. IMR 7977 did fairly well as well.

I could use H4895, H4350, H4831, H1000 for the rest of my life and be really happy.

The 270 Win will utilize slower powders than we have come to accept as standard. H1000, RL25,7828 all work well IME.

bwinters good stuff!

Good info guys. Thanks... Any of you guys try magpro with a 150gr. partition? If so, how temp stable is that line of powder?? The Nosler reloading manual lists magpro as a good powder to use in the 270 with the 150gr. bullets.. I know there for a while, all I could find was magpro, IMR 4350 and H1000. Trying to find H4350 and H4831 was impossible, but now I'm seeing it on the shelves again.

I've not tried it in the 270 but did in a couple 7 mags. It gives advertised velocity but lost ~ 75 ft/sec between 60 and 30 for me. I quit using it.

Thanks Bill. That's useful information. Looks like I need to find some H4831.. Damn!!

Yeah I've mulled some of those things over in the past. I've never slugged the bore, but the throat isn't long. I can get into the lands with the 150g SST with the mag length a generous 3.375-ish.

The loose bore diameter is a possibility. I got around it by just adding more 4831, then going to H4350 before more recently with the R17.


Rifle is a Zastava aka Interarms X. It's an accurate rifle with 1.25moa with the worst of loads and a good 0.75 with a lot of loads.

It can be hard to figure sometimes why some barrels will take those kind of charges....but some do.

Keeps you guessing

Guys, it 'seems' to me that IMR 7828 is overlooked.
I suggest y'all give it a try.


Jerry

In this FN Mauser .270,I'm using 59.8 grs of RL-26,Federal 210 Match primer and a 150 gr Nosler Partition. Getting 3010 fps from the 22" barrel.

That's a beaut old rifle. If only those old guns could talk!

Good speed from R26 too.

Yeah,would love to stories of the hunts it's been on.

Here's the info/link.

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reload...ight=150&shellid=63&bulletid=367

Nice gun. I need to try some RL 26 what kind of compression are you getting with that load if any? I don't mind a compressed load as long as it isn't excessive.

None,IIRC.

Thanks, there are some really good powders coming out these days.

I never got 3000 fps w/150s in a 270 BUT

I did get -2950, so I doubt it's worth the effort.

Good job to you Ken.


Jerry

I'm happy with 2900fps from 150s out of a 23.5 inch bbl.

Currently using 150g Hotcors. Those things penetrate like a mo-fo!
In a wet newspaper test they out penetrated 400g Speers out of the 45-70 and 180g Interlocks out of the 30-06.

It was Fred Barker, in an article in Preciion Shooter maybe a decade ago, that started me trying Mag Pro, RL25 in the 270. Fred also used MRP II and some other newer slower powders in a 25" PacNor barrel on a a Mauser action.

He said we were missing the boat with the 270 by not trying powders slower than H4831. I think in terms of velocity with the stuff 140 and heavier he was right.

And guys using theses 165-170 gr VLD bullets will find that out shortly I think.

Yes Bob the 1-8 twist 270s are the next horizon. Heavy bullets; less muzzle velocity; greater downrange energy.

Good call mate.

I have some old 150g hot cores here. They've shot very well for me from several 270s. Even a M70 in 270 Weatherby. Do you have a pic of one recovered from the wet lap test? I'd like to see it. Hot cores have always been a favorite of mine.

Me too. I get a bit over 2900 but close enough (24" brl). That extra 50-75 ft/sec makes an 1" or so at 500 yards. I'd rather keep my face intact rather than chase the last 50 ft/sec.

Geez Ken. That's downright amazing. Nice rifle too. I love the old rifles. It seems more and more these days. I've come full circle again and just bought another m1917 yesterday. You gotta love those old Mausers, pre 64's, m1917's, and springfields.... Good thread guys. I'm surprised at some of these velocities you are getting with the good ol 150 gr. partition though. I've made up my mind, that's the only bullet I'm going to run in my 270. Until something changes my mind I guess...

RL26 is very good in my 7 WSM and 270 WSM. Plenty of speed and very little if any compressed loads. If I had a 270 Win I'd try it with 150's first. I've had good luck with it so far.

In this pic, top from left is the 150g Hotcor(270W); 400g Speer(45-70); 180g Interlock(30-06). Bottom from left is 100g Hotcor; 100g SGK; 117g Interlock (all from 250 Sav AI)...

Thanks for posting those. Looks good. Man that big Speer .45 is a whopper.